VastLWC Presents: Let's have a productive discussion: Afghanistan

[Annie]

They're an ally as is Saudi Arabia. Not who I'd pick on my side for a fight, but letting us use them for the fights that must be fought now. You wouldn't make it in the State Department, I wouldn't want to. Dirty stuff.

Like what "fights"?

Saudi Arabia has helped us militarily in the region, and allowed us to have bases on their territory.

What has Pakistan done for us in return for the Billions of dollars we have given them?

If at this point in time, regarding Afghanistan, the Taliban, and al qaeda, you don't know, I can't educate you.

 

[Vast LWC]

Good points.
All al Qaeda would have to do is make for the hills until the sweep was over, wait for the Army to depart the scene and they're back in business.

If you make the country they operate out of culpable for their crimes, then that country will not give them safe haven. That was the orginal point of the War on Terror.

Pakistan is quite fine with letting AlQaeda and the Taliban thrive in their country, because they know we're not going to take action against them.

It's largely a no win situation. The best idea I can come up with (and I'm not wedded to it) is to pursue a quasi guerrila campaign against al Qaeda and the Taliban, keeping them off balance.
I know trying to build stability isn't going to happen. The British tried it in the 19th century and had their asses handed to them. The Russians in the 20th century and the same thing happened. We're 3k miles away and we sure aren't going to do it.

Guerrilla warfare? That's a thought. Would we use our own troops or hire a third party mercenary force in order to evade culpability?

 

[Vast LWC]

They're an ally as is Saudi Arabia. Not who I'd pick on my side for a fight, but letting us use them for the fights that must be fought now. You wouldn't make it in the State Department, I wouldn't want to. Dirty stuff.

Like what "fights"?

Saudi Arabia has helped us militarily in the region, and allowed us to have bases on their territory.

What has Pakistan done for us in return for the Billions of dollars we have given them?

If at this point in time, regarding Afghanistan, the Taliban, and al qaeda, you don't know, I can't educate you.

A pure evasion. Give me an example of a major victory Pakistan has scored for us in the war on Terror that counterbalances all the harm they have caused.

 

[Vast LWC]

And, Annie, do you even have a suggestion on what might be done? Or do your comments simply consist of criticism of other people's strategies?

 

[Annie]

Like what "fights"?

Saudi Arabia has helped us militarily in the region, and allowed us to have bases on their territory.

What has Pakistan done for us in return for the Billions of dollars we have given them?

If at this point in time, regarding Afghanistan, the Taliban, and al qaeda, you don't know, I can't educate you.

A pure evasion. Give me an example of a major victory Pakistan has scored for us in the war on Terror that counterbalances all the harm they have caused.

Currently it's more than troubling. Pervez Musharraf may well have fit the bill of 'our bastard', but he's gone now. How's that working out? At the same time, under Obama, they've squawked, but have continued to allow the drone attacks to be carried out.

 

[Vast LWC]

Currently it's more than troubling. Pervez Musharraf may well have fit the bill of 'our bastard', but he's gone now. How's that working out? At the same time, under Obama, they've squawked, but have continued to allow the drone attacks to be carried out.

So basically they're our "ally" because they're magnanimously allowing us to make unmanned strikes, only, on international criminals that they are harboring? International criminals that have attacked American soil?

 

[Vast LWC]

And meanwhile they're helping our enemies make Nukes, and their intelligence forces are helping the Taliban attack us in Afghanistan.

 

[Annie]

And meanwhile they're helping our enemies make Nukes, and their intelligence forces are helping the Taliban attack us in Afghanistan.

Actually, I'd focus more on NK just saying.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

VAST i've typed up 3 responses and deleted them all.

My honest view actually scares me so i'm going with bring the troops home, it sounds way less evil than my other 3 posts.


Something along the lines of follow the taliban/al-quaeda outside of afghanistan and kill them, use MOAB bombs if we suspect them hiding in a villiage.

War is war and to fight it right you have to kill a lot of innocent people, which just sounds too evil.

 

[Vast LWC]

VAST i've typed up 3 responses and deleted them all.

My honest view actually scares me so i'm going with bring the troops home, it sounds way less evil than my other 3 posts.


Something along the lines of follow the taliban/al-quaeda outside of afghanistan and kill them, use MOAB bombs if we suspect them hiding in a villiage.

War is war and to fight it right you have to kill a lot of innocent people, which just sounds too evil.

I'm with you. I have no qualms about getting bat-shit-crazy when it comes to taking out Al Qaeda.

I was there for 9/11. I worked in lower Manhattan. I had a friends die in the South Tower, and my girlfriend at the time worked across the street.

 

[Vast LWC]

And honestly, I think that if we could get the WoT focused on Al Qaeda again, and stopped with all this bullshit, I think I'm going to see if I can Re-up.

 

[The Rabbi]

Good points.
All al Qaeda would have to do is make for the hills until the sweep was over, wait for the Army to depart the scene and they're back in business.

If you make the country they operate out of culpable for their crimes, then that country will not give them safe haven. That was the orginal point of the War on Terror.

Pakistan is quite fine with letting AlQaeda and the Taliban thrive in their country, because they know we're not going to take action against them.

It's largely a no win situation. The best idea I can come up with (and I'm not wedded to it) is to pursue a quasi guerrila campaign against al Qaeda and the Taliban, keeping them off balance.
I know trying to build stability isn't going to happen. The British tried it in the 19th century and had their asses handed to them. The Russians in the 20th century and the same thing happened. We're 3k miles away and we sure aren't going to do it.

Guerrilla warfare? That's a thought. Would we use our own troops or hire a third party mercenary force in order to evade culpability?

What country? The Northwest Territory in Pakistan is about as unmanageable a place as exists. That's why OBL has been able to hide out there for years.
You paint "Pakistan" like the whole country agrees. There are many different factions there. Musharraf helped funnel funds to the Northern Alliance. The ISS otoh generally has favored the Taliban.

 

[Vast LWC]

What country? The Northwest Territory in Pakistan is about as unmanageable a place as exists. That's why OBL has been able to hide out there for years.
You paint "Pakistan" like the whole country agrees. There are many different factions there. Musharraf helped funnel funds to the Northern Alliance. The ISS otoh generally has favored the Taliban.

So the leader of Pakistan pays lip-service to our supposed alliance, takes our money, sending a bit of it to our actual allies, and then the rest of the country harbors, trains, and funds our enemies?

Doesn't sound like an "ally" to me.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

What country? The Northwest Territory in Pakistan is about as unmanageable a place as exists. That's why OBL has been able to hide out there for years.
You paint "Pakistan" like the whole country agrees. There are many different factions there. Musharraf helped funnel funds to the Northern Alliance. The ISS otoh generally has favored the Taliban.

So the leader of Pakistan pays lip-service to our supposed alliance, takes our money, sending a bit of it to our actual allies, and then the rest of the country harbors, trains, and funds our enemies?

Doesn't sound like an "ally" to me.

The behavior of pakastan, many times, has left me with that same feeling Vast.

It could be that I dont understand their political and cultural situation in Pakistan, but it appears as if they are harboring taliban and al-quaeda by not letting us chase them over the border. (I know sometimes we have done it anyway)

 

[The Rabbi]

What country? The Northwest Territory in Pakistan is about as unmanageable a place as exists. That's why OBL has been able to hide out there for years.
You paint "Pakistan" like the whole country agrees. There are many different factions there. Musharraf helped funnel funds to the Northern Alliance. The ISS otoh generally has favored the Taliban.

So the leader of Pakistan pays lip-service to our supposed alliance, takes our money, sending a bit of it to our actual allies, and then the rest of the country harbors, trains, and funds our enemies?

Doesn't sound like an "ally" to me.

You got a better choice?

 

[Vast LWC]

You got a better choice?

We have plenty of allies in the region.

We certainly don't need one that we have to keep paying billions of dollars to to keep their support, and who stabs us in the back at every turn.

 

[The Rabbi]

Like Kazakhstan?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

You got a better choice?

We have plenty of allies in the region.

We certainly don't need one that we have to keep paying billions of dollars to to keep their support, and who stabs us in the back at every turn.

Like isreael and Iraq? I dont know who else(referring to the governments not the people) even remotely likes us over there.

 

[Polk]

So those are the only two choices?

A full Marshall plan, or a full pullout?

Perhaps there are some other strategies that might work?

I didn't suggest "full Marshall plan". I suggest giving McChrystal what he wants - more troops, more resources.

The question is if we do that, what's the end game?

 

[Vast LWC]

Like isreael and Iraq? I dont know who else(referring to the governments not the people) even remotely likes us over there.

Like Russia, India, Egypt, the entire Saudi Arabian peninsula, Turkey, Isreal and supposedly Iraq.

India right next to Pakistan. Russia's not far to the north. The Saudi Arabian Peninsula and Turkey are close by.