What are Liberals trying to Liberalize?

[Liberty]

A liberal: "Can you prove that liberals want to take control?"
Me: "Does a bear shit in the woods?"

Seriously...lonelaughter you are taking this thread offtopic and I will not have it derailed until I receive some sort of an intelligent address on the issue. Liberals seek liberty. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A LIBERAL. So what is a modern liberal doing to promote liberty? Spill it on me.

Not to wreck your thread or anything? But my friend? 'Modern Liberals' are Statists. Liberal would portend Liberty of the individual.

Yeah I know, which is why this thread makes them squirm like the worms they are...completely unable to contemplate the simple truth that they detest the very definition of what they claim themselves to be.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yeah, it's easy to point the finger...but can you tell me what Conservatives are trying to conserve, and how you expect improvement out of the front-running neo-con corporate cronies?

Bet you can't...

Just curious, you seem to give off the illusion that you're all knowing.

The Tea party comes instantly to mind.

But I suppose you will want to sidetrack that with some of the things individual chapters have come out for.

What exactly is the Tea Party doing? Their elected representatives still for the most part tow the line with regards to general Republican policy, and any potential front-runner for Republican nominee seems to be pretty far from the supposed Libertarian-esque views of the Tea Party.

Those of us representing the Tea Party would suggest that the candidates they support are not those ideologically aligned with any party including the Libertarians, but rather those who pledge to support and further the three Tea Party goals: Fiscal responsiblity/integrity; smaller, less expensive, more efficient/effective government; and restoration/respect for individual unalienable rights/liberties.

That the Republican Party has structured its platform so that it is acceptable to the Tea Party automatically results in those candidates endorsed by the Tea Party being also aligned with those planks of the GOP platform. It might look like a chicken/egg sort of thing but it really isn't. The Tea Party isn't interested in the social views of the candidates except in what they expect the government to pay for.

 

[Liberty]

libertarians as a whole im pretty sure are cool with like 99% of the tea party's stated values. We'd prefer complete control over our own bodies, but like you said that social stuff isn't really part of the tea party's mission.

 

[Foxfyre]

Can you kindly provide some evidence that supports those claims? Maybe some examples that illustrate what you are claiming? Please do not direct me to your previous post as it contained no evidence nor examples.

If I were to attempt to counter every false, unsubstantiated, fabricated or simply misunderstood claim that "conservatives" here have made about what "modern liberals" think and desire, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

The idea that liberals are somehow being hoodwinked by the government and will wake up some years from now enslaved and wondering what happened is just dumb. The idea that we all are driven by the desire to get free stuff and will gladly trade votes for said free stuff is insulting. The inference that you have, via some ability to discern fact from fiction that I do not possess, escaped with your wits about you and have set out to save me from myself is arrogance defined.

I generally avoid talking about myself as it usually seems lame to when people do that. But I will say this and fully expect you to take me at my word. I have an extremely refined bullshit detector. It is not possible to "condition" me. Period.

I have been reading, studying, speaking on, and commenting on the rise of the new American liberalism for more than four decades now. And whenever somebody attempts to read some absurd notion or statement into my remarks that I did not say and that any normal person would know that I did not intend, as you have done in every post you have directed to me here, I take that quite personally. Nor am I easily dragged off course by straw men and red herrings thrown into the mix.

And if you cannot address my remarks with anything better than "that isn't true or that';s bullshit" or better, why should I take my time to 'defend my remarks'? I would refer you, however, to writings of scholars such as Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Starr Parker, Shelby Steele, and others, all dedicated historians as well as some being PhD economists, who have done exhaustive research on the phenomenon of the rise of modern American liberalism and the effect that has had on American society.

Here's just some of Sowell's books you can start with:

A CONFLICT OF VISIONS
INTELLECTUALS AND SOCIETY
ON CLASSICAL ECONOMICS
THE QUEST FOR COSMIC JUSTICE
THE VISION OF THE ANOINTED
AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AROUND THE WORLD
BLACK REDNECKS AND WHITE LIBERALS
CIVIL RIGHTS: RHETORIC OR REALITY?
ECONOMIC AND POLITICS OF RACE
ETHNIC AMERICA
TRILOGY

None of them are large volumes and none are difficult reading. Probably several are available at your local library.

A reading list. Great!

My interest is piqued. I would like to know if your first entry in this thread is the culmination of all of your years of study. If that commentary forms the basis for speeches that others will pay to hear, I am going to look into getting some speaking engagements.

How about responding to my request with something better than a reading list.

Okay I'll do that just as soon as you articulate a reasoned response/rebuttal to any statement I've made with something better than 'that's bullshit' or a reasonable facsimile. (Taking side bets that he can't or won't do it. )

 

[The T]

libertarians as a whole im pretty sure are cool with like 99% of the tea party's stated values. We'd prefer complete control over our own bodies, but like you said that social stuff isn't really part of the tea party's mission.

Total and Complete Liberty as stated in the DOI...and codified in the Constitution.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Maybe I hit you with too many questions the first time around. let me try it this way:

The concept of big government creep was first discernable in the Teddy Roosevelt administration and began then as a tiny, seemingly inconsequential snowball that was started rolling slowly down hill. It steadily gained size and momentum from that point as subsequent Presidents added to it, but for decades it remained small enough to not be seen as a problem.

Finally in the 1960's, Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" gave the snowball a huge shove and it was noticable. But within the phenomenon of the Vietnam War inspired anti-cultural revolution of the sixties, it was the elephant in the room that was not mentioned in polite company.

The anti-cultural revolution, driven by drugs and booze, inspired large numbers of people to zone out, drop out, and reject, even despise, the great American institutions and values that made us the greatest nation the world has ever known. God, church, marriage, personal responsibility and accountability, all by various degrees were rejected, minimalized, marginalized, and rejected as essential to a stable society and were replaced by an anti-establishment 'me first' mentality. And modern American liberalism was born.

In time these anti-culture rebels would return to the mainstream. But their way of thinking and attitude had been mostly changed forever,

And now those anti-cultural revolutionaries of the 60's control our largest corporations, Wall Street, most of the media, most of public education, and most of all aspects of our government from the federal level down to city hall. The public servant largely no longer exists--cannot be elected in most places actually--and has largely been replaced by the professional politician whose No. 1 goal is to get elected and/or stay in office and use the people's money to increase his/her power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

And because the culture and education and the media has so long been largely controlled by this same group, too many of our people have been indoctrinated instead of educated. They have been conditioned to believe that if government doesn't do 'good', then no good will be done. They have been taught and honestly believe that most of America was a horrible place before government forced it to be better,. They are incapable of seeing the elephant in the room which is that aspect of government that is destructive, demeaning, and counter productive.

They honestly think they mean well. They honestly believe that the government is more benevolent and honorable than anything the private sector will do. They honestly don't see how modern liberalism has become more restrictive and more authoritarian and more freedom destroying than anything that existed before.

We won't be able to just use the ballot box to begin correcting the damage that has been done. It has to be all of us who can still see clearly and think critically who will have to change hearts and minds.

What is represented by the tiny snowball, exactly? What idea, act, trend.....are you identifying as giving birth to the concept of "big government creep"? Were there voices at the time who gave this name to the concept? Was there any opposition? If so, from whom?

You have begun your treatise with this analogy. I assume that you think it is important. I have asked for some further information and you have thus far refused to provide it.

Thanks.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Nice attempt to derail again. A-

 

[LoneLaugher]

The concept of big government creep was first discernable in the Teddy Roosevelt administration and began then as a tiny, seemingly inconsequential snowball that was started rolling slowly down hill. It steadily gained size and momentum from that point as subsequent Presidents added to it, but for decades it remained small enough to not be seen as a problem.

Finally in the 1960's, Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" gave the snowball a huge shove and it was noticable. But within the phenomenon of the Vietnam War inspired anti-cultural revolution of the sixties, it was the elephant in the room that was not mentioned in polite company.

The anti-cultural revolution, driven by drugs and booze, inspired large numbers of people to zone out, drop out, and reject, even despise, the great American institutions and values that made us the greatest nation the world has ever known. God, church, marriage, personal responsibility and accountability, all by various degrees were rejected, minimalized, marginalized, and rejected as essential to a stable society and were replaced by an anti-establishment 'me first' mentality. And modern American liberalism was born.

In time these anti-culture rebels would return to the mainstream. But their way of thinking and attitude had been mostly changed forever,

And now those anti-cultural revolutionaries of the 60's control our largest corporations, Wall Street, most of the media, most of public education, and most of all aspects of our government from the federal level down to city hall. The public servant largely no longer exists--cannot be elected in most places actually--and has largely been replaced by the professional politician whose No. 1 goal is to get elected and/or stay in office and use the people's money to increase his/her power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

And because the culture and education and the media has so long been largely controlled by this same group, too many of our people have been indoctrinated instead of educated. They have been conditioned to believe that if government doesn't do 'good', then no good will be done. They have been taught and honestly believe that most of America was a horrible place before government forced it to be better,. They are incapable of seeing the elephant in the room which is that aspect of government that is destructive, demeaning, and counter productive.

They honestly think they mean well. They honestly believe that the government is more benevolent and honorable than anything the private sector will do. They honestly don't see how modern liberalism has become more restrictive and more authoritarian and more freedom destroying than anything that existed before.

We won't be able to just use the ballot box to begin correcting the damage that has been done. It has to be all of us who can still see clearly and think critically who will have to change hearts and minds.

It is in the selected paragraph that you exhibited your arrogance. While you will no doubt claim that I am putting words into your mouth, you have essentially claimed that people like me.........modern liberal Americans.....are the product of drug and alcohol abuse, unAmerican sentiment, irresponsible behavior and unaccountability.

What you have not done is prove any of that or provide any details as to how this may have happened other than to say that it happened. I have asked for some evidence and examples which you have refused to provide.

 

[Liberty]

So...I'd say this thread is pretty successful. The modern liberals are squirming, unable to answer the question proposed, and are instead opting for red herrings (and in the case of LL, actually demanding answers from others while refusing to address questions posed.) Mission accomplished.

Good job, everyone.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The concept of big government creep was first discernable in the Teddy Roosevelt administration and began then as a tiny, seemingly inconsequential snowball that was started rolling slowly down hill. It steadily gained size and momentum from that point as subsequent Presidents added to it, but for decades it remained small enough to not be seen as a problem.

Finally in the 1960's, Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" gave the snowball a huge shove and it was noticable. But within the phenomenon of the Vietnam War inspired anti-cultural revolution of the sixties, it was the elephant in the room that was not mentioned in polite company.

The anti-cultural revolution, driven by drugs and booze, inspired large numbers of people to zone out, drop out, and reject, even despise, the great American institutions and values that made us the greatest nation the world has ever known. God, church, marriage, personal responsibility and accountability, all by various degrees were rejected, minimalized, marginalized, and rejected as essential to a stable society and were replaced by an anti-establishment 'me first' mentality. And modern American liberalism was born.

In time these anti-culture rebels would return to the mainstream. But their way of thinking and attitude had been mostly changed forever,

And now those anti-cultural revolutionaries of the 60's control our largest corporations, Wall Street, most of the media, most of public education, and most of all aspects of our government from the federal level down to city hall. The public servant largely no longer exists--cannot be elected in most places actually--and has largely been replaced by the professional politician whose No. 1 goal is to get elected and/or stay in office and use the people's money to increase his/her power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

And because the culture and education and the media has so long been largely controlled by this same group, too many of our people have been indoctrinated instead of educated. They have been conditioned to believe that if government doesn't do 'good', then no good will be done. They have been taught and honestly believe that most of America was a horrible place before government forced it to be better,. They are incapable of seeing the elephant in the room which is that aspect of government that is destructive, demeaning, and counter productive.

They honestly think they mean well. They honestly believe that the government is more benevolent and honorable than anything the private sector will do. They honestly don't see how modern liberalism has become more restrictive and more authoritarian and more freedom destroying than anything that existed before.

We won't be able to just use the ballot box to begin correcting the damage that has been done. It has to be all of us who can still see clearly and think critically who will have to change hearts and minds.

This one really needs some background and clarification. How did this happen? What do you mean by "returned to the mainstream"? Did they once again become accountable and responsible? Had they regained any of the values that made America great? What period of time are we talking about? the 70's and 80's?

 

[LoneLaugher]

The concept of big government creep was first discernable in the Teddy Roosevelt administration and began then as a tiny, seemingly inconsequential snowball that was started rolling slowly down hill. It steadily gained size and momentum from that point as subsequent Presidents added to it, but for decades it remained small enough to not be seen as a problem.

Finally in the 1960's, Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" gave the snowball a huge shove and it was noticable. But within the phenomenon of the Vietnam War inspired anti-cultural revolution of the sixties, it was the elephant in the room that was not mentioned in polite company.

The anti-cultural revolution, driven by drugs and booze, inspired large numbers of people to zone out, drop out, and reject, even despise, the great American institutions and values that made us the greatest nation the world has ever known. God, church, marriage, personal responsibility and accountability, all by various degrees were rejected, minimalized, marginalized, and rejected as essential to a stable society and were replaced by an anti-establishment 'me first' mentality. And modern American liberalism was born.

In time these anti-culture rebels would return to the mainstream. But their way of thinking and attitude had been mostly changed forever,

And now those anti-cultural revolutionaries of the 60's control our largest corporations, Wall Street, most of the media, most of public education, and most of all aspects of our government from the federal level down to city hall. The public servant largely no longer exists--cannot be elected in most places actually--and has largely been replaced by the professional politician whose No. 1 goal is to get elected and/or stay in office and use the people's money to increase his/her power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth.

And because the culture and education and the media has so long been largely controlled by this same group, too many of our people have been indoctrinated instead of educated. They have been conditioned to believe that if government doesn't do 'good', then no good will be done. They have been taught and honestly believe that most of America was a horrible place before government forced it to be better,. They are incapable of seeing the elephant in the room which is that aspect of government that is destructive, demeaning, and counter productive.

They honestly think they mean well. They honestly believe that the government is more benevolent and honorable than anything the private sector will do. They honestly don't see how modern liberalism has become more restrictive and more authoritarian and more freedom destroying than anything that existed before.

We won't be able to just use the ballot box to begin correcting the damage that has been done. It has to be all of us who can still see clearly and think critically who will have to change hearts and minds.

I think you are saying that the previously unaccountable, drug addicted, alcoholic anti-American heathens somehow gained control over all of the primary American institutions. then, they began indoctrinating "too many" of our people. Most Americans are thus unable to understand what is really being done to them.

But....they mean well. They are not intentionally destroying America. they just don't see what is happening.

And.....finally......it is up to people like you...who can still see clearly and think critically.......to reclaim America from the clueless liberals who run the show.

Nope. Rereading it didn't help. This entire things is bullshit.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

So, this far in and you have no plan to answer the OP question. That's rich.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Since the father of liberalism, John Locke, wrote his famous treatise on government (and the second one which is more famous), the term liberal had its root word "lib" which is short for "liber," or "liberty" which is defined as, "free." So...how is a liberal today in any way associated with promoting liberty? Seems to me unless it has something to do with homosexuality the liberal will always prefer to create laws and regulation, which are inherent in their definition a means to remove liberty, more than they are concerned with repealing unnecessary laws and regulation that remove liberty. How odd.

This statement dictated that the OP did not deserve a thoughtful reply. Don't you agree?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Only if you're into cherry picking and can not articulate your platform. Which obviously you can not.

 

[Liberty]

I only mentioned gay rights that because there is a liberal platform in the modern political arena to give equal benefits of marriage to human couples of all sexual orientations. That is a LIBERAL view by definition of the word LIBERAL. That, however, is the ONLY liberal idea that I can think of, in this modern world, that actually FITS with the definition of LIBERAL. I am asking if there are any other MODERN LIBERAL platforms that actually fit the DEFINITION of the word LIBERAL!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS ALL I AM ASKING! HOW IS THIS ROCKET SCIENCE?!

LL, your brain must be the size of a ******* pea.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Yeah......that's it. You can't communicate so my brain is the size of a pea. perfect.

 

[Liberty]

Yeah......that's it. You can't communicate so my brain is the size of a pea. perfect.

Anything else? And here I was thinking rdean and RW were the popes of stupid town. I think you just might take the cake.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The communication was fine, you just did not answer the question coherently. You deliberately tried to derail. Probably because you can not articulate your political platform. Color me shocked.

 

[Vidi]

Since the father of liberalism, John Locke, wrote his famous treatise on government (and the second one which is more famous), the term liberal had its root word "lib" which is short for "liber," or "liberty" which is defined as, "free." So...how is a liberal today in any way associated with promoting liberty? Seems to me unless it has something to do with homosexuality the liberal will always prefer to create laws and regulation, which are inherent in their definition a means to remove liberty, more than they are concerned with repealing unnecessary laws and regulation that remove liberty. How odd.

Liberals believe in freedom for all, not just a few. Currently we arent "liberizing" anything, but we are trying to "liberate" our future from the wealthy elite who use their power and influence to create a corporate welfare state by which all wealth is redistributed to the top 1%.

We believe a man should keep the product of his labor, not be forced to give it to Baseball stadiums, New Walmarts or Oil companies in the form of tax breaks, subsidies and grants.

We believe that everyone should pay their own way, but if someone should stumble, we should extend a helping hand, but NOT a hand out.

We believe that ALL humans are created equal regardless of race, gender, religion, age, sexual preference or financial status.

We believe that Big Government should keep their hands out of a womans vagina, out of our bedrooms and out of our marriages.

We believe it is wrong to exclude any group of people from the rights and priviledges enjoyed by the rest of society.

We believe in Mom and Pop stores, Family owned farms that grows actual food and the American ingenuity, excellence and ambition to always look to the future and build a better society through hard work, strong character and American values.

We believe that while a strong military is important, extending a friendly hand to the rest of the world might be just as important.

We believe that a strong Middle Class is essential for a strong economy and a strong nation.

We believe in America.

 

[LoneLaugher]

OK. How many examples do you want?

Obvious ways in which the modern liberal seeks to promote liberty:

Legalization of recreational drugs.
Freedom of choice regarding a woman's reproductive organs.
Making it EASIER to vote rather than more difficult.
Oppose the FCC's attack on freedom of speech and expression.
Oppose the Patriot Act

Does this answer your obvious question to your satisfaction?