What do you know that these leaders do not?

Mac1958

Mac1958

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While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
 
Mac1958 said:
While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
Click to expand...
The question is why the US has to foot the bill for the war and the European Countries don't?
 
Mac1958 said:
While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
Click to expand...
Bullets and sat maps, fine, but it is coming down to bodies. If supplies and Intel are not enough, that means declaration of war and many dead US soldiers for a non Nato country. I don't think anybody likes it, but the alternative is declaring war on a nuclear power. Whether it is our problem or not has no bearing on whether Trump should try to stop a conflict. Peace is normally a pretty good idea.
 
MetalMars said:
Bullets and sat maps, fine, but it is coming down to bodies. If supplies and Intel are not enough, that means declaration of war and many dead US soldiers for a non Nato country. I don't think anybody likes it, but the alternative is declaring war on a nuclear power. Whether it is our problem or not has no bearing on whether Trump should try to stop a conflict. Peace is normally a pretty good idea.
Click to expand...
At a macro level, the "boots on the ground" part of this is going as it should. The Europeans have to talk about it because he's at their doorstep. But America can't go that far and risk its own lives. Trump is right to make that a red line.
 
You assume that these entities are working on your behalf, that may be a mistake, and a big one. I doubt NATO's motives in any matter, neither the American people nor Europeans have access to their planning or long-range goals. We have secondhand explanations and reasoning through a controlled press, and it seems almost a self-fulfilling prophecy that SOMEONE wants war very badly for SOME reason. That's what we know. Aggressive dictators come in all shapes and sizes, and they aren't immediately recognizable. No one seems to be trying to avoid a devastating conflict.
 
Mac1958 said:
While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
Click to expand...
Well, nations have self interest and Europe is no different. Beyond that though, Putin should not be trusted clearly. For them to all visit the U.S, historical in itself, is confirmation that they need America to remain a global leader. I've always said that you should remain so. Europe must fund the war and pay their fair share and then some. It is Europes war, but America must never lose it's position as the global military force in the world.
 
Mac1958 said:
While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
Click to expand...
The question is: Who the **** are you to ask that question?
You've been absolutely wrong for years.
Marco Rubio is in charge of United States foreign policy, and he's quite good at that role.
I'd dare any one of those NATO people to mess with Rubio. They won't like what happens if they do.
 
I'm all in for Rubio/Vance in 2028.
Rubio is the real deal. I knew that after his dad made him apologize to Trump, but Cruz didn't.
Cruz isn't bad, I'd like to see him on The Supreme Court.
But Rubio is serious business. Like my cousin from a different aunt.
 
Mac1958 said:
While American politics, American political parties, and American political leaders are squabbling over our role in the situation in Ukraine, leaders of the following European countries and organizations met with Trump in the last few days, all of them in full support of Ukraine and its efforts against Russia:
  • United Kingdom
  • Italy
  • France
  • Germany
  • Finland
  • European Commission
  • NATO
As I think we all know, all of them have a deep and personal understanding of European history, aggressive dictators and WAR. All of them have made their positions on Putin abundantly clear: Putin is the aggressor and must be stopped and forced to pay a price for his war.

And yet, many in America are certain that they understand the Russia/Ukraine situation and history better than these people. So if you don't think this is our problem, I'm not sure why Trump should be involved in any way.

How have those of you who oppose these efforts become more informed than these people, exactly? Your sources must be incredible and immaculate. So please provide some informed clarification on this terribly difficult situation.

Who are the European leaders meeting with Trump and Zelenskyy?
Click to expand...



From what I can tell from my discussions with people from your side on this issue,

the goal, your goal is to drive the russians from all of ukrainian soil, and perhaps with a bonus round of regime change in russia.


The problem, the "What do we know" that they don't know,


is not something either side doesn't know.


We all know that this cannot be done, in a reasonable time frame or for a reasonable price (in ukrainian lives).



The difference is not what we know, but that MAGA is willing to discuss the price, while the other side, your side, pivots away from any such discussion.



That is the crux of the matter. We are not prepared to spend ukrainian lives in large numbers for a maybe victory way, way down the road.


Your side is happy to do so.
 
Correll said:
From what I can tell from my discussions with people from your side on this issue,

the goal, your goal is to drive the russians from all of ukrainian soil, and perhaps with a bonus round of regime change in russia.


The problem, the "What do we know" that they don't know,


is not something either side doesn't know.


We all know that this cannot be done, in a reasonable time frame or for a reasonable price (in ukrainian lives).



The difference is not what we know, but that MAGA is willing to discuss the price, while the other side, your side, pivots away from any such discussion.



That is the crux of the matter. We are not prepared to spend ukrainian lives in large numbers for a maybe victory way, way down the road.


Your side is happy to do so.
Click to expand...
Since you clearly don't know "my side", there is no reason to continue.
 
15th post
Mac1958 said:
Since you clearly don't know "my side", there is no reason to continue.
Click to expand...

AND for that matter, that is no reason for you to ignore my point.

You could easily distance yourself from that side, not that anyone would believe you.


and then address my answer to your question.


The crux of this issue, is that ANTI-MAGA, wants to drive teh russians from ukrainian territory but refuses to discuss the cost in ukrainian lives.


MAGA, looks at the cost in ukrainian lives and thinks that cost is too high.
 
Mac1958 said:

What do you know that these leaders do not?​

Click to expand...

I know that I'm not virtue signalling that I support The Ukraine while I buy my oil and gas from Russia

I know I'm not suckering the American taxpayers out of $195 BILLION while pocketing most of the loot.

I know that I'm an American and have no business interfering in another of Europe's endless wars
 
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