Waterboarding? 183 Times? Wrong...

[Iriemon]

Mohammed similarly told the Red Cross that "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month." Those were his five "sessions"; the precise number of applications is not known but is a fraction of the 183 figure.

It wasn't 183. He admitted it himself.

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

All three facts are far from established in my mind.

The fact that the CIA reported it to be 183 times is more persuansive in my mind. Why would the CIA exagerrate the number of times he was waterboarded?

 

[PoliticalChic]

And you are a fool. We hung some Japanese soldiers for doing that to our boys. As McCain stated, it isn't so much what torture does to the terrorists, as what it does to us. The people that set this up should see jail time.

No, we didn't.

I haven't seen evidence we hung anyone solely for waterboarding. However Japs were prosecuted and sentenced 15 years hard labor solely for waterboarding. The US treated it as a war crime.

Well here's one where you're absolutely and totally wrong. So many times when I've posted legitamate sources, you say they are "biased." Let's see if you claim it is "biased" from Media Matters.

Not only was Asano not executed, but his 15-year sentence was for a host of crimes besides waterboarding. According to the U.C. Berkeley War Crimes center:

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications: beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward [emphasis in original]

Media Matters - NRO's Hemingway gets history wrong in accusing Begala of botching facts

Since you've used the politically incorrect term "Japs," would you mind sharing with us the names of some of the other Asian brethren who you claim were convicted of waterboarding?

Are you able to say how much of the 15 years hard labor received was for the specific infraction of waterboarding, and how much was for beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes?

It kind of obviates the point of your post, doesn't it?

 

[Iriemon]

No, we didn't.

I haven't seen evidence we hung anyone solely for waterboarding. However Japs were prosecuted and sentenced 15 years hard labor solely for waterboarding. The US treated it as a war crime.

That is not true either. Annie posted an article in the last thread you repeated this, stating the soldiers procecuted also burned people with cig's,beat them etc.. They didn't just get sentenced for "waterboarding".

I don't remember Annie's post. Someone posted a Wiki article about various torture that was done in Siagon, but that is different.

Here again for anyone who wants to see it is my post containing five separate sources that they the Japs were convicted for waterboarding. There are many others if you do a google search.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1175155-post446.html

 

[Burp]

Mohammed similarly told the Red Cross that "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month." Those were his five "sessions"; the precise number of applications is not known but is a fraction of the 183 figure.

It wasn't 183. He admitted it himself.

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

All three facts are far from established in my mind.

The fact that the CIA reported it to be 183 times is more persuansive in my mind. Why would the CIA exagerrate the number of times he was waterboarded?

Sorry. I didn't realize the Red Cross lied.

My bad.

 

[Iriemon]

No, we didn't.

I haven't seen evidence we hung anyone solely for waterboarding. However Japs were prosecuted and sentenced 15 years hard labor solely for waterboarding. The US treated it as a war crime.

Well here's one where you're absolutely and totally wrong. So many times when I've posted legitamate sources, you say they are "biased." Let's see if you claim it is "biased" from Media Matters.

Not only was Asano not executed, but his 15-year sentence was for a host of crimes besides waterboarding. According to the U.C. Berkeley War Crimes center:

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications: beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward [emphasis in original]

Media Matters - NRO's Hemingway gets history wrong in accusing Begala of botching facts

Since you've used the politically incorrect term "Japs," would you mind sharing with us the names of some of the other Asian brethren who you claim were convicted of waterboarding?

Are you able to say how much of the 15 years hard labor received was for the specific infraction of waterboarding, and how much was for beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes?

It kind of obviates the point of your post, doesn't it?

Good post, I appreciate you make an argument backed up with good sources. It's refreshing to see. Rep for you.

It doesn't completely obviate my point. The point is whether the US considered waterboarding a form of torture and a war crime. The fact that the US prosecuted Japanese for waterboarding as torture establishes that. If they were simultaneously prosecuted for other forms of torture, that would go to the severity of the sentence.

 

[Iriemon]

Mohammed similarly told the Red Cross that "I was also subjected to 'water-boarding' on five occasions, all of which occurred during the first month." Those were his five "sessions"; the precise number of applications is not known but is a fraction of the 183 figure.

It wasn't 183. He admitted it himself.

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

All three facts are far from established in my mind.

The fact that the CIA reported it to be 183 times is more persuansive in my mind. Why would the CIA exagerrate the number of times he was waterboarded?

Sorry. I didn't realize the Red Cross lied.

My bad.

They did?

 

[Burp]

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

All three facts are far from established in my mind.

The fact that the CIA reported it to be 183 times is more persuansive in my mind. Why would the CIA exagerrate the number of times he was waterboarded?

Sorry. I didn't realize the Red Cross lied.

My bad.

They did?

Your post # 21.

The Red Cross reported that he said that. You pointed out:

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

Assuming KSM said that - the Red Cross said he did. The Red Cross lied about him saying that?

 

[Iriemon]

Sorry. I didn't realize the Red Cross lied.

My bad.

They did?

Your post # 21.

The Red Cross reported that he said that. You pointed out:

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

Assuming KSM said that - the Red Cross said he did. The Red Cross lied about him saying that?

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

 

[catzmeow]

If fraternities can use water boarding as a form of initiation, it must not be too bad.

Which fraternities use water boarding? Furthermore, do you think that the terror suspects CONSENTED to being waterboarded?

So now, your justifications are that if a group of drunken college idiots do it to each other, it must be okay?

Jeeze y'all. Really? You're really going to do this?

I must admit to being dumbfounded.

 

[Iriemon]

I haven't seen evidence we hung anyone solely for waterboarding. However Japs were prosecuted and sentenced 15 years hard labor solely for waterboarding. The US treated it as a war crime.

Well here's one where you're absolutely and totally wrong. So many times when I've posted legitamate sources, you say they are "biased." Let's see if you claim it is "biased" from Media Matters.

Not only was Asano not executed, but his 15-year sentence was for a host of crimes besides waterboarding. According to the U.C. Berkeley War Crimes center:

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications: beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward [emphasis in original]

Media Matters - NRO's Hemingway gets history wrong in accusing Begala of botching facts

Since you've used the politically incorrect term "Japs," would you mind sharing with us the names of some of the other Asian brethren who you claim were convicted of waterboarding?

Are you able to say how much of the 15 years hard labor received was for the specific infraction of waterboarding, and how much was for beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes?

It kind of obviates the point of your post, doesn't it?

Good post, I appreciate you make an argument backed up with good sources. It's refreshing to see. Rep for you.

It doesn't completely obviate my point. The point is whether the US considered waterboarding a form of torture and a war crime. The fact that the US prosecuted Japanese for waterboarding as torture establishes that. If they were simultaneously prosecuted for other forms of torture, that would go to the severity of the sentence.

Having read the Media Matters article, which ultimately vidicates McCain's statement, it puts doubt in the assertion in my sources that Asano was prosecuted solely for waterboarding.

However, the article also makes it clear that US in all the various jurisidictions of trials against the Japanese for war crimes viewed waterboarding in all its various forms as torture and prosecuted Japanese for doing it as well as other forms of torture.

I thought this little point at the end was very interesting:

R. John Pritchard, a historian and lawyer who is a top scholar on the trials, said the Japanese felt the ends justified the means. "The rapid and effective collection of intelligence then, as now, was seen as vital to a successful struggle, and in addition, those who were engaged in torture often felt that whatever pain and anguish was suffered by the victims of torture was nothing less than the just deserts of the victims or people close to them," he said.

Does that argument sound familiar?

 

[Burp]

They did?

Your post # 21.

The Red Cross reported that he said that. You pointed out:

That is all assuming 1) KSM did say that 2) If he did say that he was being honest and not holding back because he was afraid of being waterboarded more 3) Fox News reported the information in a fair and balanced way.

Assuming KSM said that - the Red Cross said he did. The Red Cross lied about him saying that?

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

Is it possible that aliens will attack the world tomorrow?

I suppose so.

I guess that is the easy way to go. If there is information that doesn't support your side, simply question it's accuracy.

 

[Iriemon]

Your post # 21.

The Red Cross reported that he said that. You pointed out:



Assuming KSM said that - the Red Cross said he did. The Red Cross lied about him saying that?

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

Is it possible that aliens will attack the world tomorrow?

I suppose so.

I guess that is the easy way to go. If there is information that doesn't support your side, simply question it's accuracy.

Or alternatively, if you want to be more persuasive to make a point, cite something more objective that Fox News. And yes, when we have a CIA memo saying he was waterboarded 183, I do question Fox's accuracy. Sorry if that offends your sense of fairness if you view Fox as a fountain of objectivity and veracity.

But irrespective, we are left with the Fox report on the Red cross on the one hand, and the CIA memo on the other.

 

[Burp]

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

Is it possible that aliens will attack the world tomorrow?

I suppose so.

I guess that is the easy way to go. If there is information that doesn't support your side, simply question it's accuracy.

Or alternatively, if you want to be more persuasive to make a point, cite something more objective that Fox News. And yes, when we have a CIA memo saying he was waterboarded 183, I do question Fox's accuracy. Sorry if that offends your sense of fairness if you view Fox as a fountain of objectivity and veracity.

But irrespective, we are left with the Fox report on the Red cross on the one hand, and the CIA memo on the other.

Good Grief.

Page 11

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

 

[Old Rocks]

All you Obamatrons let me down. I thought for sure you would put your spin on this story..say it isn't true.

Of course, once the truth comes out, you are all too embarrassed to even post.

Typical.

The real question is why you would post something from Fox News and expect anyone who does not rely on the Murdoch outlets for their worldview to be persuaded by it.

Fox states:

The New York Times reported last week that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.

That makes it sound like the NYT came up with the 183 figure. But as I understand it, that figure came from the CIA memos. In true "fair and balanced" fashion, Fox doesn't mention that little bit of information.

Fox's claim that the 183 was for each pour lasting only "a matter of seconds" was from an unidentified "U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation"

Sorry if I'm not blown over by the evidence.

Fox sued for and won the right to make false statements. They use it regularly.

 

[Burp]

All you Obamatrons let me down. I thought for sure you would put your spin on this story..say it isn't true.

Of course, once the truth comes out, you are all too embarrassed to even post.

Typical.

The real question is why you would post something from Fox News and expect anyone who does not rely on the Murdoch outlets for their worldview to be persuaded by it.

Fox states:

The New York Times reported last week that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.

That makes it sound like the NYT came up with the 183 figure. But as I understand it, that figure came from the CIA memos. In true "fair and balanced" fashion, Fox doesn't mention that little bit of information.

Fox's claim that the 183 was for each pour lasting only "a matter of seconds" was from an unidentified "U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation"

Sorry if I'm not blown over by the evidence.

Fox sued for and won the right to make false statements. They use it regularly.

Good Grief.

Page 11

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

 

[Old Rocks]

Your post # 21.

The Red Cross reported that he said that. You pointed out:



Assuming KSM said that - the Red Cross said he did. The Red Cross lied about him saying that?

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

Is it possible that aliens will attack the world tomorrow?

I suppose so.

I guess that is the easy way to go. If there is information that doesn't support your side, simply question it's accuracy.

Given the statement "We do not torture". Why should we believe anything that you or any of that cretin's supporters have to say?

 

[Old Rocks]

If fraternities can use water boarding as a form of initiation, it must not be too bad.

Lordy, lordy. Dumb and dumber.

 

[manu1959]

And you are a fool. We hung some Japanese soldiers for doing that to our boys. As McCain stated, it isn't so much what torture does to the terrorists, as what it does to us. The people that set this up should see jail time.

a link to your claim......

 

[Burp]

It is possible the Red Cross was inaccurate in its report. It is possible that Fox News isn't giving a fair and balanced account.

Obviously there is a discrepancy between Fox News' report of what the Red Cross said and the 183 figure reported in the CIA memo.

Is it possible that aliens will attack the world tomorrow?

I suppose so.

I guess that is the easy way to go. If there is information that doesn't support your side, simply question it's accuracy.

Given the statement "We do not torture". Why should we believe anything that you or any of that cretin's supporters have to say?

Hey, I'm just reading the Red Cross report.

 

[Annie]

And you are a fool. We hung some Japanese soldiers for doing that to our boys. As McCain stated, it isn't so much what torture does to the terrorists, as what it does to us. The people that set this up should see jail time.

a link to your claim......

Should be good, as it's so far from truth.