US fighters ‘captured’ by Russian forces in Ukraine

[Open Bolt]

Different subject. You were arguing that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was legitimate and the whole world was wrong about what happened in Kosovo except you, and I simple pointed out that even Serbia disagrees with you.

Not quite. I do not accept that you actually speak for the world.

It just doesn't matter what the world thinks. Appeals to the crowd are logical fallacies.

Go ahead and claim that the entire galaxy agrees with you. It will still be a logical fallacy.

That you can only support your position with logical fallacies should tell you something about the reliability of your position.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Not quite. I do not accept that you actually speak for the world.

It just doesn't matter what the world thinks. Appeals to the crowd are logical fallacies.

Go ahead and claim that the entire galaxy agrees with you. It will still be a logical fallacy.

That you can only support your position with logical fallacies should tell you something about the reliability of your position.

As I have pointed out to you, it's not just me, it's the UN, it's the ICC, it's the world press. Even Serbia doesn't buy Putin's lies about the invasion.

 

[Open Bolt]

As I have pointed out to you, it's not just me, it's the UN, it's the ICC, it's the world press. Even Serbia doesn't buy Putin's lies about the invasion.

More appeal to the crowd fallacies.

Really, the fact that all you have to defend your position are logical fallacies should tell you something.

 

[toomuchtime_]

More appeal to the crowd fallacies.

Really, the fact that all you have to defend your position are logical fallacies should tell you something.

If you had any idea what a logical fallacy is, you wouldn't be posting such nonsense. You call the UN, ICC, world press, the whole structure of international relations just a crowd. Clearly, you live in a separate reality from the rest of world.

 

[Open Bolt]

If you had any idea what a logical fallacy is, you wouldn't be posting such nonsense.

I do know what a logical fallacy is. And that you are relying entirely on logical fallacies is not nonsense. You are in fact relying entirely on logical fallacies.

The fact that your position is indefensible means that it is impossible for you to defend your position with actual facts or logic.

You call the UN, ICC, world press, the whole structure of international relations just a crowd.

Appeals to authority are logical fallacies too.

And you do not speak for any of these bodies. I doubt that you can actually establish that any of them actually support your position.

Clearly, you live in a separate reality from the rest of world.

There is only one reality. And it remains reality no matter how much you or anyone else denies it.

 

[skye]

That's what happens to mercenaries, it's all part of the game, they fight for money.

Sometimes the thrill of a war is no thrill at at.

But.....they were warned and still.....made their fateful decision.

Now suffer the consequences.

 

[Open Bolt]

That's what happens to mercenaries, it's all part of the game, they fight for money.
Sometimes the thrill of a war is no thrill at at.
But.....they were warned and still.....made their fateful decision.
Now suffer the consequences.

Murdering POWs is a war crime that will have the perpetrators hunted by the world for the rest of their lives.

Look at the way Nazis are still being hunted to this day.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I do know what a logical fallacy is. And that you are relying entirely on logical fallacies is not nonsense. You are in fact relying entirely on logical fallacies.

The fact that your position is indefensible means that it is impossible for you to defend your position with actual facts or logic.



Appeals to authority are logical fallacies too.

And you do not speak for any of these bodies. I doubt that you can actually establish that any of them actually support your position.



There is only one reality. And it remains reality no matter how much you or anyone else denies it.

I see you've done a little research about logical fallacies, but you chose the wrong one. There is no appeal to authority. My point is that you live in a reality that is different from the rest of the world.

Each of us creates his own reality based on the information he has, the training he has had, the environment he lives in and much more and to the extent these factors differ, our notions of reality differ, and only a fool or a disturbed person believes his limited ability to understand reality is a full or true understanding of reality. That's why the exhaustive investigations of what took place in Kosovo by the UN, the world press and the ICC are so important, they establish a common reality for us just as exhaustive investigations of physical phenomena establish a common understanding of the world among scientists. It is not an appeal to authority or to a crowd that establishes our common reality but a respective the exhaustive investigations and the facts they found that virtually the entire international community embraced to condemn Serbia and support the actions by NATO.

But you do not respect the process or the facts it uncovers and maintain you are uniquely qualified to see the "true" reality and that leads you to make the argument that it is ok for any country to invade any other country and take their land, which translates in might makes right which contradicts your earlier statement that you care about right and wrong since if might makes right there is no right or wrong.

 

[Open Bolt]

only a fool or a disturbed person believes his limited ability to understand reality is a full or true understanding of reality. That's why the exhaustive investigations of what took place in Kosovo by the UN, the world press and the ICC are so important, they establish a common reality for us just as exhaustive investigations of physical phenomena establish a common understanding of the world among scientists.

OK, let's try this:
No such exhaustive investigation has ever found any evidence to back up any of your accusations against Serbia.

But you do not respect the process or the facts it uncovers

That isn't true. I have a very great respect for facts. You just have not posted any facts.

that leads you to make the argument that it is ok for any country to invade any other country and take their land, which translates in might makes right

Rightly so. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

which contradicts your earlier statement that you care about right and wrong since if might makes right there is no right or wrong.

Don't blame me for the state of the world. I'm not responsible for creating the Kosovo precedent.

 

[skye]

Murdering POWs is a war crime that will have the perpetrators hunted by the world for the rest of their lives.

Look at the way Nazis are still being hunted to this day.

They are NOT POW

The are mercenaries.

They work for money and just because they fight for an ideal, whatever that ideal may be.

Thay got caught, cest'la vie.

 

[toomuchtime_]

OK, let's try this:
No such exhaustive investigation has ever found any evidence to back up any of your accusations against Serbia.



That isn't true. I have a very great respect for facts. You just have not posted any facts.



Rightly so. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.



Don't blame me for the state of the world. I'm not responsible for creating the Kosovo precedent.

OK, let's try this:
No such exhaustive investigation has ever found any evidence to back up any of your accusations against Serbia.



That isn't true. I have a very great respect for facts. You just have not posted any facts.



Rightly so. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.



Don't blame me for the state of the world. I'm not responsible for creating the Kosovo precedent.

Of course there exhaustive investigations of what went on in Kosovo by the world press, by the UN and by the ICC. simply refuse to consider anything that doesn't support your very eccentric views.

In the view from your rabbit hole that may be how the world looks, but for the rest of the world, excepting Russia today, might does not make right.

 

[Open Bolt]

They are NOT POW

Wrong. They are POWs, and murdering them is a serious war crime.

The ICC has already taken jurisdiction over war crimes committed in Ukraine, too.

The are mercenaries.

Wrong. They are regular soldiers in the Ukrainian Army.

 

[para bellum]

I'm not responsible for creating the Kosovo precedent.

Well, I see two precedents.
1. NATO attacked a country without UNSC authorization, and it was not in self-defense.
2. The US recognized Kosovo as a Sovereign State after a Declaration by the Kosovo Assembly in 2008.

1 is a violation of the UN Charter. There is no way to escape that.

2 is problematic as there is no good International Law that governs this. The Helsinki Final Act says a State's borders are inviolable by force, but it recognizes that they can be changed by peaceful means.

The Declaration of Independence by the Kosovo Assembly happened several years after Kosovo had been a UN protectorate- it wasn't a matter of invade Serbia, declare independence for Kosovo, welcome to NATO.

Still, many countries did not recognize Kosovo as independent. Serbia certainly did not.

More than 100 countries do, and the ICJ ruled that the Declaration did not violate International Law.

Time passes and they have improved their relationship, and Serbia concedes Kosovo's right to independent governance like it had before 1990. Trump was making progress towards a better peace, and they made an important economic agreement that improved relations.

I still can't get to the point where NATO seized territory, or "stole" Kosovo. NATO doesn't "own" anything and Kosovo is either part of Serbia or it is independent- there is no third choice.

Kosovo wants to join the EU, and the UN, and NATO, but they are not members of any of them and there is no timetable that I am aware of.

 

[skye]

Wrong. They are POWs, and murdering them is a serious war crime.

The ICC has already taken jurisdiction over war crimes committed in Ukraine, too.



Wrong. They are regular soldiers in the Ukrainian Army.

YOU are wrong,

They are NOT POWs......they are mercenaries pure and simple.

They are regular soldiers of the Ukranian Army?

Don't make me laugh.

 

[Open Bolt]

YOU are wrong,

No I'm not.

They are NOT POWs......they are mercenaries pure and simple.

Nope. They are POWs.

They are regular soldiers of the Ukranian Army?
Don't make me laugh.

Yes. They are regular soldiers in the Ukrainian Army. And anyone who murders POWs will be a war criminal who will be hunted for the rest of their lives.

The International Criminal Court has already assumed jurisdiction over the invasion of Ukraine. War criminals are going to have international arrest warrants issued against them.

 

[Open Bolt]

Well, I see two precedents.
1. NATO attacked a country without UNSC authorization, and it was not in self-defense.
2. The US recognized Kosovo as a Sovereign State after a Declaration by the Kosovo Assembly in 2008.

Not too different from Russia invading countries by force and then recognizing chunks of territory in those countries as independent states.

The Declaration of Independence by the Kosovo Assembly happened several years after Kosovo had been a UN protectorate- it wasn't a matter of invade Serbia, declare independence for Kosovo, welcome to NATO.

NATO's earlier aggression and the ongoing occupation were factors in preventing Serbia from acting against Kosovo's independence.

And NATO's recognition of Kosovo helped them break away too.

I don't see how Kosovo's independence can be separated from NATO's actions against Serbia.

Time passes and they have improved their relationship, and Serbia concedes Kosovo's right to independent governance like it had before 1990.

Maybe with the passage of time the West will come to accept Russia's theft of territory.

 

[skye]

No I'm not.



Nope. They are POWs.



Yes. They are regular soldiers in the Ukrainian Army. And anyone who murders POWs will be a war criminal who will be hunted for the rest of their lives.

The International Criminal Court has already assumed jurisdiction over the invasion of Ukraine. War criminals are going to have international arrest warrants issued against them.

You are totally wrong and that's all I will say.

 

[Open Bolt]

You are totally wrong and that's all I will say.

That is incorrect. The ICC is watching. People who murder POWs will face justice for their crimes.

 

[Open Bolt]

Of course there exhaustive investigations of what went on in Kosovo by the world press, by the UN and by the ICC.

I never said that there weren't.

Shall we try again?

No such exhaustive investigation has ever found any evidence to back up any of your accusations against Serbia.

simply refuse to consider anything that doesn't support your very eccentric views.

No. I refuse to consider imaginary findings that don't actually exist.

My belief in facts and reality is hardly an eccentric view. Neither is my belief in fairness and justice.

In the view from your rabbit hole that may be how the world looks, but for the rest of the world, excepting Russia today, might does not make right.

Look again. Russia is capturing territory and setting up new countries on that territory using the Kosovo precedent.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

 

[para bellum]

YOU are wrong,

They are NOT POWs......they are mercenaries pure and simple.

They are regular soldiers of the Ukranian Army?

Don't make me laugh.

I'm sorry he is not wrong under International Law.

The reason is- they are under the command of the Ukrainian Army, they are paid the same rate as Ukrainian soldiers (capped at $230/mo), and they wear the uniform and insignia of the Ukrainian Army. They also take an oath and sign a contract to serve. All that taken together means they are members of the Ukrainian Armed Forces under International Law.

That excludes them from being mercenaries. Article 1 of the UN Mercenary Convention defines who is and who is not a mercenary. There are 2 exclusions here- they are members of the armed forces of a party to the conflict, and they do not get paid more than any other soldier in their specialty or rank.

They are POW's.