Want to start fixing our economy?

[nfiRONWORKER]

I've been around for 56 yrs, and have watched the various way's people try to get these assho**s attention.
Some say flood your congress person (political correctness) with emails, some say have a big demonstration
on this date, while others try to get everyone to take a day off work on such and such a date.
While all these ideas sound good, there's only one way to get them to listen, that's because the
only thing they understand is money. Well, here's a way everyone can participate and not even have
to organize anything.
So, what is it? CLOSE YOUR WALLET!!!! you don't have to live like a hillbilly to do this,
just ask yourselves when you go to purchase something, is this something I need or has the TV
convinced me I have to have it, so I can use it for a few weeks and than store it in my rent-a-space
with all the other junk I'm paying to store and will probably never use again! THINK for yourself,
don't be swayed by the slime oozing out from your TV set, if everyone stopped spending $100 a month
it would throw them into a panic. Fuc* all that junk, the more you put on your plastic, the longer you
stay there slaves, and guess what, they don't give a sh*it about you, just how much money you spend,
and of course there's not enough money in the world to make them happy, so chances are they already have
plans to move to Mexico or some ware else so they can screw us out of a living and have to take a job
making 1/2 of what you used to make, so, CLOSE YOUR WALLET.

 

[editec]

American ARE closing their wallets.

Mostly they have very little choice given that their home economies are being sucked dry by the rising cost of energy.

 

[Paulie]

American ARE closing their wallets.

Yeah, because they finally reached debt capacity and now have no other choice.

Amassing more debt than you can handle certainly wasn't the best way to get to the point where you finally realized you needed to close your wallet.

 

[indago]

nfiRONWORKER wrote:

Well, here's a way everyone can participate and not even have
to organize anything.
So, what is it? CLOSE YOUR WALLET!!!!

Also, DON'T VOTE FOR ANY DEMOLICANS

 

[editec]

Amassing more debt than you can handle certainly wasn't the best way to get to the point where you finally realized you needed to close your wallet.

Blaming the victims much there, Paulitics?

People without debt are ALSO having trouble spending money on needed things given the cost of energy is destroying their home economies.

The myth that most people are in trouble because of credit debt is just that...a cherished neo-con myth.

If you look at the cause of bankruptsies before the current run up in energy prices, you discover that the number one cause of personal bankruptsy was HEALTH CARE disasters.

Now honesly...who can prepare for the cost of major health problems who are not multimillionaires?

 

[Paulie]

Blaming the victims much there, Paulitics?

People without debt are ALSO having trouble spending money on needed things given the cost of energy is destroying their home economies.

The myth that most people are in trouble because of credit debt is just that...a cherished neo-con myth.

If you look at the cause of bankruptsies before the current run up in energy prices, you discover that the number one cause of personal bankruptsy was HEALTH CARE disasters.

Now honesly...who can prepare for the cost of major health problems who are not multimillionaires?

Yeah, because that $500/mo car you just HAVE to own, that $300/mo payment on top notch furniture you couldn't live without, those hundreds of dollars in credit card payments, and that $2,500/mo house when you probably only needed a $1,000/mo house, isn't taking any money away from your budget that could have payed unforeseen medical expenses.

Everyday you wake up, you could possibly incur a medical problem from ANYTHING. Living within your means allows you to save rather than exist merely to pay off debt. If your savings must be used for a medical problem, better that you had that money saved, than to have to file bankruptcy over it because you couldn't bare to live without your creature comforts.

Let me guess, you're a universal health care proponent...

 

[editec]

Yeah, because that $500/mo car you just HAVE to own, that $300/mo payment on top notch furniture you couldn't live without, those hundreds of dollars in credit card payments, and that $2,500/mo house when you probably only needed a $1,000/mo house, isn't taking any money away from your budget that could have payed unforeseen medical expenses.

Oh, I see. You'll just make up straw-man arguments to make your point.

Fine, if you don't have a logical argument to support your position, you don't.

Let me guess, you're a universal health care proponent...

Whose plan?

Doesn't actually matter.

No plan on the table, liberal or conservative, will solve that problem.

The "single payer universal health insurance system" that the liberal establishment is pushing will inevitably lead to higher prices for medical care, and eventually to national bankruptsy if they initiate it.

The neo-conservative plan (market rules with tax breaks and medical saving plans) is useless as well, because people need to pay taxes and have savings, and about half the people in the USA don't.

I don't see any solution to the health care crises from either camp, really, Paul.

 

[Paulie]

Oh, I see. You'll just make up straw-man arguments to make your point.

Fine, if you don't have a logical argument to support your position, you don't.

Lol. Like that didn't define the American consumer to a T.

What's the average American's debt? Better yet, what's the average American's debt-to-income ratio?

Whose plan?

Doesn't actually matter.

No plan on the table, liberal or conservative, will solve that problem.

The "single payer universal health insurance system" that the liberal establishment is pushing will inevitably lead to higher prices for medical care, and eventually to national bankruptsy if they initiate it.

The neo-conservative plan (market rules with tax breaks and medical saving plans) is useless as well, because people need to pay taxes and have savings, and about half the people in the USA don't.

I don't see any solution to the health care crises from either camp, really, Paul.

I'm not sure there IS a solution, in the political sense. I'd say the real solution lies with the citizens. We demand professional healthcare for many things that we don't really need it for. Should we decide to cut down on our dependence on the doctor, the market might just react on it's own with lower prices. Much like the oil crisis.

But let's just keep pretending that one day, some magical politician is going to come along and "fix" it all for us.

What I can definitely tell you, and you seem to agree, is that socialized health care is not the answer.

 

[Toro]

And collapsing the economy benefits us how again?

People should live within their means and not take out any more debt than they can afford. But reducing spending by $100 a month sends a message to no one, other than ourselves that we can live with less.

BTW, the average household has $8000 of credit card debt.

 

[Paulie]

And collapsing the economy benefits us how again?

People should live within their means and not take out any more debt than they can afford. But reducing spending by $100 a month sends a message to no one, other than ourselves that we can live with less.

BTW, the average household has $8000 of credit card debt.

I'm talking about a lot more than a $100/mo reduction. Christ, for many people, that would just be quitting smoking.

If cutting our debt and expenses down by multiple hundreds of dollars per month so we could afford more important things like healthcare would collapse the economy, than we're already screwed, and that's pretty sad.

$8,000 of credit card debt, and just imagine how much useless, unnecessary crap that's for.

And why SHOULDN'T we send ourselves a message that we can live with less? God forbid someday we all HAD to.

 

[nfiRONWORKER]

Hi all,
My reason for my post wasn't to start a pissing match, nor would I like to see the economy have a melt down,but it seems to me the energy corps are amassing all the currency and siting on it, which means that money isn't being recirculated back into the economy. mobil exon made 11.7 billion in profits in the 4th quarter of 07.
They say its supply and demand and they can't meet the demand?????
Have any of you seen a gas station with a sign "out of gas".
Further more, assuming oil prices are set by OPEC, why did natural gas we heat our homes with almost triple in the last few years? Do we not produce our one natural gas?
My point is these corp are destroying the economy, so now instead of paying more $ monthly on our credit card debt, we'll barly be able to make the min pymt. That will make us slaves to the banks and corp till we die.
also, as I understand it, we get 65% of our gas from Canada. So why do we use OPEC's price per barrell to set our gas prices?
Look at Enron and Price Waterhouse, how many people got scrwed out of the retirement, do you think that this kind of fraud has stoped?
How about Wall Street insider trading, do you really think that isn't still happening? I would guess its the standared way of doing business with them.
How long do you think it will be before the economy just melts down because of their greed?
As long as we keep arguing, they keep doing business as usual.
The average person is going to get screwed no matter what, we buy, they make money, we close our wallet and they don't make money.
Why are people still buying SUV gas hogs? Its because we live in a society that runs on the idea of "keep up with the Jones's".
WE have to make changes in our lives, or they will.
The days of the averege Joe buying a 4000 sq ft house are over, live within your means, keep your 3 yr old car and buy a bike or a small scooter to get around on and leave the gas hog in the drive way, you might as well get used to it, because like it or not, its comming.
I live in NYS, i'm out of here ASAP, had enough of this place.
Ther latest way of closing the budget deficit is to tack on $1.25 tax on cigs.
A pak of cigarettes costs $7.00.
I know, so quite, I agree and am trying, but thats not the point. I go to the Indian reservation and get a pack for $2.25, so that means tax on a pack of cigs is almost $5. If they used that $ to put back into the health system, I'd say ok, but they use it continue there pork spending.
I don't have answers for this Countries problems, its gone on too long with nothing being done, 45 yrs of listening to politions promising to make changes and here we are, the faces change but the game stays the same.
so, why not try closing your wallet, it might work and mabey not, anyone else have an idea that we the people could try short of a revolution?

 

[Gunny]

Oh, I see. You'll just make up straw-man arguments to make your point.

Fine, if you don't have a logical argument to support your position, you don't.



Whose plan?

Doesn't actually matter.

No plan on the table, liberal or conservative, will solve that problem.

The "single payer universal health insurance system" that the liberal establishment is pushing will inevitably lead to higher prices for medical care, and eventually to national bankruptsy if they initiate it.

The neo-conservative plan (market rules with tax breaks and medical saving plans) is useless as well, because people need to pay taxes and have savings, and about half the people in the USA don't.

I don't see any solution to the health care crises from either camp, really, Paul.

Ahh ... the famous words of the psuedo-intellectually elite. What Paulitics suggests is just common sense budgetting. Your calling it a "strawman" and bitching about health care costs has solved the problem how, exactly?

I happen to be "making it" with my wife out of work for a spinal fusion since last Nov on money saved for just such an emergency. I'm not enjoying spending it, but at least I made sure I had it.

Strawman indeed.

 

[editec]

Let us assume that the average American did not have $8000 in credit card debts for purposes of this discussion.

Would a family making $50,000 a year, (that's about the median family income) one with no credit card debt I mean, be able to weather a serious medical problem, then?

The fact is that the average working family cannot possibly save enough money to pay for the inevitable health care problems that they will eventually face, folks.

I don't really give a rat's ass how frugal they are, or how debt free they are, a serious (but common) medical problem can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The cost of medicine has risen far faster than the average salary for the last fourty years.

So to suggest that one can save enough money to deal with a serious medical problem just doesn't add up. The numbers make no sense whatever.

The average family doesn't make enough money to save for that kind of medical disaster.

Face it folks, every one of us sooner or later has that kind of medical disaster unless we're lucky enough to have a fatal heart attack before we even know we were sick.

 

[Diuretic]

...........

The "single payer universal health insurance system" that the liberal establishment is pushing will inevitably lead to higher prices for medical care, and eventually to national bankruptsy if they initiate it.

The neo-conservative plan (market rules with tax breaks and medical saving plans) is useless as well, because people need to pay taxes and have savings, and about half the people in the USA don't.

I don't see any solution to the health care crises from either camp, really, Paul.

Um, it works here, we haven't been bankrupted by it. Why would it bankrupt the US? Hey I'm not saying it's appropriate for your society, I'm just asking why it would bankrupt the US and not my country.

If this is off topic too much then sorry, if it's of any interest I could start a thread.

I should also add this isn't a jaw-jutter, I'm just interested in your claim.

 

[midcan5]

Curious debate. Healthcare is a key item and hopefully one that can soon be provided reasonably for all. But there are a lot of negatives we need to address, some technical but many are psychological, cars that are too big and wasteful, homes that are too far from work etc, habits that are not conducive to good health, and values that care only for the bottom line.

 

[editec]

Um, it works here, we haven't been bankrupted by it. Why would it bankrupt the US? Hey I'm not saying it's appropriate for your society, I'm just asking why it would bankrupt the US and not my country.

I'm not sure where "here" is for you, Diuretic, so I can't comment on why it's working for you.

But I can tell you why the universal health care insurance system that my liberal chums are advancing won't work here in the USA, if you're interested.

You see, the Universal health care system they are demanding isn't SOCIALIZED medicine.

It will be socialized payments INTO a CAPITALIST market.

Now, I am sure you understand what happens when more money is chasing the same amount of goods and services, right?

The price of the goods and services inevitably goes up, does it not?

So what will happen in this mixed economy system is that we will insure all people who are currently not insured (myself, for example) and then the DEMAND will increase dramtically, but the SUPPLY won't.

The cost of health care in the USA really started it dramtic rise when we created Medicade and Medicare bnack in 1964 (or so)

With the stroke of a pen we dramatically increased DEMAND for health care, but we did nothing to increase the SUPPLY of health care.

The rise in the cost of health care was inevitable given that law.

So if we truly want universal health care, we ought to think about doing a fully socialized system to insure that costs don't rise to suck every dollar out of the system without actually giving people any better health care outcomes.

Our system truly sucks, in my opinion. It's the WORST of both worlds.

But the solutions that some people seem to be advancing suck just as badly or worse than what we have now. (which is broken, it needs a solution)

I think we'd be better off by creating more supply (sending people to medical schools for free, for example) to increase supply, thus (hopefuilly) driving down the cost of health care.

Our medical industry (overall) takes FAR TOO MUCH of the pie of this nation's GDP.

We're up to something like 15% of our GDP, now, and frankly, our morbitity and motality statistics suck.

Why?

Because the demand for HC greatly exceeds to SUPPLY of HC, that's why.

 

[Paulie]

Let us assume that the average American did not have $8000 in credit card debts for purposes of this discussion.

Would a family making $50,000 a year, (that's about the median family income) one with no credit card debt I mean, be able to weather a serious medical problem, then?

The fact is that the average working family cannot possibly save enough money to pay for the inevitable health care problems that they will eventually face, folks.

I don't really give a rat's ass how frugal they are, or how debt free they are, a serious (but common) medical problem can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The cost of medicine has risen far faster than the average salary for the last fourty years.

So to suggest that one can save enough money to deal with a serious medical problem just doesn't add up. The numbers make no sense whatever.

The average family doesn't make enough money to save for that kind of medical disaster.

Face it folks, every one of us sooner or later has that kind of medical disaster unless we're lucky enough to have a fatal heart attack before we even know we were sick.

You're assuming the only unnecessary debt and expense in a household is the $8,000 average credit card debt.

You don't want to take into consideration furniture loans, the Chevy Avalanche when you only NEEDED a standard mid-sized sedan, Jet Ski loans, Motorcycle loans, $100's of dollars worth of brand name clothing every month, the CD collection you can't bare to live without adding to, ATM withdrawals, nights out at the bar, cigarettes, weed...???

I mean, I could go on forever with expenses people incur that they don't need. That $8,000 is NOTHING compared to the overall average.

You're not thinking outside the box enough. The debt in this country is unprecedented. You can go on thinking it'll all be ok because this is America and nothing bad can happen to you here, but sooner or later the bills are going to come due.

We going to print our money into worthlessness trying to pay it all off like Weimar? Because, eventually, we're going to have to pay our debts.

 

[Diuretic]

I'm avoiding a thread drift. Editec thank you for your response, has me thinking.
I'll leave it at that

 

[Paulie]

I'm avoiding a thread drift. Editec thank you for your response, has me thinking.
I'll leave it at that

That's discipline right there, baby!

 

[editec]

You're not thinking outside the box enough. The debt in this country is unprecedented. You can go on thinking it'll all be ok because this is America and nothing bad can happen to you here, but sooner or later the bills are going to come due.

We going to print our money into worthlessness trying to pay it all off like Weimar? Because, eventually, we're going to have to pay our debts.

Hey I don't doubt for a moment that too many Americans are too much in debt.

But if you look at what so much of that debt is for and when it started piling on, what you see is that after we sent our women to work, and then after real purchasing power began to fade, more and more americans started seeking credit.

Then when the credit card bills were too high (after they stopped allowing us to deduct the interest, remember that?) then people started refinancing hteir homes to pay off those bulls.

Now with the price of homes collapsing, people are in serious trouble.

You can't have diminishing wages overall, and expect people to be able to cope given the fact t hat people's debt structures are often long term.

I mean it's EASY for a young kid to not spend money. After all he or she probably isn't already committed to a mortgage and lifestyle.

But those who were okay, who were not dumb, who did not take on too much debt are ALSO now in trouble.

And again I will remind you that until recently most personal bankruptsies were the result of health care disasters rather than foolish spending.

This blaming the vcitims crap, while possibly personally satisfying to some of us not in trouble cannot be rationally supported by the aggregate numbers about debts and the American people.