What ever happened to Hydrogen fuel cell automobiles??

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your original question implied that hydrogen is not abundant.

Free hydrogen (H2) is not abundant.

Not wasted energy: transferred it.

Wasted 20-30% to electrolyze water.
Another 40-60% was lost in the fuel cell.

 

[westwall]

Free hydrogen (H2) is not abundant.

Not wasted energy: transferred it.

Wasted 20-30% to electrolyze water.
Another 40-60% was lost in the fuel cell.

Correct, hydrogen bonds to things at the drop of a hat. The only place you see free hydrogen is in space, or storage tanks after a very expensive extraction process.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Correct, hydrogen bonds to things at the drop of a hat. The only place you see free hydrogen is in space, or storage tanks after a very expensive extraction process.

If the electricity was generated by burning natural gas, just used compressed natural gas in the vehicle, instead of adding extra, wasteful steps.

 

[Samofvt]

If the electricity was generated by burning natural gas, just used compressed natural gas in the vehicle, instead of adding extra, wasteful steps.

No duh. That's why I say carbon-based synthetic fuel will be the future of transportation and home heating. It is more energy-dense. You can build up on CH4 to create even more energy-dense fuel.

But what if you do not have "natural gas"? What if the natural gas gets depleted and all you have is nuclear-powered electricity? You will need to build your energy storage, or 'fuel', from something. Electrolysis of water to H2 is a required first step, and then that gets used to produce higher order carbon-based fuel. What is the best stopping point? Hydrogen Gas? Methane (natural gas)? or a higher order fuel?

The answer to this is what our infrastructure will need to be adapted to. I believe something close to our current gas/diesel fuel is the optimum.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No duh. That's why I say carbon-based synthetic fuel will be the future of transportation and home heating. It is more energy-dense. You can build up on CH4 to create even more energy-dense fuel.

But what if you do not have "natural gas"? What if the natural gas gets depleted and all you have is nuclear-powered electricity? You will need to build your energy storage, or 'fuel', from something. Electrolysis of water to H2 is a required first step, and then that gets used to produce higher order carbon-based fuel. What is the best stopping point? Hydrogen Gas? Methane (natural gas)? or a higher order fuel?

The answer to this is what our infrastructure will need to be adapted to. I believe something close to our current gas/diesel fuel is the optimum.

But what if you do not have "natural gas"? What if the natural gas gets depleted and all you have is nuclear-powered electricity?

Probably steam-reforming would be the way to go.
We could use plastic waste.

 

[San Souci]

What ever happened to Hydrogen fuel cell automobiles?? Your responses.??

Dangerous?

 

[Samofvt]

But what if you do not have "natural gas"? What if the natural gas gets depleted and all you have is nuclear-powered electricity?

Probably steam-reforming would be the way to go.
We could use plastic waste.

We could. Or paper. Or sewage. Or trees. Or yard waste. Or coal. anything that contains carbon. it all costs energy to re-fabricate, but it's not a problem. heck, we could even finally find a use for democrats. for a while until they become extinct.

 

[Samofvt]

Dangerous?

What's in your car's fuel tank? Dangerous? we accept some danger every day in our lives, but most people know not to light a match next to their gas cap when they take it off and refuel.

 

[westwall]

We could. Or paper. Or sewage. Or trees. Or yard waste. Or coal. anything that contains carbon. it all costs energy to re-fabricate, but it's not a problem. heck, we could even finally find a use for democrats. for a while until they become extinct.

The energy density of democrats is really low.

Just sayin.....

 

[San Souci]

What's in your car's fuel tank? Dangerous? we accept some danger every day in our lives, but most people know not to light a match next to their gas cap when they take it off and refuel.

It was a question. I kinda like the idea of JetPacks.

 

[Samofvt]

It was a question. I kinda like the idea of JetPacks.

 

[toobfreak]

Yes, it is actually much higher.

The energy requirement to separate hydrogen and oxygen from being atomically combined requires slightly more energy than it took to combine them in the first place in the replacing of the valence electrons so that the H nuclei can separate from the oxygen atoms to exist separately again. This is about 72 watt-hours of energy per 1.2 tablespoons of water or just shy of 5 eV per molecule of water. So, splitting one liter of water would take at least 16 MJ (4.4 kWh), which is more energy than it would take to launch a liter of water into deep space!

And this makes sense. If combining or separating elements into or from even simple molecules were any easier than this, it would be happening around us all the time and alchemy would be a common practice.

 

[JohnDB]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars....they are ONE of many types of hybrid vehicles. They still require a hydrocarbon product.

The catalytic converter that turns hydrocarbon fuel into electricity requires platinum. And there are insufficient amounts on the planet to make it work in a widespread manner.

You can use alcohol, gasoline, diesel, JP8 or pretty much any hydrocarbon fuel you wanted to. But the catalytic converter still needs the platinum. They found an alternative with rust (iron oxides) but the converter needed to be twice the size and was still susceptible to contaminants like the platinum.

GM had working model prototypes for Military testing. They also got several gas stations to carry ethanol for sale for when they made the conversion. (It would have been seamless)

The contaminants destroyed the converters...and Biden's EV program destroyed everything. Then Trump/congress scrapped just about all of it and started pumping more oil.

Thing is....a hybrid can use diesel made from yellow coal or wood pulp. And do it more efficiently than any combustion method.

 

[toobfreak]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars....they are ONE of many types of hybrid vehicles. They still require a hydrocarbon product.

The catalytic converter that turns hydrocarbon fuel into electricity requires platinum. And there are insufficient amounts on the planet to make it work in a widespread manner.

You can use alcohol, gasoline, diesel, JP8 or pretty much any hydrocarbon fuel you wanted to. But the catalytic converter still needs the platinum. They found an alternative with rust (iron oxides) but the converter needed to be twice the size and was still susceptible to contaminants like the platinum.

GM had working model prototypes for Military testing. They also got several gas stations to carry ethanol for sale for when they made the conversion. (It would have been seamless)

The contaminants destroyed the converters...and Biden's EV program destroyed everything. Then Trump/congress scrapped just about all of it and started pumping more oil.

Thing is....a hybrid can use diesel made from yellow coal or wood pulp. And do it more efficiently than any combustion method.

Wow, there are so many technical inaccuracies in that post I decided not to even try to address them all.

 

[JohnDB]

Wow, there are so many technical inaccuracies in that post I decided not to even try to address them all.

That would be beyond your ability.

GM had a fuel cell vehicle (small sized SUV) ready to go. Looked good and operated well. Military versions ran on JP8. Domestic use versions were to run on ethanol. Had all plans ready for retooling and new production lines. Including the catalytic converter stacks. (Turns fuel into electricity)

Did have some maintenance issues (like all hybrid vehicles do to work out) but the mpg was triple of most SUVs. The vehicle was extremely quiet (no combustion) and an available power source with an on-board inverter. (You could connect an extension cord to it to power anything 120V)

Edison motors has a different hybrid that involves a small diesel motor running a generator for tractor/trailer needs. It saves around 20% in fuel costs vx modern 18 wheelers. It also is under the average weight of Peterbilt or International trucks.

It is a Drive-by-wire system similar to diesel trains but modified with a different setup and transmissions. It also recoups the energy from wheels not driving by generating power from them. I recently shared a video where they were trying to get control over a power spike when doing that. (I believe they need to go mechanical instead of electronic controls for that....requiring specialized motors which will increase costs)

There's a huge number of options for hybrid vehicles.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's only easy if you have a ton of electrical power to separate the H molecule from the O molecule.

Would a diesel hybrid work?

 

[JohnDB]

Would a diesel hybrid work?

There are several diesel-hydrogen hybrid models. All utilizing diesel fuel. Most have a minimum of 20% or more efficiency out of the fuel. The exhaust is usually water vapor.
There's a new one in development I heard about using essentially baking soda....
The exhaust and baking soda was the exhaust. But again I don't think it will ever be used as sodium bicarbonate is not exactly an environmentally friendly product anymore than sulphurous acid is environmentally friendly (acid rain from hydrocarbon combustion).

 

[toobfreak]

That would be beyond your ability.

No, just that your arguments and statements are so far off the technical mark that I realize I'm just wasting all of my time with you trying to correct them all.

 

[Redfish]

What ever happened to Hydrogen fuel cell automobiles?? Your responses.??

no hydrogen stations to fill up at.

 

[JohnDB]

No, just that your arguments and statements are so far off the technical mark that I realize I'm just wasting all of my time with you trying to correct them all.

Well when discussing hydrogen fuel cells vehicles, also a hybrid, there are a dozen varieties of different methods of using hydrogen to power vehicles.

If you could clarify which method and model you are discussing it would be great.

There are saltwater models, hydrocarbon models, and etc. You need to clarify.