USA vs. NK

[evancity2]

How the hell do you qoute something on this board... Okay, Zhukov, when you said the Russins had already won the war before june 6th (d-day), I'm gonna have to say no. i will fall in to your "combined effort" thing, but not that. I will not accept the fact the the Russians would have won it without us. Agian (I know I have said this already) it was the German inability to wage war on two fronts that made the war end when it did. AND I must say that we did face more than una fortha of the German army in Battle Of The Bulge, when they all scurried over to us. Also, I will NOT STOP TYPING IN CAPS LOCKS. Also Zhukof, don't pretend you didn't see my written thing about the SCUICIDAL CHARGES. So please, actually read this and think about the pionts I have made.

 

[evancity2]

And Sonny, Stalin was worse than Hitler. He killed something like 20million people, where Hitler only KKKilled 4million. Nice to see you back, dude. Thought you'd gone forever.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by evancity2
How the hell do you qoute something on this board...

There is a quote button at the lower right hand corner, just click on that.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by evancity2
Okay, Zhukov, when you said the Russins had already won the war before june 6th (d-day), I'm gonna have to say no.

5 July 1943 (a full year before Normandy)

The Battle of Kursk, the last major offensive of the German army, after which, they were on the defensive until the end of the war. The strength of the Red Army and Soviet industrial might continued to grow as the power of the German army was being irreversibly eroded. This was the turning point.

By August of '44 the Russians were in Germany.

I will not accept the fact the the Russians would have won it without us.

It is debatable to what degree our strategic bombing of German cities helped the Soviet war effort. What is known for sure is that German industrial capacity continued to increase throughout the war.

Our Lend-Lease efforts did not amount to much until the end of the war.

Agian (I know I have said this already) it was the German inability to wage war on two fronts that made the war end when it did.

What I'm saying is the second front to which you refer was miniscule compared to what was transpiring in the East.

I must say that we did face more than una fortha of the German army in Battle Of The Bulge, when they all scurried over to us.

Battle of the Bulge = 29 German Divisions

German Army on Eastern Front at that time = 165 German Divisions
+24 in Balkans
+22 in Finland/Norway

Also Zhukof, don't pretend you didn't see my written thing about the SCUICIDAL CHARGES. So please, actually read this and think about the pionts I have made.

I commented on that. Perhaps you should read mine.

 

[supermarine]

Originally posted by evancity2
And Sonny, Stalin was worse than Hitler. He killed something like 20million people, where Hitler only KKKilled 4million. Nice to see you back, dude. Thought you'd gone forever.

I think taht hitler was worse than stalin because #1 Hitler killed his people more visiously than stalin. STalin just shot them most of hte time. HItler skinned, boiled, shot, gassed, raped, etc. Also stalin had a bigger country to control, and thus more people to kill, and Stalin was in power much longer than hitler. IF hitler was in the same situation as stalin, he would have probably killed around 40milion. ANYWAY THEY WERE BOTH ASS****.

 

[supermarine]

I do think that the russians might have lost if it wasnt for us too, we were on the african and italian front, and we were giving to the russians. But i think that the russians had a better chance than us alone against germany.

 

[evancity2]

How can you say a guy who killed 4 million people is worse than a guy whom killed 20 million. I'm sorry, I just think Stalin was not afraid to go farther for his regime. Also, Zuckov, where did you get those facts. I seems hard for me to believe you can just remember them in your head. Give me a link or some facts, or I will be forced to regard you evidence as "bs".

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by evancity2
Also, Zuckov, where did you get those facts. I seems hard for me to believe you can just remember them in your head. Give me a link or some facts, or I will be forced to regard you evidence as "bs".

BS, eh? Hehe. Well, I already gave you the facts, but here are my "links."

Try:

"Russia at War: 1941-1945", by Alexander Werth

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany", by William L. Schirer

"Zhukov", by Otto Preston Chaney

and

"A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II", by Gerhard L. Weinberg

and then go get a minor in Russian/Soviet history and consult your notes.

 

[Zhukov]

And Stalin was worse than Hitler, but only because Hitler lost. Had he won....

 

[evancity2]

You got a minor?

 

[_dmp_]

move to the "WW2" forum, and copied to the "MY Homeland had more ppl killed than YOUR homeland" forum.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by evancity2
You got a minor?

Yes, and I speak russian.

 

[William Joyce]

It would be interesting to see the chinks try that human wave BS they did during the Korean war against the modern weapons we have today. A fuel air bomb, mini-guns, Claymores, and a few of our other toys would certainly make them wish they'd stayed home and been happy with their bowl of fish-heads and rice!!!!

I laughed my ass off at this.

Asians are too frickin' docile to mess with us, plus, they don't speak our language, so they couldn't even make slaves out of us. "Chin yong yee yaaahhh!" they'd bark. "Dude, what?" we'd say back. Wouldn't work. They all look alike, and different from us, so wasting a ton of them at once wouldn't jerk tears.

But, the main reason we won't take action against North Korea is because it's not in the Jews' interest. They're the one calling our military shots these days. We only went after Asians when WASPs were calling the shots: Roosevelt, Vietnam, etc.

Then again, maybe Jorge Bush will be told of a link between pajama boy and 9/11...

 

[kcmcdonald]

first to issue the NK thing.
I think that if war was to start between us and NK the only country to suffer worse than NK would be SK, that is the only real human cost of the war i can think of. If war was going to happen you'ld better believe that we would carpet bomb the shit out of that country. If they had any missle system we'ld know were it was before we attacked. WW3 would only happen if the chinies got involved. The chances of that country trying to pick a fight with us would be retarded, we'ld slaughter them. To answer what we would do about the human wave, i have three letters to answer that S.A.W. Have some of that and call me when they pick up the pieces of you're body.

The weigh in on WW2 and Russia.

If you are going to talk about this subject you have to go back to 1941, when the Italians went into Africa and got there buts kicked by the british. If the Italians hadn't of pulled Germany in to Africa Germany would have been able to start opperation Barbarossa two mounths earlier, With an additional 60 days the Germans would have had no problem taking Moscow before winter. If Moscow would have fallen Russia would have fallen. Also if Hitler wasn't so obbsed with "STALIN-grad" and had given the tanks to army group A in the north he would have been able to advance father in the north and chocked stalingrad into surender. Also if hitler would have consentrated to the south into the Caucususes and taken the oil form the Russians thier tanks would have run out of fuel. No tanks, no Russia. If left to the German Generals the war in the east would have been over in the fall of 1941 and england would have been conquered the spring of 41. It was the fact that the Germans refussed to acknowledge the English Radar and kept sending planes to get shot down. If left to it's own devicses the US would not have been able to force the Geramans from France, espessially if we had to face the entire German Army in France. It's wierd that Hitler had the Army and the tech to conquer the world but it in the end it was Hitler, not the US not the USSR that caused the end of the war in Europe.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by kcmcdonald
It's wierd that Hitler had the Army and the tech to conquer the world but it in the end was Hitler, not the US not the USSR that caused the end of the war in Europe.

Hitler was certainly a political genius, and was quite capable of swaying the masses but in the end Hitler was a fool.

I could write a book about how Hitler let the world slip through his hands :

-> Allowing the British to escape at Dunkirk
-> Switching Luftwaffe objectives from destroying the RAF to bombing London
-> Invading Russia too late in the year
-> Invading Russia with the England conflict unresolved
-> Invading Russia with no priority
-> Not utilizing widespread partisan hatred for the Soviets in occupied USSR
-> Stalingrad
-> Starting WW2 too early, before jet tech., rocket tech., atomic tech. was ready for implementation (maybe 5 years)
-> Starting WW2 too early, before the Hitler youth were fully of age (again 5 short years)
-> Wasting resources/time on battleships and other surface ships


et cetera

 

[kcmcdonald]

It is ammazing isn't it that all through the history of the world that it was leaders, not armies otr generals that caused the decline of thier great empires.

ie romans, greeks, french, english,german,japan(they attacked america, I know this was a general decision, but the leadership forced this action) and mabey even this fate may befall us americans. I mean in the thread of world history Amercia reminds me a lot of Rome. We have the power, the will, and the money to ensure homodgeny and peace. It is yet to be seen if we will be the forst country to not become engulfed in our own power and become to stretched to maintian said power.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by kcmcdonald
It is ammazing isn't it that all through the history of the world that it was leaders, not armies otr generals that caused the decline of thier great empires.

ie romans, greeks, french, english,german,japan(they attacked america, I know this was a general decision, but the leadership forced this action) and mabey even this fate may befall us americans. I mean in the thread of world history Amercia reminds me a lot of Rome. We have the power, the will, and the money to ensure homodgeny and peace. It is yet to be seen if we will be the forst country to not become engulfed in our own power and become to stretched to maintian said power.

All the more reason to keep Kerry out of office.

 

[kcmcdonald]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
All the more reason to keep Kerry out of office.

exactly

 

[musicman]

Originally posted by Zhukov
BS, eh? Hehe. Well, I already gave you the facts, but here are my "links."
"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany", by William L. Schirer

Hello, Zhukov. I'm glad to run into another fan of Schirer's wonderful book. I read it years ago, and it made a lasting impression on me.

I'd like to make a few observations based on the book (as nearly as I can remember it) and get your thoughts.

1. Operation Barbarossa was originally scheduled to go off in the early spring of 1941. This critical timing was upset by Hitler's well known insane temper.

As Hitler moved to subjugate the Balkans, tiny Yugoslavia had the nerve to put up a resistance. Hitler was furious. Against the advice and pleading of his generals, he set out to punish and crush the upstarts. This he most certainly did, but it took six weeks. In order to satisfy his outraged pride, he postponed the invasion of the Soviet Union until June 22.

After the war, the surviving generals who were involved were asked how much longer the Germans would have needed to take Russia before the onset of it's murderous winter. The unanimous answer was, "Six weeks".

2. A great part of the success of Dunkirk and the survival of Great Britian was the fact that HItler himself was a slavish anglophile. It was not his plan to crush and subjugate England as he had other countries. These other countries were, after all, peopled by-in his mind-"subhumans". His dream was to unite with Britian (once Churchill had been ousted, and reason once again prevailed in that country) and create white domination of the planet.

Here is a (probably not perfect, as it is from memory) quote from Hitler's general staff:

"[Hitler] then astonished us by professing a great admiration for the British. He said that they had achieved their empire by means that were sometimes harsh, but added with a shrug 'Where there is planing there are shavings flying.' "

A member of Parliament, sizing up England's position in postwar Europe, observed, "Hilter only wished to crash the Carlton Club. Stalin wished to smash it".

 

[Zhukov]

With respect to the timing for Operation Barbarossa, at first Hitler had desired a fall of '40 campaign in another example of his gross inadequacies as a military strategist. The need to transfer such a large amount of men and materiel from the west to the east made such an early attempt impossible.

Hitler was concerned about shoring up the Balkans against a possible English incursion that would disrupt his plans for the invasion of the USSR. He got a late start on that as well (the end of May as opposed to the beginning of May) and, as you said, it took a bit longer than expected due to sturdy resistance.

Despite the delay the Germans managed to make it to within 40 miles (perhaps 30) of Red Square, being able to see the spires of the Kremlin from their position. Then winter set in and the Russian resistance solidified.


With respect to England, it is true Hitler was an admirer of the English and impressed with their Empire. Hitler would have preferred to avoid any confrontation with the English at all, and referred to the whole conflict as the "wrong war." With such a half-assed attitude about the affair it's no surprise he abandoned his plans for the invasion and failed to subjugate the English before he turned his attention to the Soviets.

At the time he felt if he quickly crushed the Soviets (and he was sure he could) the English would be forced to face reality and acquiesce to the wishes of the Germans. The English would have been incapable of enduring the full force of an unopposed German Reich in control of the whole continent of Europe.

Once all that had happened, the Japanese would have had a free hand in Asia and Hitler felt he had 30-40 years before the US would become a threat to him.