We banned a flag not too long ago...HEY what about this one? A very long rant...

[BULLDOG]

I'm ALL for banning that flag. It's become a symbol of hate and is waved in our faces and on YOUR WHITE HOUSE to say. fxxk you

I'm not aware of a gay flag being flown over the white house, but there was a little bit of **** you in those rainbow lights. Good.

 

[Dad2three]

Yep, *** flag is a symbol of hate.

To those that support the party of hate and divisiveness, the GOP? Yep

 

[Dad2three]

I'm ALL for banning that flag. It's become a symbol of hate and is waved in our faces and on YOUR WHITE HOUSE to say. fxxk you

I'm not aware of a gay flag being flown over the white house, but there was a little bit of **** you in those rainbow lights. Good.

One night when SCOTUS said EVERYONE is equal. Go figure cons get upset *shaking head*

 

[Coyote]

To the leftists here:

You wanted to ban this flag when some white boy shot up a black church. You got your wish:

Not soon after the massacre, a picture of Dylann Roof was found where he was sporting a Confederate flag, and then again not soon after, liberals behaved as if banning that flag would somehow bring those poor souls who died in Charleston back to life. It didn't. If it were only that simple.

But when a black gay man kills two people on live TV, what would have been the reaction if people began calling for a ban of the Gay Pride Flag? This flag does represent him, does it not?

If you want to ban one flag when someone goes on a killing spree, why don't we ban all of them? Sins have been committed under all sorts of banners and flags. Banning the flags will not undo any of the crimes.

But here liberals are, using the very same narrative which they once viewed as a defense of racism, hatred, slavery, or even the murderer himself to defend a flag which represented the sexual preference of the man who murdered two people. What if we used that same logic against gay rights activists? That flying that flag is a defense of the man who killed two people in cold blood?

Even in her ignorance, the woman in the tweet below asks an important question. How does removing (banning) a flag change someone's actions? It doesn't. But here we are, fighting over which flags to ban when some psychopath goes on a killing spree. My gosh, such petty arguments over such things as pieces of fabric. Why aren't we condemning the person instead of the flag? Why are we blaming the flag or the weapon he used? On a separate note, a number of you liberals want to ban firearms when a perceived conservative commits a mass murder, however, when a gay black man commits murder, no longer is he the perpetrator, but the firearm itself. How I wish you knew how much of a double standard is being perpetrated here.

If only all of you (both sides now) realized how colossally hypocritical your narratives are. Ban one, keep the other. Ban, ban, ban, ban! This offends me! Ban it! Ban all the things! Wow. No... I can't even... just... just stop. Seriously.

If you're about to use the same narrative you criticize, you will have a bad time.

There is a difference here.

The sentiments for and against the Confederate Flag go much further back than one murder spree. It's been a contentious and divisive symbol. While it represents "good" southern values and states rights to one segment of the American population, it also represents slavery, Jim Crowe, lynchings, racism, injustice and segregation to another. Those are vary powerful associations. The murder spree by a mentally ill racist intent on "starting a race war" was just the straw that broke the camel's back. If a state wants to remove it from state grounds - that is their choice and, imo - it needs to be retired to the annuls of history. We're the United States of America. Not the North and the South. The war is over. It's been over for more than a century. Time to move on. As far as "banning it" - people can do what they wish on private property, display what flags they want to and it's no one else's business.

The rainbow flag has only ever represented one thing - gay rights. Whether you agree with it or not, violence, slavery, segregation, lynchings etc have never been a part of that movement. I don't believe it stands on any state property side by side with the American Flag. The person who committed this recent crime was a mentally ill disgruntled ex-employee who saw racism as the reason for all his problems and who also happened to be gay. I don't recall seeing any pictures of him with a rainbow flag and a bunch of guns, or any indication he wanted to start a sexual orientation war, or that gay rights had anything to do with his actions.

This attempt by rightwingers to use this as an excuse to ban the rainbow flags strikes me as clutching at straws although I'm sure to them this latest crime where the criminal happens to be both a black racist and gay, is like manna from heaven for them. Far more important for it's propaganda value than for the lives tragically taken.

 

[Coyote]

I'm ALL for banning that flag. It's become a symbol of hate and is waved in our faces and on YOUR WHITE HOUSE to say. fxxk you

How is it a "symbol of hate" - hatred of what?

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm ALL for banning that flag. It's become a symbol of hate and is waved in our faces and on YOUR WHITE HOUSE to say. fxxk you

How is it a "symbol of hate" - hatred of what?

Perhaps it is a symbol of hatred of bad fashion choices.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The sentiments for and against the Confederate Flag go much further back than one murder spree.

Sentiments that until then never really amounted to anything. I disagree with this assertion. Nobody started banning the flag until after Roof killed those 9 people in the church. No online retailers were taking it off the shelf before then. Nobody cared until then. Yeah, the distaste was there, but people really didn't care.

It's been a contentious and divisive symbol. While it represents "good" southern values and states rights to one segment of the American population, it also represents slavery, Jim Crowe, lynchings, racism, injustice and segregation to another.

So, removing it from public view amounts to what? Censorship? I don't really care what a flag represents. Good values altogether dictate we educate our children of that sinful past, not censor it.

There are people who support the flag who support none of what the Confederacy stood for. The American Flag itself flew when we started putting Japanese in internment camps, it flew while the same racism that you say the Confederate flag represents was spreading like wildfire. It flew when we decided to drop an atomic weapon on Japan. America has been in existence for 239 years, the Confederacy for only four. Now imagine what flag we would be ridiculing if we only showed the history behind what they represented.

But if we're going to get rid of flags, lets also remove the Gay Pride flag too. Flanigan (spelling?) was a gay man, and that flag represents the LGBT movement. If we are going to stoop to this kind of asininity, let's start here.

The murder spree by a mentally ill racist intent on "starting a race war" was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

If I recall, the Black Lives Matter movement wanted to start a "race war" long before Roof decided to go on a killing spree. To be honest, they started it. Not him. This is what happens when you stir a pot full of shit.

If a state wants to remove it from state grounds - that is their choice and, imo - it needs to be retired to the annuls of history.

Like I told Aaron, I'm not even referring to that. I'll refer you to that response now. I don't feel like reiterating.

We're the United States of America. Not the North and the South. The war is over. It's been over for more than a century. Time to move on. As far as "banning it" - people can do what they wish on private property, display what flags they want to and it's no one else's business.

That's ironic. Instead of North and South, we're black and white. We're still talking race long after the Confederacy lost and the Civil Rights Act was passed. Black Lives Matter here, white lives matter there. We're not "The United States of America" anymore, just the "Divided States of America." There is too much division in America for it to be truly United.

Well, as for "banning it" people can't fly a flag they can no longer buy from mainstream retailers. Walmart, Amazon... just to name a couple.

The rainbow flag has only ever represented one thing - gay rights. ... The person who committed this recent crime was a mentally ill disgruntled ex-employee who saw racism as the reason for all his problems and who also happened to be gay. I don't recall seeing any pictures of him with a rainbow flag and a bunch of guns, or any indication he wanted to start a sexual orientation war, or that gay rights had anything to do with his actions.

But suddenly, as that tweet points out, and as you've confirmed, the narrative changes. Why? Why can't we use the argument "the Confederate Flag represents our heritage, not hatred?" When a gay man kills two people on live television, there is no one calling for the removal "to the annals of history" the flag that represented him. Suddenly the argument is that of those who defended the Confederate one "that flag didn't kill those people, how would banning a flag change that?"

Whether you agree with it or not, violence, slavery, segregation, lynchings etc have never been a part of that movement.

That, milady is a topic for another thread. I can list off many instances where violence against dissenters was perpetrated by the gay rights movement. But let's stay on topic for now.

I don't believe it stands on any state property side by side with the American Flag.

No, but if we're going to ban flags over acts of violence, why don't we just ban all three of them and be done with it? (dripping sarcasm)

 

[NYcarbineer]

The sentiments for and against the Confederate Flag go much further back than one murder spree.

Sentiments that until then never really amounted to anything. I disagree with this assertion. Nobody started banning the flag until after Roof killed those 9 people in the church. No online retailers were taking it off the shelf before then. Nobody cared until then. Yeah, the distaste was there, but people really didn't care.

It's been a contentious and divisive symbol. While it represents "good" southern values and states rights to one segment of the American population, it also represents slavery, Jim Crowe, lynchings, racism, injustice and segregation to another.

So, removing it from public view amounts to what? Censorship? I don't really care what a flag represents. Good values altogether dictate we educate our children of that sinful past, not censor it.

There are people who support the flag who support none of what the Confederacy stood for. The American Flag itself flew when we started putting Japanese in internment camps, it flew while the same racism that you say the Confederate flag represents was spreading like wildfire. It flew when we decided to drop an atomic weapon on Japan. America has been in existence for 239 years, the Confederacy for only four. Now imagine what flag we would be ridiculing if we only showed the history behind what they represented.

But if we're going to get rid of flags, lets also remove the Gay Pride flag too. Flanigan (spelling?) was a gay man, and that flag represents the LGBT movement. If we are going to stoop to this kind of asininity, let's start here.

The murder spree by a mentally ill racist intent on "starting a race war" was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

If I recall, the Black Lives Matter wanted to start a "race war" long before Roof decided to go on a killing spree. To be honest, they started it. Not him. This is what happens when you stir a pot full of shit.

If a state wants to remove it from state grounds - that is their choice and, imo - it needs to be retired to the annuls of history.

Like I told Aaron, I'm not even referring to that. I'll refer you to that response now. I don't feel like reiterating.

We're the United States of America. Not the North and the South. The war is over. It's been over for more than a century. Time to move on. As far as "banning it" - people can do what they wish on private property, display what flags they want to and it's no one else's business.

That's ironic. Instead of North and South, we're black and white. We're still talking race long after the Confederacy lost and the Civil Rights Act was passed. Black Lives Matter here, white lives matter there. We're not "The United States of America" anymore, just the "Divided States of America." There is too much division in America for it to be truly United.

Well, as for "banning it" people can't fly a flag they can no longer buy from mainstream retailers. Walmart, Amazon... just to name a couple.

The rainbow flag has only ever represented one thing - gay rights. ... The person who committed this recent crime was a mentally ill disgruntled ex-employee who saw racism as the reason for all his problems and who also happened to be gay. I don't recall seeing any pictures of him with a rainbow flag and a bunch of guns, or any indication he wanted to start a sexual orientation war, or that gay rights had anything to do with his actions.

But suddenly, as that tweet points out, and as you've confirmed, the narrative changes. Why? Why can't we use the argument "the Confederate Flag represents our heritage, not hatred?" When a gay man kills two people on live television, there is no one calling for the removal "to the annals of history" the flag that represented him. Suddenly the argument is that of those who defended the Confederate one "that flag didn't kill those people, how would banning a flag change that?"

Whether you agree with it or not, violence, slavery, segregation, lynchings etc have never been a part of that movement.

That, milady is a topic for another thread. I can list off many instances where violence against dissenters was perpetrated by the gay rights movement. But let's stay on topic for now.

I don't believe it stands on any state property side by side with the American Flag.

No, but if we're going to ban flags over acts of violence, why don't we just ban all three of them and be done with it? (dripping sarcasm)

So who's this 'we' you keep talking about, as in 'we' banned the flag?

 

[ABikerSailor]

The difference is that Roof wanted to start a race war and had many pictures of himself with the confederate flag.

To the best of my knowledge, the only reason that idiot shot those 2 television people is because he had a resentment against them for his being fired, and although he's gay, I don't know of any pictures of him with a gay pride flag.

And you think that flying the confederate battle flag isn't racist? It wasn't until the late 50's when Southern governors were pissed about having to allow Civil rights, that they began flying that flag as a protest against civil rights.

Look up the history of it sometime.

 

[TemplarKormac]

To the best of my knowledge, the only reason that idiot shot those 2 television people is because he had a resentment against them for his being fired, and although he's gay, I don't know of any pictures of him with a gay pride flag.

I have to say I'm perplexed by the fact nobody read his manifesto. He said he was being bullied for being black and gay. I didn't see anything about his being let go as a motive for the murders. But see, this is what I'm talking about, all that was needed was a picture to have something removed or banned from the public sight. Well, he said he was gay, and we all know what the Gay Pride flag represents.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"We banned a flag not too long ago..."

Wrong again, as usual.

No flag was 'banned.'

Any American anywhere in the United States can display the 'confederate' flag in any venue he so desires absent punitive measures by the government.

 

[ABikerSailor]

To the best of my knowledge, the only reason that idiot shot those 2 television people is because he had a resentment against them for his being fired, and although he's gay, I don't know of any pictures of him with a gay pride flag.

I have to say I'm perplexed by the fact nobody read his manifesto. He said he was being bullied for being black and gay. I didn't see anything about his being let go as a motive for the murders. But see, this is what I'm talking about, all that was needed was a picture to have something removed or banned from the public sight. Well, he said he was gay, and we all know what the Gay Pride flag represents.

I guess you missed the fact that after he was fired from his job at the television station, he rented a place across the street from that same television station.

No, this wasn't about gay pride or anything like that, it was because he resented those two for his being fired.

And................if you check into his personal history, you'd see that this wasn't the first time he was fired and blamed others for his being let go.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I guess you missed the fact that after he was fired from his job at the television station, he rented a place across the street from that same television station.

And? Does this somehow reveal his true motives for the murder?

No, this wasn't about gay pride or anything like that, it was because he resented those two for his being fired.

I really don't think that's true, not from what I read of his manifesto. You'd think he would have stated that plainly.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Listen to the news and you'll understand he was pissed at those two for getting him fired.

 

[Coyote]

The sentiments for and against the Confederate Flag go much further back than one murder spree.

Sentiments that until then never really amounted to anything. I disagree with this assertion. Nobody started banning the flag until after Roof killed those 9 people in the church. No online retailers were taking it off the shelf before then. Nobody cared until then. Yeah, the distaste was there, but people really didn't care.

Not true.

But first - you are talking about two completely different things. Pressure and legislative efforts to remove it from government buildings and public property have been ongoing for a long time. That is nothing new.

As far as online retailers taking if off the shelf - imo, that is sillyness but in the end, a business decision they choose to make. You are right in that regard - no one cared that much until the most recent event.

It's been a contentious and divisive symbol. While it represents "good" southern values and states rights to one segment of the American population, it also represents slavery, Jim Crowe, lynchings, racism, injustice and segregation to another.

So, removing it from public view amounts to what? Censorship? I don't really care what a flag represents. Good values altogether dictate we educate our children of that sinful past, not censor it.

There are people who support the flag who support none of what the Confederacy stood for. The American Flag itself flew when we started putting Japanese in internment camps, it flew while the same racism that you say the Confederate flag represents was spreading like wildfire. It flew when we decided to drop an atomic weapon on Japan. America has been in existence for 239 years, the Confederacy for only four. Now imagine what flag we would be ridiculing if we only showed the history behind what they represented.

But if we're going to get rid of flags, lets also remove the Gay Pride flag too. Flanigan (spelling?) was a gay man, and that flag represents the LGBT movement. If we are going to stoop to this kind of asininity, let's start here.

Removing it from public view is not censorship unless someone is forcing private citizens to remove it from private property. I agree - we need to teach our children the good and bad, but removing it from public display and putting it in a museum where it belongs as part of our history isn't altering what we teach our children.

The problem is that the confederate flag first and foremost represents a rebellion and the losing side in a war. It represents - from it's initiation - an acceptance and support of slavery as a defining "right" of those states. You can't remove that foundation from it and pretend that some percieved "good values" outweigh it's origins. The people most effected by what that flag represents are the descendents of slavery ...how would you convince them that it represents good values? It's a bit like trying to white wash a Nazi flag.

Going to the Gay Pride flag - what negative things does it represent that it should be removed from the market place? I don't believe it flies on any government buildings or properties, unlike the confederate flag. The shooter happened to be gay but there is no evidence his actions were done under the cover of Gay Pride. If a mass killer comes from Colorado...should we remove the Colorado Flag? If a mass killer is a Tea Party advocate - should we remove the Tea Party Flag? None of the above flags have strong negative values bound to them.

The murder spree by a mentally ill racist intent on "starting a race war" was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

If I recall, the Black Lives Matter movement wanted to start a "race war" long before Roof decided to go on a killing spree. To be honest, they started it. Not him. This is what happens when you stir a pot full of shit.

As I remember, Black Lives Matter, initiated by parents and families, started as a movement to bring attention to real problem: disproportionate numbers of black people being killed by police (in comparison to whites in the same situations) and a lack of any seeming accountability. It's a movement designed to bring attention to a problem. In that sense - it's no different than say the Tea Party Movment. No where is there a stated or implied intent of starting a "race war". Are they supposed to remain silent?

Roof specifically stated his intent.

Blaming Black Lives Matter is like blaming a rape victim for being raped because of how she was dressed.

If a state wants to remove it from state grounds - that is their choice and, imo - it needs to be retired to the annuls of history.

Like I told Aaron, I'm not even referring to that. I'll refer you to that response now. I don't feel like reiterating.

We're the United States of America. Not the North and the South. The war is over. It's been over for more than a century. Time to move on. As far as "banning it" - people can do what they wish on private property, display what flags they want to and it's no one else's business.

That's ironic. Instead of North and South, we're black and white. We're still talking race long after the Confederacy lost and the Civil Rights Act was passed. Black Lives Matter here, white lives matter there. We're not "The United States of America" anymore, just the "Divided States of America." There is too much division in America for it to be truly United.

Well, as for "banning it" people can't fly a flag they can no longer buy from mainstream retailers. Walmart, Amazon... just to name a couple.

We're still talking race because it has yet to be resolved. White lives have always mattered - more than black lives, latino lives, native american lives...who gets racially profiled? Who's more likely to be incarcerated? Who's more likely to get the death penalty? Who's more likely to be killed by police?

I think anyone should be able to fly a flag of thier choice. I think any retailer should be able to sell what ever flags they want. That's their business.

The rainbow flag has only ever represented one thing - gay rights. ... The person who committed this recent crime was a mentally ill disgruntled ex-employee who saw racism as the reason for all his problems and who also happened to be gay. I don't recall seeing any pictures of him with a rainbow flag and a bunch of guns, or any indication he wanted to start a sexual orientation war, or that gay rights had anything to do with his actions.

But suddenly, as that tweet points out, and as you've confirmed, the narrative changes. Why? Why can't we use the argument "the Confederate Flag represents our heritage, not hatred?" When a gay man kills two people on live television, there is no one calling for the removal "to the annals of history" the flag that represented him. Suddenly the argument is that of those who defended the Confederate one "that flag didn't kill those people, how would banning a flag change that?"

The gay pride flag has never represented hatred so it seems kind of silly to single it out for this example.
The issue you seem to have with the Confederate Flag is you want to change it's meaning either by reinventing it or whitewashing it. People have the right to do that but it's an uphill slog because of the very values that flag was founded upon and came to represent after the war. You aren't going to change that by then attacking a flag that is free of those sorts of associations and trying to make it comparable.

You're also completely missing the point - the gay flag has never been used to promote violence. The fact that the killer in this one incident is gay doesn't mean he is using the flag to justify his actions. As you recall, Roof posed in multiple pictures with the confederate flag.

No one is BANNING a flag. If it were banned - I'd agree with you more. But it isn't banned. Do you have the right to buy it? Yes. Do you have the right to fly it? Yes.

Flags don't kill people - the Nazi flag didn't kill anyone either. But they are powerful and potent symbols that rally people to a cause or an identity.

Whether you agree with it or not, violence, slavery, segregation, lynchings etc have never been a part of that movement.

That, milady is a topic for another thread. I can list off many instances where violence against dissenters was perpetrated by the gay rights movement. But let's stay on topic for now.

I don't believe it stands on any state property side by side with the American Flag.

No, but if we're going to ban flags over acts of violence, why don't we just ban all three of them and be done with it? (dripping sarcasm)

Your sarcasm is a bit misplaced.

First - no flag is being "banned".
Second - the outcry over the confederate flag is not due to one act of violence but rather, that the one act was the tipping point for public condemnation.

 

[L.K.Eder]

2nd best thread ever.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yeah..................I'm kinda wondering how that flag is "banned", because there are a whole bunch of rednecks here in Amarillo that have them flying from their houses and from their trucks, some with as many as 3 of them in the bed of their truck.

If I had the money, I'd buy gay pride flags and replace all the confederate ones I could find with them.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

COYOTE SAID:

'I think anyone should be able to fly a flag of thier choice. I think any retailer should be able to sell what ever flags they want. That's their business.
[...]
[N]o flag is being "banned".'

Correct.

In fact, everyone is at liberty to fly the flag of his choice, and retailers are at liberty to sell whatever they want – or not, including flags they perceive to be symbols of racism and hate, such as the 'confederate' flag; and should a retailer decide not to sell 'confederate' flags, that decision in no way constitutes a 'ban,' or 'violates' the right of others to display such a flag.

 

[Moonglow]

Get back in the basement, kid. You don't have any clue what you're talking about.

IOW

"I can't debate the OP so I will resort to calling names."

Yeah. Go back to bed, granny.

Can't debate ignorance and stupidity...

 

[ABikerSailor]

I actually like it when people display the confederate flag.

Makes it easier to spot the idiots.