CNN — LOU DOBBS TONIGHT — Aired January 9, 2009 - 19:00 ET
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Israel tonight says incessant rocket attacks by Hamas led to its invasion of Gaza, but who is supplying those rockets to Hamas? We're joined now by Gordon Chang, he's the author of "The Coming Collapse of China," along with CNN military analyst, General David Grange.
Thank you both for being here. Gordon, you say straight forwardly that China is providing those rockets, both directly and indirectly to Hamas.
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR: Yeah, those rockets were manufactured by Szechuan Aerospace Industry Cooperation, they were purchased by Iran, they went by a round-about route, including Yemen and some other places and they ended up in Hamas's hands.
Now, Iran makes the same type of weapon, 122 mm rocket, but Hamas uses the Chinese version because it's better and I suspect that the Iranians want some measure of deniability so they don't use Iranian rockets, they use the Chinese ones.
DOBBS: When you say better, you're talking about they have a longer range?
CHANG: They have a longer range. They can go 40 miles and they can hit targets far deeper into southern Israel, like the school in Beersheba that was attacked on December 31.
DOBBS: Why is it that the national news media, that the Bush administration, for that matter the transition team of the, to-be Obama administration, and the Israelis themselves are not focusing on these facts?
CHANG: Well, Israel has talked to China privately about China's relationship with Hamas and has gotten nowhere. So, I suspect that Israel is looking towards Washington. But Washington, for some reason, and I think it's because you know, we have this very indulgent attitude towards the Chinese, really isn't doing anything.
DOBBS: How extensive, General Grange, is China's involvement in the Midwestern — the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis?
BRIG GEN DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think there's a lot of influence, there's a lot of influence not only by China, but by Russia providing weaponry, I mean, a lot of the Israeli mission was to interdict that rocket infiltration, the cache sites, the supply dumps of those rockets set for continuous barrage into Israel. And it's a destabilizing effect using surrogates. And here, you are using surrogates. It's not nation to nation, you're doing a cutout through Iran to supply the surrogates and you disrupt it...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Instead, as have been, custom through the Cold War, instead of — well, they are rogue states, but also terrorist organizations now rather than nation states?
GRANGE: Yeah, it's a (INAUDIBLE) state. It's a terrorist organization, it's also a political party and has an army supplied by people we deal with, other nations.
DOBBS: And why, Gordon, is the United States government not responding, here? You talked about an indulgent attitude. It looks more like a cowering on the part of this administration. Could that have some — could the fact that we are dealing, trading with a country in the case of communist China, that holds a trillion dollars in hard reserves of our currency?
CHANG: Well, I'm sure that has something to do with it because people in Washington correctly feel that China has a lot of leverage over the U.S. because of this. But, you know, we also have this view that if we're just nice to the Chinese, they're going to reciprocate and sort of be responsible citizens of the international community.
But the Chinese sort of look at our friendliness as a sign of weakness, so they continue bad conduct and they see that we reward them for it, so they continue to destabilize the international system. And there are many officials in Beijing who say if they continue to destabilize the world, that they will be the last men standing.
DOBBS: That has to be part of the strategic understanding on the part of the U.S. military, yet there has been to, at least to my knowledge, no strategic response on the part of the United States extraordinary activity on the part of the Chinese in this hemisphere. Their investments in this hemisphere, their cooperation with Venezuela, with other nation states, they have taken control of the canal that the United States abandoned, the Panama Canal, if this is a strategic piece of infrastructure in the hemisphere, that is certainly it.
GRANGE: Both ends. Both ends are controlled.
DOBBS: But why in the world...
GRANGE: This is a regular warfare and this is like potro-politics, Sharia finance, using information to indirectly attack you during peacetime to set conditions for future conflict if it comes about.
DOBBS: Well, let's talk about the conditions for any kind of resolution because there are those suggesting that the United Nations, for some reason, have gained some standing in the public, at least in the national news media, because they're calling for a cease-fire. This is the same organization that's been discredited by most rational observers, but now it's in fashion again, apparently.
What should be the template for some cease-fire and a stabilization between Hamas and the United States - General.
GRANGE: Well, having done several peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations, Chapter 6s and Chapter 7s, most of them do not have teeth. And the thing is, you have, who's on the Security Council? Russia and China. And, so you, one, have to put peace officers, keepers, that are not influenced by a particular party or country. The other thing is, actually I would put Chinese peacekeepers in there and hold them responsible.
DOBBS: What do you think of that idea, Gordon?
(LAUGHING)
CHANG: I think they might stop selling rockets to Hamas.
DOBBS: Well, and it would be nice too if the national news media in its reporting on a United Nations direction for a cease-fire, would report on who is on that Security Council and explain the competing interest.
Thank you very much. Gordon Chang, we appreciate it. General David Grange, thank you, sir.
