US space program

[wihosa]

With yesterday's launch of the space shuttle we are one mission closer to the scheduled retirement of the shuttle. The plans for post shuttle space missions is now being reviewed and that is a good thing. The current plan for future missions looks like a step backward opting for a vehicle very like the Apollo capsule in both configuration and function.

Here's my common sense suggestion for a space program to move us forward.

First we must look critically at the space shuttle. It is a vehicle which has three functions, none of which it does well (or at least as well as could be done). First it is the vehicle for transporting personnel into space. If that were it's only function it could be about one tenth the size it is. The reason for it's size is it's second funtion, that of moving cargo into space. It's third function is being a workstation in space.

I propose a three part space program, effectivly seperating the three funtions.

First a 'space plane' for moving people into space. It would be able to carry a crew of six or seven yet small enough to be launched from the wing of a large aircraft at high altitude and fly directly into space. It would capitalize on the technologies for reusable space craft developed by the shuttle program.

Second, the use of expendable rockets to lift cargo into space. This is off the shelf technology.

Third, a permanently orbiting 'space crane' taking the place of the robotic arm on the shuttle. This vehicle would have the ability to 'fly' to other orbits to capture and repair sattelites, but would be stationed near the space station providing housing for the crew.

This three part system would reduce cost as people could be easily and efficiently move to and from space.Cargo could be sent anytime regardless of the comings and goings of people, using proven and cost effective expendable rockets without the danger to people inherant with every shuttle flight.

The new 'space crane' would provide a valuable tool for repairs and service, always on call. This would also give us the ability to assemble future moon mission vehicles in space which could 'fly' to the moon and back to the space station without the need for the expensive ability to transit through atmosphere.

No, I'm not an engineer, just someone who makes my living by applying common sense, I'm a general building contractor.

 

[American Horse]

First a 'space plane' for moving people into space. It would be able to carry a crew of six or seven yet small enough to be launched from the wing of a large aircraft at high altitude and fly directly into space. It would capitalize on the technologies for reusable space craft developed by the shuttle program.

I accept that your other two proposals could work, because they effectively already have. However are you certain that a space plane can reach orbital velocity as you proposed? It really doesn't matter very much the elevation from which it is launched nor the elevation which it reaches unless orbital velocity can be obtained.

.

 

[BaltimoreBob]

2010 (1984)
aka "2010: Odyssey Two" - USA (original script title)
aka "2010: The Year We Make Contact" - USA (promotional title)

That's next year.
What happened ?
We had a space colony on the moon in that movie.

I guess they need to retitle that movie 2110.
At least another 100 years away.

And Dave is still with us.
Actor Keir Dullea - Age 73
Born: 30 May 1936, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

Baltimore Bob

 

[American Horse]

2010 (1984)
aka "2010: Odyssey Two" - USA (original script title)
aka "2010: The Year We Make Contact" - USA (promotional title)

That's next year.
What happened ?
We had a space colony on the moon in that movie.

I guess they need to retitle that movie 2110.
At least another 100 years away.

And Dave is still with us.
Actor Keir Dullea - Age 73
Born: 30 May 1936, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

Baltimore Bob

Almost none of the future projections pan out, neither in time frame nor even in real applications. The complicating factor, to me, seems to be economics and markets. When 2001 Space Odyssy was written the driving force for the space program was military competition, which is an excellent spur for innovation and progress, but it flagged when the competitive goal was reached, and we didn't quite know what to do with it after that except maintain what had already been accomplished.

Arthur C. Clarke has authored lots of predictions about the future, some being realized early some not at all. HERE'S a LINK to some comments of his on his own predictions and some more predictions leading up to the year 2100, when, in his words, "History begins..." - He wrote this list of predictions in 1999.

I think things would come about much sooner if there was an incentive that would maximize the broadest possible competition for an achievement. Newt Gingrich has suggested several such possibilities for those and NASA has a program for COMPETETIVE PRIZES..

My belief is that competition for a prize is the best incentive for achieving great goals when there is no ongoing competition in the marketplace. We are led to believe that the national governments of Europe pushed for the settlement of the New World, but what really got the job done was the push for "winning a prize" by private enterprise by investors and ordinary people willing to risk all and change their lives forever to find something different from the status quo.

Here's a short list of NASA Technology Spinoffs, practical improvements in or new technologies that found their way into our daily lives unbidden by any farsighted politician or scientist.

 

[Navy1960]

I might suggest you look at two things then, basically the one main reason that NASA went with the ARES project was simple. "FUNDING". There are many concept vehicles that were follow-ons to the the Shuttle, including the Shuttle-C which was an unmanned version of the Shuttle to be used as a heavy lift vehicle. Another was the OSB Orbital Space Plane, which was another concept vehicle prior to the advent of the CSV which was the ulitmate choice. The CSV as you know is much like an Apollo based Capsule concept that , unlike the Shuttle has no lifting capability other than a crew. This is to be accomplished by the as yet to be launched ARES V rocket. So yes while the concept is much like the Apollo concept, you can be assured that it was done so because of Budget issues at NASA. NASA IMO from much to long spent time in the Shuttle window without a solid follow-on project and lack of vision. This can be directly attributed to NASA management becomming complacent and not setting goals other than ISP construction. Which again IMO is a complete money hole and the money could have been spent on longer term visions such as returns to the Moon or Mars projects or for that matter sat. launches

 

[Midnight Marauder]

2010 (1984)
aka "2010: Odyssey Two" - USA (original script title)
aka "2010: The Year We Make Contact" - USA (promotional title)

That's next year.
What happened ?
We had a space colony on the moon in that movie.

I guess they need to retitle that movie 2110.
At least another 100 years away.

And Dave is still with us.
Actor Keir Dullea - Age 73
Born: 30 May 1936, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

Baltimore Bob

In "2001, a Space Odyssey" 1968 we had the moon colony, 16 years before "2010" came out.

You really never have any facts straight, do you? And it's stunning, since you have right there in front of you, a machine that can look up all facts of the known world. So, what we have with you is, willful ignorance. Seems odd that if you are old enough to have served in Vietnam, you're referencing a 1984 movie which was a sequel to the original in 1968. I think now, you're probably just some dumbass young kid who needs to give his mom her computer back.

And for whatever reason, too stupid to understand the difference between science fiction, which the movies are, and actual science, which is what space exploration is.

 

[BaltimoreBob]

To help the Space Program

For people getting an Income Tax Refund ?

How many Dollars would you like to contribute
to the USA Space Program from your Refund:
I'd give $10 per year.

$10 from 150,000,000 people is $1,500,000,000.
$1.5 Trillion dollars - would that Help ?

The Cancer cure might be in Space ?

Baltimore Bob

 

[Harry Dresden]

2010 (1984)
aka "2010: Odyssey Two" - USA (original script title)
aka "2010: The Year We Make Contact" - USA (promotional title)

That's next year.
What happened ?
We had a space colony on the moon in that movie.

I guess they need to retitle that movie 2110.
At least another 100 years away.

And Dave is still with us.
Actor Keir Dullea - Age 73
Born: 30 May 1936, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.

Baltimore Bob

In "2001, a Space Odyssey" 1968 we had the moon colony, 16 years before "2010" came out.

You really never have any facts straight, do you? And it's stunning, since you have right there in front of you, a machine that can look up all facts of the known world. So, what we have with you is, willful ignorance. Seems odd that if you are old enough to have served in Vietnam, you're referencing a 1984 movie which was a sequel to the original in 1968. I think now, you're probably just some dumbass young kid who needs to give his mom her computer back.

And for whatever reason, too stupid to understand the difference between science fiction, which the movies are, and actual science, which is what space exploration is.

i think i agree with ya MM....he says he was "Drafted" during Nam....into the Navy....BULLSHIT....the last time the Navy drafted someone was for a short time in WW2....NOT during Vietnam.....me thinx Bob is a fraud....and a Coward

 

[Citizen]

If I am not mistaken a reusable space vehicle already been developed and successfully tested.

 

[KittenKoder]

If I am not mistaken a reusable space vehicle already been developed and successfully tested.

The space station.

 

[Citizen]

If I am not mistaken a reusable space vehicle already been developed and successfully tested.

The space station.

I was thinking about SpaceShipOne, which did reach the edge of space, and did it without being a government program.

Why not expand on that concept, in lieu of going back to disposable rockets?

 

[American Horse]

If I am not mistaken a reusable space vehicle already been developed and successfully tested.

The space station.

I was thinking about SpaceShipOne, which did reach the edge of space, and did it without being a government program.

Why not expand on that concept, in lieu of going back to disposable rockets?

I agree that it is a valuable entry by private enterprise into the space industry,
but, if I am not mistaken, that was sub-orbital, little more than a high flying airplane.

These are but stepping stones into orbital flight, at much low velocities, and much less challenging to do. I say it is valuable, because only private enterprise will ever add the necessary creativity to the effort to explore space, and when we do send people to Mars (if we do) private enterprise will play a strong role; many of the crew will come from the civilian sphere, just like the first so called Pilgrims of Plymouth, Massachusetts.

Like a journey to Mars will be, that was a dangerous no return journey to a strange “new world” with unknown dangers, and no support system once they arrived, but it was an investment for gain, both material and spiritual.

The long downward slide the space program has suffered is a result of the fact that it has been solely done by government. The award of prizes for innovations to meet challenges like for your SpaceShipOne, is a way of driving private investment by incremental steps. But NASA has even done a lot less of that than they could have.

 

[BaltimoreBob]

Baltimore Bob was not drafted into the US Navy
I enlisted in the US Navy to escape going to Vietnam.
I was supposed to be in the Computer Systems field
but I failed Color Vision tests.
I should have been given a Medical Discharge.

The Navy forfced me to do things with 20 +200 vision
effectively blind without glasses.
There is enogh men in this Country with good vision
that don't wear glasses that can serve this country.
Why treat people like me like crappy.
I really should be able to sue this country.
On discrimination charges.

Baltimore Bob

 

[KittenKoder]

Damn I've gotten bored lately, even lol'd a science thread.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>
Damn I've gotten bored lately, even lol'd a science thread.

I gotta say, I wondered what you were doing here; then I wondered what you were going to stir up....

 

[KittenKoder]

<SNIP>
Damn I've gotten bored lately, even lol'd a science thread.

I gotta say, I wondered what you were doing here; then I wondered what you were going to stir up....

Nothing to stir up ... frell ... problem is we all know more could be done for space exploration, however no one can afford to do anything more with it that wants to. NASA hasn't been able to get good funding for years and even with what little funding they get they wind up blowing it.

 

[American Horse]

<SNIP>
Damn I've gotten bored lately, even lol'd a science thread.

I gotta say, I wondered what you were doing here; then I wondered what you were going to stir up....

Nothing to stir up ... frell ... problem is we all know more could be done for space exploration, however no one can afford to do anything more with it that wants to. NASA hasn't been able to get good funding for years and even with what little funding they get they wind up blowing it.

We've never been willing to spend more than what a family would spend on a good night out on the town once a year; that's about the proportion of it in our Federal budget. I think we are at the tipping point of go/no-go. The Russians set an example charging 20-million for a space ride into orbit to help pay for other "pay-loads". I have long thought that we wouldn't get to Mars before 2050, but now I believe that if we wait that long that it will never happen at all.

In 1903 anyone taking a look at the first airplanes lifting off at Kitty Hawk could never have imagined the aviation age and the size of aircraft we have now, but which still haven't changed much in the last 40 years. I remember the Boeing 727 being tested near the USMC boot camp at San Diego in 1960, which was very impressive since it was just over the fence. But actually the much larger 707, the presidents Air Force-1 was first put into production in 1958, so it's more than 50 years old now.

On Sept 11, 2001 we found out how difficult it was to get all the commercial aircraft in American skies on the ground at one and the same time; there were about a million people in the air at that moment. What made all that possible has been private enterprise and the expansion of commercial aviation. We need a similar expansion of commercial space ventures. As I said above, IMHO the best way to do that is by awarding more prizes for private building and testing of new concepts to "gitter-dun"

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Baltimore Bob was not drafted into the US Navy
I enlisted in the US Navy to escape going to Vietnam.

... The story keeps changing...

 

[American Horse]

To help the Space Program

For people getting an Income Tax Refund ?

How many Dollars would you like to contribute
to the USA Space Program from your Refund:
I'd give $10 per year.

$10 from 150,000,000 people is $1,500,000,000.
$1.5 Trillion dollars - would that Help ?

The Cancer cure might be in Space ?

Baltimore Bob

You set up a good proposition to consider. Not everyone would agree; not surprisingly there are some who believe any money spent on space exploration takes away from more immediate needs/benefits here on Earth in our social contract - short sighted indeed. It is not a zero-sum-game.

I already donate $25 per year to the plantetary society for the advancement of space travel, and I would love to see more of my tax money go for that. I have many times thought that better education on the benefits of space exploration might cause more talent be attracted into engineering which is the direct application of the physical sciences to the practical/physical world. I read recently (and no doubt there are conflicting figures on this) that the US produces about 60,000 undergraduate engineers annually. China with a population 4.43 times larger than the US might be expected to produce 266,000 per year but instead is producing two and a quarter times that: 600,000.

China is developing it's own plan for a colony on the Moon, and also on Mars. They will do it, and without all the fear of the necessary loss of life, a consideration that has become the prime consideration of the US through its noble politicians. Their primary concern will be the overall success of the mission. To put that in perspective consider the number of ships transporting settlers to the New World which were lost and never heard from again, or attempted settlements that disappeared.

None of that slowed the flow of development to America, as a matter of fact it was probably more viewed as lessons learned making future efforts more competitive. And like space settlement, the settlement of the New World was seen as a competitive venture. Space has to be seen in the same light. It was with the race to space between the US and the Soviet Union that the most was accomplished, and never has it advanced so quickly since.

 

[Navy1960]

Constellation is a human spaceflight program within NASA, the space agency of the United States. The stated goals of the program are gaining significant experience in operating away from Earth's environment, developing technologies needed for opening the space frontier and conducting fundamental science.[1] Constellation was developed through the Exploration Systems Architecture Study, which determined how NASA would pursue the goals laid out in the Vision for Space Exploration and the NASA Authorization Act of 2005.

As part of the Constellation program, NASA plans to develop spacecraft and booster vehicles to replace the Space Shuttle and send astronauts to the Moon and possibly to Mars as well. Currently, NASA is in the process of designing two boosters, the Ares I and Ares V. Ares I will have the sole function of launching mission crews into orbit. Ares V will be designed to launch other hardware for use on missions and will have a heavier lift capacity than the Ares I booster. In addition to these two boosters, NASA is designing a set of other spacecraft for use during Constellation. These will include the Orion crew capsule, the Earth Departure Stage and the Altair lunar lander
Constellation program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfurling in majestic patriotic colors, a successful cluster test of the Ares I rocket's three, 1-ton main parachutes was conducted May 20 by NASA and industry engineers at the U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground located near Yuma, Ariz. The main parachute is designed to slow the rapid descent of the spent first-stage motor and permit its recovery for use on future flights. The Ares I, the first launch vehicle being designed for NASA's Constellation Program, will launch explorers to the International Space Station, the moon and beyond in coming decades.
NASA - Constellation Main

In case anyone's interested in what the real follow-on to the Space Shuttle actually is. Some are correct this system or rocket stack is based on the Apollo concept with many technology improvements. However, given NASA's Budget concerns this is the BEST solution for the long term goals that NASA as set for itself. Which I for one find a refreshing change, from the same stale management concept that has led NASA for the last 25 years.