Ukraine war

[Silver Cat]

Why is Ukraine joining NATO, something that was not on the table before the invasion, an existential threat?

It was on the table since 2007. It is the existencial threat for the very same reason why Soviet missiles in Cuba were an existencial threat to the USA.

Estonia and Latvia are already in NATO, are they an existential threat?

They are small, but yes, with expansion of NATO infrastructure it might become an existencial threat, or, at least, a significant threat to Kaliningrad and Saint-Petersbourg. Highly likely, that after crushing Ukraine and without accepatable for them weapon-control treaty, the Russians will fight Baltic States and Finland.

Finland is looking to join NATO, are they a existential threat?

It may become. And the Russians are already making their their preparations to fight them.

I wonder if the Russians living in Ukraine would prefer to join the West?

It depends on the terms of said "joining". They don't want to be discriminated and abused, they want to be safe and rich. And in NATO-controlled regions Russians are discriminated, poor and unsafe.

 

[alang1216]

It was on the table since 2007. It is the existencial threat for the very same reason why Soviet missiles in Cuba were an existencial threat to the USA.

There are no nuclear warheads in NATO countries adjacent to Russia so the situation is not the same.

They are small, but yes, with expansion of NATO infrastructure it might become an existencial threat, or, at least, a significant threat to Kaliningrad and Saint-Petersbourg. Highly likely, that after crushing Ukraine and without accepatable for them weapon-control treaty, the Russians will fight Baltic States and Finland.

They have fought Finland before and things don't always go well. Still waiting for signs they are crushing Ukraine

It may become. And the Russians are already making their their preparations to fight them.

Not even Putin is stupid enough to attack NATO when Russia is not being attacked.

It depends on the terms of said "joining". They don't want to be discriminated and abused, they want to be safe and rich. And in NATO-controlled regions Russians are discriminated, poor and unsafe.

They are poor and unsafe in Russia, at least they have some hope in a Western country.

 

[Silver Cat]

There are no nuclear warheads in NATO countries adjacent to Russia so the situation is not the same.

There are no nuclear warheads yet. But they will be, if the Russians don't prevent it. Biden sent pretty clear signal with those B-52s in Ukrainian airspace in the end 2021, and it was the thing that made the war inevitable.

They have fought Finland before and things don't always go well.

They got what they absolutely needed (they moved the border westward and prevented the fall of Leningrad in the beginning of the war), and saved millions of lifes.

Still waiting for signs they are crushing Ukraine

Avdiivka is already their. They are advancing, slowly, but surely in all directions.

Not even Putin is stupid enough to attack NATO when Russia is not being attacked.

Do you think, that Putin is stupid enough to allow NATO attack first? Without mutually acceptable weapon-control treaty they will continue to fight (militarily, politically and economically) to return NATO's military infrastructure to the borders of 1997. If there is a choice between war and peace - mutually acceptable peace is prefered (it's cheaper and safer). But if the only choice is between attack first or be attacked - well, attack first is safer.

They are poor and unsafe in Russia, at least they have some hope in a Western country.

First of all, they are not that poor. Second - cultural genocide, when NATO-controlled government don't allow even speak their own language means pretty much for them.

 

[alang1216]

There are no nuclear warheads yet. But they will be, if the Russians don't prevent it. Biden sent pretty clear signal with those B-52s in Ukrainian airspace in the end 2021, and it was the thing that made the war inevitable.

War was inevitable when Russia annexed Crimea.

They got what they absolutely needed (they moved the border westward and prevented the fall of Leningrad in the beginning of the war), and saved millions of lifes.

What they needed maybe, what they wanted? Not even close.

Avdiivka is already their. They are advancing, slowly, but surely in all directions.

At quite a cost. A pyrrhic victory?

Do you think, that Putin is stupid enough to allow NATO attack first? Without mutually acceptable weapon-control treaty they will continue to fight (militarily, politically and economically) to return NATO's military infrastructure to the borders of 1997. If there is a choice between war and peace - mutually acceptable peace is prefered (it's cheaper and safer). But if the only choice is between attack first or be attacked - well, attack first is safer.

NATO will never agree to attack Russia without tremendous provocation and Putin knows that. NATO is a herd of cats.

First of all, they are not that poor. Second - cultural genocide, when NATO-controlled government don't allow even speak their own language means pretty much for them.

Isn't that exactly what the Russians are doing to the Ukrainians in the occupied territory?

 

[Silver Cat]

War was inevitable when Russia annexed Crimea.

Actually, the post WWII peace was finished and pre-WWIII race has started in 1999 with Clinton's unprovoked and unjustified aggression against Serbia.

What they needed maybe, what they wanted? Not even close.

It could be better, of course, but it was good enough.

At quite a cost. A pyrrhic victory?

Don't listen that much of Ukrainian propaganda.

NATO will never agree to attack Russia without tremendous provocation and Putin knows that. NATO is a herd of cats.

A NATO country (may be, Estonia) can decide to attack local Russians in Narva (87% of its population are Russians), Kallaste, and a number of other cities with Russian majority. And then, likely, Russian Federation will be forced to defend Russian people.

Isn't that exactly what the Russians are doing to the Ukrainians in the occupied territory?

Of course, not. Actually, Ukrainian is one of official languages of Crimea, and even Russian war propaganda use Ukrainian language and Ukrainian songs.


The Russians do not see Ukrainians as "foreigners", they see them as a kind of Russians.
The Russian may see Ukrainians as funny hillbillies, but they're definitely Russian hillbillies. And "Ukrainian culture" take a place in Russian culture more or less similar to the place of, say, "Country music" in American culture.

 

[alang1216]

Actually, the post WWII peace was finished and pre-WWIII race has started in 1999 with Clinton's unprovoked and unjustified aggression against Serbia.

Provoked and justified.

It could be better, of course, but it was good enough.

LoL.

Don't listen that much of Ukrainian propaganda.

You obvious prefer Russian propaganda.

A NATO country (may be, Estonia) can decide to attack local Russians in Narva (87% of its population are Russians), Kallaste, and a number of other cities with Russian majority. And then, likely, Russian Federation will be forced to defend Russian people.

Russia is very experienced with arming insurgent groups within other nations. A direct attack would be redundant.

 

[Silver Cat]

Provoked and justified.

Provoked and justified by Monika Lewinsky?

LoL.

They saved Lenigrad and millions lives. It was a pretty good result.

You obvious prefer Russian propaganda.

I prefer facts.

Russia is very experienced with arming insurgent groups within other nations. A direct attack would be redundant.

It all depends on circumstances. After Russian rebellion in Narva, Estonian government will have a choice -
1) Stop discrimination of the Russians and give them equal political rights.
2) Use military force to attack Narva.

If they chose latter Russia will have a choice:
1) Allow Estonians to genocide the Russians.
2) Attack Estonia, NATO or not NATO.

If they choose latter, the USA have a choice:
1) Allow Russia to eliminate Estonia
2) Fight a nuclear war to eliminate Russia.

And, as the USA do not possess the credible first strike capability, and can't attack Russia and do not suffer unacceptable damage after it, it's highly unlikely, that the USA will commit suicide.

 

[alang1216]

It all depends on circumstances. After Russian rebellion in Narva, Estonian government will have a choice -
1) Stop discrimination of the Russians and give them equal political rights.
2) Use military force to attack Narva.

If they chose latter Russia will have a choice:
1) Allow Estonians to genocide the Russians.
2) Attack Estonia, NATO or not NATO.

If they choose latter, the USA have a choice:
1) Allow Russia to eliminate Estonia
2) Fight a nuclear war to eliminate Russia.

And, as the USA do not possess the credible first strike capability, and can't attack Russia and do not suffer unacceptable damage after it, it's highly unlikely, that the USA will commit suicide.

Maybe their best option is to revoke the Estonian citizenship of any Russian who came to Estonia after the end of WWII and before independence in 1991. The people and their descendants were essentially colonists and have no right to continue to occupy Estonia.

 

[Silver Cat]

Maybe their best option is to revoke the Estonian citizenship of any Russian who came to Estonia after the end of WWII and before independence in 1991. The people and their descendants were essentially colonists and have no right to continue to occupy Estonia.

Most of them already do not have an Estonian citizenship. Actually, Estonian government may even decide to send all those people into the death camps. The problem is, that such a decision will definitely cause Russian rebellion and then Russian invasion. The question is - should we support such a decision, should we defend those Nazies and should we endanger American citizens to allow Estonian nazies to discrimate, abuse and genocide local Russians.
I don't think so. If they want to be our allies - they shouldn't endanger American citizens, they shouldn't be too provocative, and they need to share our values (and xenophobia isn't one of it).

 

[alang1216]

Most of them already do not have an Estonian citizenship. Actually, Estonian government may even decide to send all those people into the death camps. The problem is, that such a decision will definitely cause Russian rebellion and then Russian invasion. The question is - should we support such a decision, should we defend those Nazies and should we endanger American citizens to allow Estonian nazies to discrimate, abuse and genocide local Russians.
I don't think so. If they want to be our allies - they shouldn't endanger American citizens, they shouldn't be too provocative, and they need to share our values (and xenophobia isn't one of it).

Xenophobia is definitely one of our values, Google Trump and our border if you need to. Hopefully the Estonians are a bit more civilized than the Russians and won't send people to gulags, something the world would not support. Deporting undesirable, non-citizens is very different and something we do here in the US.

 

[longly]

The coward Biden is losing in Ukraine because he's a coward: he has what Ukraine needs to fight and even win, but he's too afraid to give it to them. He and the Democrats are responsible for the Disaster that is coming.

I know your capable of thinking so think about this; Ukraine is not Biden's main priority if it was, he'd have made any deal on the border that he needed to make to get the funding to Ukraine, but he chose not to do that. To hell with the funding, he has warehouses full of weapons, he has the keys the warehouses and the means to transport the weapons to Ukraine, so what is stopping him from doing it? let Congress worry about restocking the warehouses this is an emergency!

 

[Deadstick]

Provoked and justified.


LoL.


You obvious prefer Russian propaganda.


Russia is very experienced with arming insurgent groups within other nations. A direct attack would be redundant.

How did Serbia provoke that war criminal Clinton into attacking them?

 

[Billo_Really]

So what is going on the Ukraine War. Have the Abrams tanks been a game changer. have the Abrams given the Ukrainian arm forces the edge?

54% of Ukrainian aid goes to US companies.

Ergo, Ukrainian aid is good for the US economy.

 

[Deadstick]

Xenophobia is definitely one of our values, Google Trump and our border if you need to. Hopefully the Estonians are a bit more civilized than the Russians and won't send people to gulags, something the world would not support. Deporting undesirable, non-citizens is very different and something we do here in the US.

No they just volunteered for the SS and took part in the holocaust, and like that Nazi filth in Ukraine have regular commemorations for the Estonian SS.

 

[Deadstick]

54% of Ukrainian aid goes to US companies.

Ergo, Ukrainian aid is good for the US economy.

What its good for is the industrial military complex, thats ok if you don't mind the $$$$$$$$$$$ soaked in blood, check the book by Smedley Butler, War is a Racket, don't you get it yet?

 

[Billo_Really]

What its good for is the industrial military complex, thats ok if you don't mind the $$$$$$$$$$$ soaked in blood, check the book by Smedley Butler, War is a Racket, don't you get it yet?

I get it. And I understand your point to. It is a valid one.

 

[alang1216]

How did Serbia provoke that war criminal Clinton into attacking them?

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1199 was the justification.

 

[alang1216]

No they just volunteered for the SS and took part in the holocaust, and like that Nazi filth in Ukraine have regular commemorations for the Estonian SS.

The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

 

[Deadstick]

The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

I have never bought that bollocks, whats right is right and whats wrong is wrong, collaborating with Nazi killers was wrong period.

 

[Deadstick]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1199 was the justification.

That resolution was for Kosovo, and it didn't give Nato authority to attack the Serbs, the Serbs were fighting a terrorist problem and the US sided with the terrorists as usual, Clinton is a war criminal simple as that and so is his toxic wife.