WFB: "Iraq Is Lost"

[NATO AIR]

expect more of this in the coming weeks and months. Kind of a sad day, when even conservatives are losing faith in the process.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_25_06_WB.html

February 25, 2006
It Didn't Work
By William F. Buckley

"I can tell you the main reason behind all our woes -- it is America." The New York Times reporter is quoting the complaint of a clothing merchant in a Sunni stronghold in Iraq. "Everything that is going on between Sunnis and Shiites, the troublemaker in the middle is America."

One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. The same edition of the paper quotes a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. Mr. Reuel Marc Gerecht backed the American intervention. He now speaks of the bombing of the especially sacred Shiite mosque in Samarra and what that has precipitated in the way of revenge. He concludes that "the bombing has completely demolished" what was being attempted -- to bring Sunnis into the defense and interior ministries.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven't proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren't on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. And so they join the clothing merchant who says that everything is the fault of the Americans.

The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elucidates on the complaint against Americans. It is not only that the invaders are American, it is that they are "Zionists." It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each other's throats.

A problem for American policymakers -- for President Bush, ultimately -- is to cope with the postulates and decide how to proceed.

One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom. The accompanying postulate was that the invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymakers to cope with insurgents bent on violence.

This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure. It can defend itself historically, standing by the inherent reasonableness of the postulates. After all, they govern our policies in Latin America, in Africa and in much of Asia. The failure in Iraq does not force us to generalize that violence and anti-democratic movements always prevail. It does call on us to adjust to the question, What do we do when we see that the postulates do not prevail -- in the absence of interventionist measures (we used these against Hirohito and Hitler) that we simply are not prepared to take?

It is healthier for the disillusioned American to concede that in one theater in the Mideast, the postulates didn't work. The alternative would be to abandon the postulates. To do that would be to register a kind of philosophical despair. The killer insurgents are not entitled to blow up the shrine of American idealism.

Mr. Bush has a very difficult internal problem here because to make the kind of concession that is strategically appropriate requires a mitigation of policies he has several times affirmed in high-flown pronouncements. His challenge is to persuade himself that he can submit to a historical reality without forswearing basic commitments in foreign policy.

He will certainly face the current development as military leaders are expected to do: They are called upon to acknowledge a tactical setback, but to insist on the survival of strategic policies.

Yes, but within their own counsels, different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.

Copyright 2006 Universal Press Syndicate

 

[trobinett]

expect more of this in the coming weeks and months. Kind of a sad day, when even conservatives are losing faith in the process.

Sad indeed, sadder yet, is the lost American`s, and our belief, that the Iraq people had "back bones". A couple of "pot holes" in the road, and their ready to bail.

I don`t think people anymore, really understand what freedom is all about.

We do, American`s may fight, and throw barb`s back and forth, but when it get`s down to it, we are in agreement, freedom is worth fighting for.

These emerging countries, Iraq being one, just don`t seem to have the fortitude to "stick it out".

You`d almost think, WE were the ones, sitting road side bombs, and doing random shootings.

Something goes wrong, anywhere in the world, and it`s OUR fault. Well, big new`s flash, it ain`t our fault.

We, unfortunately, can`t divorce ourselves from these world events, but it`s becoming harder to have a positive demeanor.

I`m heading in the direction of .........................

 

[USViking]

...the complaint of a clothing merchant in a Sunni stronghold in Iraq. "Everything that is going on between Sunnis and Shiites, the troublemaker in the middle is America."

I just don't see it, and I think this is a true example
of denial nearly psychotic in its extremeness.

I thas been almost three years since Saddam was
overtghrown, and it is the Iraqis who have been
at each other's throats when they could as easlily
have been shaking each other's hands, and getting
on with the job of rebuilding their country, which
is potentially one of the world's richest.

Yes, but within their own counsels, different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.

I do not see how we can acknowledge defeat if
it means giving Islamist terror any chance of
winning Iraq.

If the Sunni will not join the government as
responsible partners, then they will have to
be ruled as suppressed subjects. I do not
think can prevail against the superior numbers
of the Shia and Kurds, especially if the US
gives technical support to the Shia-Kurd
side of the struggle.

 

[Psychoblues]

Thanks for the post, Nato Air.

No question about it. Subsequent posts by trobinett and others might somehow disillusion you. YOU, NATO AIR, are comprehending what you are reading and the others are shitting their pants figuring out whether the "I TOLD YOU SO" is your next communication.

I could have said "I TOLD YOU SO" hundreds of times here in USMessage Board. I chose not to rub the faces on the naysayers into the unpleasantry of truth. Those that like the bull shit as dictated by the boy genious recovering crackhead in the WhiteHouse or the Main Stream Corporate Media will never understand even their own dilemma. As Jesus would encourage, shake the dust off your feet and move on. At least 'till your next truthful post.


Psychoblues

 

[dilloduck]

Thanks for the post, Nato Air.

No question about it. Subsequent posts by trobinett and others might somehow disillusion you. YOU, NATO AIR, are comprehending what you are reading and the others are shitting their pants figuring out whether the "I TOLD YOU SO" is your next communication.

I could have said "I TOLD YOU SO" hundreds of times here in USMessage Board. I chose not to rub the faces on the naysayers into the unpleasantry of truth. Those that like the bull shit as dictated by the boy genious recovering crackhead in the WhiteHouse or the Main Stream Corporate Media will never understand even their own dilemma. As Jesus would encourage, shake the dust off your feet and move on. At least 'till your next truthful post.


Psychoblues

Thanks so much for all the support !

 

[USViking]

Thanks for the post, Nato Air.

No question about it. Subsequent posts by trobinett and others might somehow disillusion you. YOU, NATO AIR, are comprehending what you are reading and the others are shitting their pants figuring out whether the "I TOLD YOU SO" is your next communication.

I could have said "I TOLD YOU SO" hundreds of times here in USMessage Board. I chose not to rub the faces on the naysayers into the unpleasantry of truth. Those that like the bull shit as dictated by the boy genious recovering crackhead in the WhiteHouse or the Main Stream Corporate Media will never understand even their own dilemma. As Jesus would encourage, shake the dust off your feet and move on. At least 'till your next truthful post.


Psychoblues

There is a long way to go before Iraq will know any peace.

There is also a long way to go before the US mission-
to establish Democracy there- can be ruled a failure.

 

[dilloduck]

There is a long way to go before Iraq will know any peace.

There is also a long way to go before the US mission-
to establish Democracy there- can be ruled a failure.

Psycho has too grab at any bad news he can to feel good.

 

[Hobbit]

Psycho, I've told you once, but you seem to suffer from a learning disability, so here it is again.

Don't you DARE even BEGIN to THINK about telling us what Jesus wants us to do. After all that talk about how religion is a crutch for the weak and that only a fool would believe in God, you have no right to question anyone on following their religion. You ever talk to Jesus and ask him what he wants you to do? I didn't think so. You lose. Sit down.

 

[theim]

Psycho, I've told you once, but you seem to suffer from a learning disability, so here it is again.

Don't you DARE even BEGIN to THINK about telling us what Jesus wants us to do. After all that talk about how religion is a crutch for the weak and that only a fool would believe in God, you have no right to question anyone on following their religion. You ever talk to Jesus and ask him what he wants you to do? I didn't think so. You lose. Sit down.

 

[NATO AIR]

I just posted it to mark the loss of another prominent conservative figure from the ranks of those who believe this can be a victory.

We have a long way to go before we can win. We're going to lose more supporters, some to honest loss of faith and others to the defeatist propoganda of the media and politicians.

We shall see whether we can bear the attrition of support for the duration of the mission.

 

[NATO AIR]

From NRO's "The Corner":

BUCKLEY ON IRAQ [Ramesh Ponnuru]

William F. Buckley Jr. has been skeptical about the Iraq venture for some time. Two years ago he said that if he had known before the war that Saddam Hussein had no WMD, he would have opposed the war. The mosque bombing appears to have been the final straw for him. He now says that it is beyond doubt that "the American objective in Iraq has failed." It is time for an "acknowledgment of defeat."

This is a refinement and extension of Bill's position in response to new circumstances. It's not a case in which a full-throated supporter of the war turned on it and came out for an immediate withdrawal. He wasn't a full-throated supporter of the war, and he hasn't (yet?) come out for immediate withdrawal. Still, his pronouncement strikes me as important (even allowing for the bias that comes from working in the House of Buckley).

I myself think that Bill's conclusion is premature. It could very well be vindicated by events, although obviously I hope it won't be.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

There's no doubt we could subjugate both groups. How do you force people to live together who want to kill each other. Democracy is more than having elections. It's also being close enough in basic morals and identity to the people across the aisle that you will A)abide by elections resuts and b) not be genocided out of existence.

Iraq has failed. We should divide it into separate countries.

 

[NATO AIR]

Iraq has failed. We should divide it into separate countries.

I find this to have been the best option, if we'd had a basic understanding of geography, history and culture there. Kurdistan would be a great ally of the US in the region, Shia Iraq would have moderate relations with us, and the Sunni region would be a failed state, albeit one that eventually regrouped with Saudi and Gulf state funding and backing.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I find this to have been the best option, if we'd had a basic understanding of geography, history and culture there. Kurdistan would be a great ally of the US in the region, Shia Iraq would have moderate relations with us, and the Sunni region would be a failed state, albeit one that eventually regrouped with Saudi and Gulf state funding and backing.

Do you know why this won't happen?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Maybe "lost the war" is too broad a statement. It's not going to be a smoothly running secular democracy like ours. You can't FORCE a common identity where one doesn't exist and there is no will to create one.

 

[NATO AIR]

Do you know why this won't happen?

Why do you think it won't happen?
(i'll explain my view in detail when i wake up in the morning, i have to go to bed ASAP)

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Why do you think it won't happen?
(i'll explain my view in detail when i wake up in the morning, i have to go to bed ASAP)

The "goal" is to consolidate power. We were doomed when we agreed to global fiat currency. See you at the resurrection.

 

[Annie]

From NRO's "The Corner":

BUCKLEY ON IRAQ [Ramesh Ponnuru]

William F. Buckley Jr. has been skeptical about the Iraq venture for some time. Two years ago he said that if he had known before the war that Saddam Hussein had no WMD, he would have opposed the war. The mosque bombing appears to have been the final straw for him. He now says that it is beyond doubt that "the American objective in Iraq has failed." It is time for an "acknowledgment of defeat."

This is a refinement and extension of Bill's position in response to new circumstances. It's not a case in which a full-throated supporter of the war turned on it and came out for an immediate withdrawal. He wasn't a full-throated supporter of the war, and he hasn't (yet?) come out for immediate withdrawal. Still, his pronouncement strikes me as important (even allowing for the bias that comes from working in the House of Buckley).

I myself think that Bill's conclusion is premature. It could very well be vindicated by events, although obviously I hope it won't be.

I like Buckley, but he's more of a Conservative/Conservative. Still has the First George's Farewell Speech ringing in his ears. Nothing wrong with that, just that we are not in a place where isolationism will work.

 

[NATO AIR]

I like Buckley, but he's more of a Conservative/Conservative. Still has the First George's Farewell Speech ringing in his ears. Nothing wrong with that, just that we are not in a place where isolationism will work.

Correct.

Problem history will judge Bush for is he sold the war improperly and went about it all the wrong way.

Nobody's perfect, but this mistake put the whole mission in peril from the beginning.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Correct.

Problem history will judge Bush for is he sold the war improperly and went about it all the wrong way.

Nobody's perfect, but this mistake put the whole mission in peril from the beginning.

I think the decision to invade was still ok, considering Saddam was acting as if he had wmds, and was in violation of un resolutions, and sent money to palestinians, and had other terrorist contacts. Democracy was always just something fun to try after nullifiying the security risk.