Wanted bus bomber killed 10/22.

Sweet_Caroline

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Slain Terrorist was Wanted for Bus Bombing

The terrorist killed Tuesday in Samaria is Mohammed Atzi, 28, a planner of Tel Aviv bus bombing last year.

By Gil Ronen
First Publish: 10/22/2013, 11:00 AM


The terrorist killed Tuesday October 22 in a cave by IDF and Shin Bet special forces in Samaria is Mohammed Atzi, 28, a planner of a Tel Aviv bus bombing last year.

Bil'in: IDF Kills Terrorist Who Fired from Cave - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

Terrorist Attack on Tel Aviv Bus; Hamas Celebrates - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News



The attack, which injured 29, was carried out in the course of the IDF counter-terror operation in Gaza, Pillar of Defense.

Atzi had been in Israeli custody several times in the past and was being hunted after by the Shin Bet.

He was eliminated Tuesday after holing up in a cave near Dolev, in the western Binyamin region. Special IDF and Shin Bet forces killed him after exchanging fire with him for about an hour. There were no Israeli casualties.

The bus attack took place November 21, 2012. In the attack, a terrorist left a bomb that exploded in a Dan bus originating in the nearby city of Bat Yam on Shaul HaMelech street in central Tel Aviv, around noon. Three people suffered serious injuries, two of whom needed surgery.

No one was killed, although the area teems with Israeli civilians as it is the location of the Tel Aviv courts, banks and major businesses.

Twenty-one people were evacuated to Icholov Hospital, just one street away, most of them with lesser injuries.

Slain Terrorist was Wanted for Bus Bombing - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFKqxRC2vss]Terrorist Attack on Bus in Tel Aviv - YouTube[/ame]


 
I cannot celebrate over the loss of a human life - but it seems this man's life he'd decided to waste in a futile effort to attack civilians on public transit.

The world is a better and a safer place without WHOEVER plants bombs on buses to maim and murder innocent people. That kind of action is indeed a 'war crime', a form of 'collective punishment'.....

What I do celebrate is that none of the brave ones who protect the land and people of Israel were killed in bringing this terrorist's murderous career to an end.
 
Lipush, et al,

Reference: IDF says terrorist killed in cave 'threatened forces for months'

There is a couple interesting points in the article. Remembering that Shomron is rather foothill mountain like terrain, and not heavily populated; but near Palestinian villages of Naima and Bilin in the West Bank.

Bravo! Whoever tries to kill Israeli civilians belongs in nowhere but the grave
(COMMENT)

  • The terrorist was identified as an operative of the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ).
  • Blood, bullet casings and cans of food were found in the cave.

The cell was at least three, but possibly more. There was blood found, that indicates the cave had been used to render medical aid. So, there might yet be some safe-house that is being used that is undiscovered.

But using a cave is a sign that local indigenous support is low (which is actually a good sign). Especially when you find canned food. It means that they were not supported to the degree that they could risk hiding in the village and feared discovery.

Interestingly enough, they were said to be PIJ. They are normally associated with operations near the Gaza Strip (HAMAS associates and Muslim Brotherhood); not Fedayeen (FATAH). That is interesting because of the implications. It may be the case that HAMAS is attempting to make it appear that West Bank Palestinians (which are more FATAH oriented) are responsible for the attacks.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
The area is a seen of regular weekly protests at Bilin. Cameramen and B'Tselem regularly congregate there. It is where they filmed that obnoxious loud-mouthed blond 10 year old hitting Israeli soldiers and being egged on by her family.
 
Sweet_Caroline, et al,

Yes, a very good observation.

The area is a seen of regular weekly protests at Bilin. Cameramen and B'Tselem regularly congregate there. It is where they filmed that obnoxious loud-mouthed blond 10 year old hitting Israeli soldiers and being egged on by her family.
(COMMENT)

I have no objection to the Arab-Palestinian peacefully protesting their issues and claims. I really don't have all that much objection to active (disruptive) - yet non-lethal, Arab-Palestinian protests that are truly indigenous and not externally influenced or motivated. Such protests are a fact of life when two-parties (Arab-Israeli) are locked in conflict.

I do find it rather barbaric that Arab protagonist actively use children (un-emancipated) in such protest that do not have the capacity to mentally evaluate the issues and understand the degree to which claims should be actively protested. While I disapprove of the organized or spontaneous rock throwing events, I recognize the difference in the level of magnitude, the danger to which rock throwing differs from rocket launching.

Several months ago, I indicated that I thought the time for Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank was at hand. That Israel should, lock, stock and barrel, pull out in a non-destructive manner (settlers and all); cutting all ties with both the West Bank and Gaza (a separation of 100%); totally closing borders and moving all Israeli interests to the Israeli side of the Security Barrier. This may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available. It would not be doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. (But this is just one man's idea.)

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Thank you for your views Rocco, but Israel won't be pulling out of the West Bank, not at all. Not just my wish but for lots of reasons which have been discussed on other boards here and don't really need to be discussed right here, going round and round in circles.

You mentioned the difference between rockets and rock throwing. Actually rock throwing is not as innocent as it seems. Sirens sound for each rocket coming from Gaza into Israel and people can get to a shelter, safe room or hide under a table etc. They are well able to do the drill and shelter efficiently.

However a driver never knows when a rock will hit. It could be thrown at a car driven by a Jewish driver (the registration plate on the car identifies it), thrown from a car moving in the opposite direction, thereby doubling the strength of the hit. Rocks, boulders, stones etc kill and maim. That has definitely happened. Also people just walking are also prone to these rock attacks.

So really there is not such a difference between rockets into Israel and rock throwing/slingshots etc. Each are dangerous in their own way.
 
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Sweet_Caroline, et al,

We will have to agree to disagree and a few points here.

Thank you for your views Rocco, but Israel won't be pulling out of the West Bank, not at all. Not just my wish but for lots of reasons which have been discussed on other boards here and don't really need to be discussed right here, going round and round in circles.

You mentioned the difference between rockets and rock throwing. Actually rock throwing is not as innocent as it seems. Sirens sound for each rocket coming from Gaza into Israel and people can get to a shelter, safe room or hide under a table etc. They are well able to do the drill and shelter efficiently.

However a driver never knows when a rock will hit. It could be thrown at a car driven by a Jewish driver (the registration plate on the car identifies it), thrown from a car moving in the opposite direction, thereby doubling the strength of the hit. Rocks, boulders, stones etc kill and maim. That has definitely happened. Also people just walking are also prone to these rock attacks.

So really there is not such a difference between rockets into Israel and rock throwing/slingshots etc. Each are dangerous in their own way.
(COMMENT)

  • First, there is nothing that we do in life, that doesn't have some risk attached to it. (It is one of those very rare cases where you can actually use the word "never" and "always.") There is always a risk. In the case of a hostile occupation of territory, every day is fought with risk. It is the magnitude of the risk that varies. And rock throwing is much more preferable to rocket throwing; always. While each can have very adverse consequence and are potentially lethal; while each are dangerous activities, the probability of surviving a rock throwing incident is many times greater than surviving a rocket attack. This is particularly true in the case of a near miss and direct hit (cases of proximity - doubtless you've heard the old soldiers adage of near misses don't count except in the game of horseshoes and hand grenades).

  • Occupation of the territories is never case of forever. It is not possible for the State of Israel to annex either the West Bank or Gaza Strip unless the Palestinians capitulate. And even then, the territory would revert back to the status of unapportioned territory under the trusteeship of the UN Security Council direction (Articles 76 and 83, CHAPTER XII: INTERNATIONAL TRUSTEESHIP SYSTEM, UN Charter). There are several other options that have to be worked through. But at the moment, the West Bank and Gaza Strip are sovereign under the 1988 Declaration of Independence, pursuant to GA/RES/181(II). Remember, that which afforded the opportunity to create the Jewish State, also gave rise to an opportunity to create another Arab State; as well as, a free Jerusalem.

  • The expense of an extensive long-term occupation has multiple costs associate with it; economically, militarily, politically and in the maintenance of legitimacy. There is very little question that at the expense of peace, Israel will relinquish its hold over both the West Bank and quasi-hold over the Gaza Strip. Israel cannot hold it indefinitely over the continuous objection of the international community.

While it may be difficult to see a time when Israel may find it necessary to withdraw from the West Bank, such conditions may actually not be that far away. Don't be surprised if Israel, in the course of discussions on restitution, reconciliation, reparations, and legitimate claims, finds it more advantageous to give up control than to retain control at an ever increasing cost.

Most Respectfully, (One Man's Opinion)
R
 
Sweet_Caroline, et al,

We will have to agree to disagree and a few points here.

Thank you for your views Rocco, but Israel won't be pulling out of the West Bank, not at all. Not just my wish but for lots of reasons which have been discussed on other boards here and don't really need to be discussed right here, going round and round in circles.

You mentioned the difference between rockets and rock throwing. Actually rock throwing is not as innocent as it seems. Sirens sound for each rocket coming from Gaza into Israel and people can get to a shelter, safe room or hide under a table etc. They are well able to do the drill and shelter efficiently.

However a driver never knows when a rock will hit. It could be thrown at a car driven by a Jewish driver (the registration plate on the car identifies it), thrown from a car moving in the opposite direction, thereby doubling the strength of the hit. Rocks, boulders, stones etc kill and maim. That has definitely happened. Also people just walking are also prone to these rock attacks.

So really there is not such a difference between rockets into Israel and rock throwing/slingshots etc. Each are dangerous in their own way.
(COMMENT)

  • First, there is nothing that we do in life, that doesn't have some risk attached to it. (It is one of those very rare cases where you can actually use the word "never" and "always.") There is always a risk. In the case of a hostile occupation of territory, every day is fought with risk. It is the magnitude of the risk that varies. And rock throwing is much more preferable to rocket throwing; always. While each can have very adverse consequence and are potentially lethal; while each are dangerous activities, the probability of surviving a rock throwing incident is many times greater than surviving a rocket attack. This is particularly true in the case of a near miss and direct hit (cases of proximity - doubtless you've heard the old soldiers adage of near misses don't count except in the game of horseshoes and hand grenades).

  • Occupation of the territories is never case of forever. It is not possible for the State of Israel to annex either the West Bank or Gaza Strip unless the Palestinians capitulate. And even then, the territory would revert back to the status of unapportioned territory under the trusteeship of the UN Security Council direction (Articles 76 and 83, CHAPTER XII: INTERNATIONAL TRUSTEESHIP SYSTEM, UN Charter). There are several other options that have to be worked through. But at the moment, the West Bank and Gaza Strip are sovereign under the 1988 Declaration of Independence, pursuant to GA/RES/181(II). Remember, that which afforded the opportunity to create the Jewish State, also gave rise to an opportunity to create another Arab State; as well as, a free Jerusalem.

  • The expense of an extensive long-term occupation has multiple costs associate with it; economically, militarily, politically and in the maintenance of legitimacy. There is very little question that at the expense of peace, Israel will relinquish its hold over both the West Bank and quasi-hold over the Gaza Strip. Israel cannot hold it indefinitely over the continuous objection of the international community.

While it may be difficult to see a time when Israel may find it necessary to withdraw from the West Bank, such conditions may actually not be that far away. Don't be surprised if Israel, in the course of discussions on restitution, reconciliation, reparations, and legitimate claims, finds it more advantageous to give up control than to retain control at an ever increasing cost.

Most Respectfully, (One Man's Opinion)
R

Well said, however a peace treaty is much more preferable than a unilateral withdrawal, especially if the Arab League sanctioned it. It would perhaps and hopefully create the acceptance of Jews in this region which they have co-habited for thousands of years.

A withdrawal might be seen as a surrender and inspire Jihadists.
 
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Several months ago, I indicated that I thought the time for Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank was at hand. That Israel should, lock, stock and barrel, pull out in a non-destructive manner (settlers and all); cutting all ties with both the West Bank and Gaza (a separation of 100%); totally closing borders and moving all Israeli interests to the Israeli side of the Security Barrier. This may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available. It would not be doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. (But this is just one man's idea.)
Cool, and what will we type here on when the mortar rounds start flying over the security barrier? What's the next solution, that may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available?
 
Several months ago, I indicated that I thought the time for Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank was at hand. That Israel should, lock, stock and barrel, pull out in a non-destructive manner (settlers and all); cutting all ties with both the West Bank and Gaza (a separation of 100%); totally closing borders and moving all Israeli interests to the Israeli side of the Security Barrier. This may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available. It would not be doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. (But this is just one man's idea.)
Cool, and what will we type here on when the mortar rounds start flying over the security barrier? What's the next solution, that may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available?

Yes. I admire Rocco for his diligence and patience in researching facts on here, but his views sometimes are not quite in line with what is practical for Israel. Everyone knows the worst thing for Israel's wellbeing and security is to give land away. It has never worked in the past, and certainly won't work in the future.
 
Sweet_Caroline,

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes. I admire Rocco for his diligence and patience in researching facts on here, but his views sometimes are not quite in line with what is practical for Israel. Everyone knows the worst thing for Israel's wellbeing and security is to give land away. It has never worked in the past, and certainly won't work in the future.
(COMMENT)

In the final analysis, it will be up to the Israeli wisdom to solve the equation for peace; no question about it. It will be up to them to evaluate the risk and determine how far they are willing to compromise in order to achieve regional stability. Their answer will be the one that truly counts if the are to be the prime mover behind the system that delivers the desired outcome.

But I have no doubt that Israel, in its dialog with the (relatively) new State of Palestine, will have to include some measure of boundary reform and the reapportionment of territorial sovereignty. I simply don't see any other way to achieve a workable solution. It is really a matter of magnitude and cost (current and future).

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Sweet_Caroline,

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes. I admire Rocco for his diligence and patience in researching facts on here, but his views sometimes are not quite in line with what is practical for Israel. Everyone knows the worst thing for Israel's wellbeing and security is to give land away. It has never worked in the past, and certainly won't work in the future.
(COMMENT)

In the final analysis, it will be up to the Israeli wisdom to solve the equation for peace; no question about it. It will be up to them to evaluate the risk and determine how far they are willing to compromise in order to achieve regional stability. Their answer will be the one that truly counts if the are to be the prime mover behind the system that delivers the desired outcome.

But I have no doubt that Israel, in its dialog with the (relatively) new State of Palestine, will have to include some measure of boundary reform and the reapportionment of territorial sovereignty. I simply don't see any other way to achieve a workable solution. It is really a matter of magnitude and cost (current and future).

Most Respectfully,
R

I believe that the PA will refuse any deal that doesn't include right of return and control of the Jordan Valley
 
docmauser1, et al,

A very tall RPG Screen.

Several months ago, I indicated that I thought the time for Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank was at hand. That Israel should, lock, stock and barrel, pull out in a non-destructive manner (settlers and all); cutting all ties with both the West Bank and Gaza (a separation of 100%); totally closing borders and moving all Israeli interests to the Israeli side of the Security Barrier. This may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available. It would not be doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. (But this is just one man's idea.)
Cool, and what will we type here on when the mortar rounds start flying over the security barrier? What's the next solution, that may sound radical, yet may be the best life saving and cost saving option available?
(SERIOUSLY)

The key to a workable solution and viable peace, is the "intention" that both sides enter into the arrangement with "good faith." Like the Chinese Great Wall and the Soviet Iron Curtain, the Israeli Security Barrier only works as an obstacle to risk and a single point barrier to penetration. If there is no reasonable expectation that any peace arrangement is going to result in regional peace, then the arrangement has already failed.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
15th post
There is not going to be peace. The palestinians simply want ALL of Israel for themselves. Any land handed to them makes it easier to get more land eventually getting the whole of the country.

 
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toastman; et al,

This may be true.

Sweet_Caroline,

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes. I admire Rocco for his diligence and patience in researching facts on here, but his views sometimes are not quite in line with what is practical for Israel. Everyone knows the worst thing for Israel's wellbeing and security is to give land away. It has never worked in the past, and certainly won't work in the future.
(COMMENT)

In the final analysis, it will be up to the Israeli wisdom to solve the equation for peace; no question about it. It will be up to them to evaluate the risk and determine how far they are willing to compromise in order to achieve regional stability. Their answer will be the one that truly counts if the are to be the prime mover behind the system that delivers the desired outcome.

But I have no doubt that Israel, in its dialog with the (relatively) new State of Palestine, will have to include some measure of boundary reform and the reapportionment of territorial sovereignty. I simply don't see any other way to achieve a workable solution. It is really a matter of magnitude and cost (current and future).

Most Respectfully,
R

I believe that the PA will refuse any deal that doesn't include right of return and control of the Jordan Valley
(COMMENT)

The "right of return" has within it, an undefined variable. Not all UNRWA Refugees actually fall under General Assembly Resolutions 194 (III) and 302 (IV).

Most Respectfully,
R
 
toastman; et al,

This may be true.

Sweet_Caroline,

Thank you for your kind words.


(COMMENT)

In the final analysis, it will be up to the Israeli wisdom to solve the equation for peace; no question about it. It will be up to them to evaluate the risk and determine how far they are willing to compromise in order to achieve regional stability. Their answer will be the one that truly counts if the are to be the prime mover behind the system that delivers the desired outcome.

But I have no doubt that Israel, in its dialog with the (relatively) new State of Palestine, will have to include some measure of boundary reform and the reapportionment of territorial sovereignty. I simply don't see any other way to achieve a workable solution. It is really a matter of magnitude and cost (current and future).

Most Respectfully,
R

I believe that the PA will refuse any deal that doesn't include right of return and control of the Jordan Valley
(COMMENT)

The "right of return" has within it, an undefined variable. Not all UNRWA Refugees actually fall under General Assembly Resolutions 194 (III) and 302 (IV).

Most Respectfully,
R

What do you mean by that ? Are you talking about different refugees from different periods of times? Or offspring of refugees ?
 
toastman; et al,

Yes, I was hoping to avoid this. It is very controversial. United Nations General Assembly Resolutions 194(III) and 302(IV) are the principle authorities that have been cited over that last six decades; having been reconfirmed (most recently) in the Conclusions of the Special Meeting of a Group of Supporters of UNRWA New York, 26 September 2013 (last month). It was also used as a guiding document just last month (September 2013) by President

Address by Mr. Mahmoud Abbas said:
The negotiations must also resolve the plight of Palestine refugees in a just, agreed-upon solution, in accordance with resolution 194 (III) and as called for by the Arab Peace Initiative.

SOURCE: Sixty-eighth session 12th plenary meeting Thursday, 26 September 2013, 10 a.m. New York

So, we must examine what was agreed to in December 1948, and who it applied to then and now. As well as, the impact of the subsequent, but less talked about, Security Council Resolution 242 (1967).

Security Council Resolution 242 (1967) said:
1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;​

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;​

SOURCE: S/RES/242 (1967) 22 November 1967

The "right of return" has within it, an undefined variable. Not all UNRWA Refugees actually fall under General Assembly Resolutions 194 (III) and 302 (IV).

What do you mean by that ? Are you talking about different refugees from different periods of times? Or offspring of refugees ?

(REFERENCES)

General Assembly resolution 194 (III). Palestine -- Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator said:
11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;

General Assembly resolution 302 (IV). Assistance to Palestine Refugees said:
20. Directs the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East to consult with the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine in the best interests of their respective tasks, with particular reference to paragraph 11 of General Assembly resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948;

SOURCE: A/RES/302 (IV) 8 December 1949

SOURCE: A/RES/194 (III) 11 December 1948

(COMMENT)

The term "refugee" is, in itself, is an imprecise term. The phase in Paragraph 11, specifically states: "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace" is the first restrictive clause. That clause, in itself, eliminates any Arab-Palestinian that supports either the HAMAS Covenant or the Palestine National Charter of 1968; as well as any Arab Palestinian that is obligated under the Arab Higher Committee "solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history of February 1948."

The phrase of consideration is "at the earliest practicable date." If the Israelis had implemented (not making a judgement here) Resolution 194 back in late 1948 or 1949; would it made a difference today? That question depends explicitly on the number of refugees that would have renounced original Arab Higher Committee "solemn oath" of the Arab Palestinian. And if so, what would that number have been?

The third phase of interest is relating to reparation, restitution, reconciliation, and civil claims: that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible. The questions here are:
  • If the Arab-Palestinian did not renounce the Arab Higher Committee "solemn oath," are the entitled to compensation?
  • If the Arab-Palestinian is compensated, are they entitled to return?

The term "refugee" has a few fine points under the Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions (CERI) of the UN Relief and Work Agency for Palestinian Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).

A. Persons eligible to be registered in UNRWA’s Registration System and to receive UNRWA services:

  • 1. Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria
These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services.​

  • 2. Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria. These persons are grouped in the categories listed below.

While registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency. They consist of persons who at the time of original registration did not satisfy all of UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria, but who were determined to have suffered significant loss and/or hardship for reasons related to the 1948 conflict in Palestine; they also include persons who belong to the families of Registered Persons. These categories are:
  • 2.1 Jerusalem Poor and Gaza Poor
  • 2.2 Frontier Villagers
  • 2.3 Compromise Cases
  • 2.4 MNR Family Members
  • 2.5 Non-Refugee Wives
  • 2.6 Kafalah Children
B. Persons eligible to receive UNRWA services without being registered in UNRWA’s Registration System

These persons do not meet, or are unable to prove that they meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria and they do not fall within any of the categories listed in section III. A. 2 above. While UNRWA’s programmes keep due records of these persons, they are referred to as non-registered persons because they are not registered in the Agency’s Registration System.​

So there is a zillion little questions as to who fits what category; when you say refugee. I spoke to many Palestinian Refugee that do not meet the criteria of the "right of return."

Most Respectfully,
R

BTW: This is often a very touchy subject when it comes to Arab-Palestinians, especially Hostile Arab-Palestinians (particularly those Jihadist and Fedayeen). Many, of the however many millions, that claim liberations rights are not actually covered under the agreement.
 
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