Waiting for Europa

[fncceo]

God did not create aliens? And if there be a deity, you know this how?

From the Book of Genesis. Here's an infograph:

Day One

Day 5,000,000,000,000

Day 6,000+. We should've evolved more by day 5 B.

That's five TRILLION

 

[Wuwei]

This is not creation. One needs a cell in order to create the RNA. One needs a cell to create an amino acid or protein. Humans can only create up to the molecular level. Not the atomic level. Only God can do that.

Miller and Urey put a primordial atmosphere in a chamber and sent sparks through it. amino acids were generated. Proteins are made from RNA, but you don't need much protein for the most primitive creatures.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

... scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments.​

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

No I’m not going to argue.

I didn;'t ask you to debate. I asked you to present your argument to support your claims. repeating your claims is not support of those claims.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And, as much as "why only once" are the many miraculous (for lack of a better word) events that got us here.

This is not evidence of life "only here"... it is only evidence of "life EXACTLY like what is here, only here".

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There was one origin of life. A single unique event.

You could not possibly know the truth of this. In what universe can you just make shit up, DEMAND that it is true, and then it is everyone else's duty to discuss a topic under your authoritative declaration?

 

[DOTR]

It is still statistically small, but think of the improbability as a poker game where everyone is dealt a royal flush. If there are billions of card games going on for millions of years, the improbability becomes an almost certainty.

Synthetic primordial cell copies RNA for the first time

then why isnt it still going on?

 

[DOTR]

There was one origin of life. A single unique event.

You could not possibly know the truth of this. In what universe can you just make shit up, DEMAND that it is true, and then it is everyone else's duty to discuss a topic under your authoritative declaration?

Here is the truth...we only have evidence of a singular event....and we have looked very hard. Anything else is fantasy. I dont attack your fantasies...I enjoy science fiction too. But you shouldn't confuse them with reality.

 

[DOTR]

This is not evidence of life "only here"... it is only evidence of "life EXACTLY like what is here, only here".

Ok show some life that isn't exactly like life here. I would accept that.

 

[DOTR]

I don't know what you mean by "why only once".

There was one origin of life. A single unique event. I wonder why? And if only once in an environment we know is conducive to life then what does that say for the chances extraterrestially?

I don't think that's a mystery. In our solar system there is a sweet spot in which water can remain liquid without boiling away or freezing, and as far as we know, water is one of the necessary ingredients of life. It looks like Mars had it. And it's possible that it could exist on Europa and/or Enceladus. It would exist under hundreds of miles of ice but kept warm by the cores of those moons. So, in our solar system, there could be life on two or three globes, and Mars may have had it a billion or two years ago.

Of course, that's just our solar system, and there are estimated 100 billion trillion other solar systems in the universe in which there could be sweet spots, in which there could be life.

We don't know. Nor can we.
.

You fall prey to the Anthropic Principle. Nevertheless...if it just takes a sweet spot why didnt new life form this morning in my backyard which is full of liquid water, oxygen, hydrogen and carbon?

 

[Mac1958]

I don't know what you mean by "why only once".

There was one origin of life. A single unique event. I wonder why? And if only once in an environment we know is conducive to life then what does that say for the chances extraterrestially?

I don't think that's a mystery. In our solar system there is a sweet spot in which water can remain liquid without boiling away or freezing, and as far as we know, water is one of the necessary ingredients of life. It looks like Mars had it. And it's possible that it could exist on Europa and/or Enceladus. It would exist under hundreds of miles of ice but kept warm by the cores of those moons. So, in our solar system, there could be life on two or three globes, and Mars may have had it a billion or two years ago.

Of course, that's just our solar system, and there are estimated 100 billion trillion other solar systems in the universe in which there could be sweet spots, in which there could be life.

We don't know. Nor can we.
.

You fall prey to the Anthropic Principle. Nevertheless...if it just takes a sweet spot why didnt new life form this morning in my backyard which is full of liquid water, oxygen, hydrogen and carbon?

Maybe it did.

So tell me: Where did we come from?
.

 

[DOTR]

There was one origin of life.

There is only one type of life that has survived to current day.

We don’t know about alternative forms of life that were cut short before they developed further.

The Miller -Urey experiment from the ‘50s has demonstrated unequivocally that organic molecules are relatively easy to create under a wide range of conditions.

Interesting. But organic molecules are not life. Did Millers organic molecules ever grow up and reproduce?

 

[fncceo]

There was one origin of life.

There is only one type of life that has survived to current day.

We don’t know about alternative forms of life that were cut short before they developed further.

The Miller -Urey experiment from the ‘50s has demonstrated unequivocally that organic molecules are relatively easy to create under a wide range of conditions.

Interesting. But organic molecules are not life. Did Millers organic molecules ever grow up and reproduce?

Some of the results of Miller-Urey are proteinogenic molecules that spontaneously assemble in protein chains similar to those in the oldest sections or our RNA.

 

[DOTR]

Maybe it did.

So tell me: Where did we come from?
.

I never pretended to know that. As you said earlier..this is an admission we shouldn't be afraid to make.
What I do know, staying within evidence based reasoning, is that life originated once (ill change my mind when i see the second example). And (2) life is, like consciousness, not reductive. NOT the sum of parts. Not the result of statistics such that we can say it must happen again (3) life went through a series of wildly unlikely filters...each one as improbable as origin itself.
For my opinion on origin, for what its worth, I find Nick Lane compelling. Not being a scientist myself I can only read and try to understand what bigger minds than mine have discerned. And his is one of the biggest.

 

[james bond]

This is not creation. One needs a cell in order to create the RNA. One needs a cell to create an amino acid or protein. Humans can only create up to the molecular level. Not the atomic level. Only God can do that.

Miller and Urey put a primordial atmosphere in a chamber and sent sparks through it. amino acids were generated. Proteins are made from RNA, but you don't need much protein for the most primitive creatures.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

... scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments.​

Much of what they produced was contamination. It's not true that well over 20 different amino acids were produced. Miller-Urey eventually produced trace amounts of amino acids by adjusting for what they perceived to be the early atmosphere. However, they were well short of the essential amino acids needed to produce a protein molecule. Besides, it was impossible to do this because of chilarity. This is the start of chemical evolution, so ToE leads to the study of origins of life.

 

[Wuwei]

It is still statistically small, but think of the improbability as a poker game where everyone is dealt a royal flush. If there are billions of card games going on for millions of years, the improbability becomes an almost certainty.

Synthetic primordial cell copies RNA for the first time

then why isnt it still going on?

Maybe it is going on still. It would be very hard to find among the huge biomass of current life. The current life is going to eat it up right away anyway.

 

[fncceo]

This is not creation. One needs a cell in order to create the RNA. One needs a cell to create an amino acid or protein. Humans can only create up to the molecular level. Not the atomic level. Only God can do that.

Miller and Urey put a primordial atmosphere in a chamber and sent sparks through it. amino acids were generated. Proteins are made from RNA, but you don't need much protein for the most primitive creatures.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

... scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments.​

Much of what they produced was contamination. It's not true that well over 20 different amino acids were produced. Miller-Urey eventually produced trace amounts of amino acids by adjusting for what they perceived to be the early atmosphere. However, they were well short of the essential amino acids needed to produce a protein molecule. Besides, it was impossible to do this because of chilarity. This is the start of chemical evolution, so ToE leads to the study of origins of life.

When Miller-Urey performed their original experiments in the early 1950's, they lacked the equipment to accurately sequence the molecules their experiment produced. Subsequent analysis on sealed samples from their experiments and others replicating their expermiment have identified 30 unique amino acids, 25% of which are proteinogenic.

 

[Wuwei]

Much of what they produced was contamination. It's not true that well over 20 different amino acids were produced. Miller-Urey eventually produced trace amounts of amino acids by adjusting for what they perceived to be the early atmosphere. However, they were well short of the essential amino acids needed to produce a protein molecule. Besides, it was impossible to do this because of chilarity. This is the start of chemical evolution, so ToE leads to the study of origins of life

Contamination? What is your source for contamination? Later scientists investigated the goop and found 20 different amino acids. There are only two possibilities of chilarity. One would win out over the other.

 

[DOTR]

It is still statistically small, but think of the improbability as a poker game where everyone is dealt a royal flush. If there are billions of card games going on for millions of years, the improbability becomes an almost certainty.

Synthetic primordial cell copies RNA for the first time

then why isnt it still going on?

Maybe it is going on still. It would be very hard to find among the huge biomass of current life. The current life is going to eat it up right away anyway.

“Maybe” doesn’t sound very scientific to me. You have some reason to think this is “maybe” happening?

 

[DOTR]

This is not creation. One needs a cell in order to create the RNA. One needs a cell to create an amino acid or protein. Humans can only create up to the molecular level. Not the atomic level. Only God can do that.

Miller and Urey put a primordial atmosphere in a chamber and sent sparks through it. amino acids were generated. Proteins are made from RNA, but you don't need much protein for the most primitive creatures.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

... scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments.​

Much of what they produced was contamination. It's not true that well over 20 different amino acids were produced. Miller-Urey eventually produced trace amounts of amino acids by adjusting for what they perceived to be the early atmosphere. However, they were well short of the essential amino acids needed to produce a protein molecule. Besides, it was impossible to do this because of chilarity. This is the start of chemical evolution, so ToE leads to the study of origins of life.

When Miller-Urey performed their original experiments in the early 1950's, they lacked the equipment to accurately sequence the molecules their experiment produced. Subsequent analysis on sealed samples from their experiments and others replicating their expermiment have identified 30 unique amino acids, 25% of which are proteinogenic.

Yeah I read that. But not onecreproduced. He made some inert molecules but didn’t come close to even hint at life.
I’m not taking potshots at his experiment. I’m just saying it didn’t get close to life.
Follow it out...if it were possible then somewhere sparks would still be creating new life. But it isn’t happening.

 

[fncceo]

This is not creation. One needs a cell in order to create the RNA. One needs a cell to create an amino acid or protein. Humans can only create up to the molecular level. Not the atomic level. Only God can do that.

Miller and Urey put a primordial atmosphere in a chamber and sent sparks through it. amino acids were generated. Proteins are made from RNA, but you don't need much protein for the most primitive creatures.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

... scientists examining sealed vials preserved from the original experiments were able to show that there were actually well over 20 different amino acids produced in Miller's original experiments.​

Much of what they produced was contamination. It's not true that well over 20 different amino acids were produced. Miller-Urey eventually produced trace amounts of amino acids by adjusting for what they perceived to be the early atmosphere. However, they were well short of the essential amino acids needed to produce a protein molecule. Besides, it was impossible to do this because of chilarity. This is the start of chemical evolution, so ToE leads to the study of origins of life.

When Miller-Urey performed their original experiments in the early 1950's, they lacked the equipment to accurately sequence the molecules their experiment produced. Subsequent analysis on sealed samples from their experiments and others replicating their expermiment have identified 30 unique amino acids, 25% of which are proteinogenic.

Yeah I read that. But not onecreproduced. He made some inert molecules but didn’t come close to even hint at life.
I’m not taking potshots at his experiment. I’m just saying it didn’t get close to life.
Follow it out...if it were possible then somewhere sparks would still be creating new life. But it isn’t happening.

The standard creationism argument on the origin of life is that organic molecules cannot spontaneously originate from inorganic compounds. That argument is demonstrably false.

Remember that Miller-Urey is a very tiny recreation of what was happening all over the early earth for more than a billion years. It would be next to impossible for a trilobite to crawl out of a M-U flask.