CDZ True or false, government dictating to private organizations is fascist.

[Pellinore]

Reminder, this is the "Clean Debate Zone".

True. Fascism permits private ownership, but not necessarily private management.

It’s communism, but communist and fascist from same side of political spectrum. THE LEFT.

Fascism is by definition an extreme right-wing reaction to (perceived or real) failures of leftist policies. It is not itself from the left.

Never heard that one.

It's a definition supported by, among others, Robert Paxton in "The Anatomy of Fascism," although he obviously goes into a lot more detail with a lot more nuance. It's a good read if you get a chance.

 

[flacaltenn]

Vote only for folks who have a TRACK RECORD of accomplishments OUTSIDE the realm of govt...

The view of leftists is that government isn't about running it like a business. They don't believe in electing people into office based on their extraordinary success in the business world. They prefer community organizers, career-politicians and academic ideologues.

Both parties have turned the Swamp into a Hogwarts style sporting event.. There's none of people's business that has a CHANCE of getting noticed...

Good Administrators and oversight don't DEVELOP inside the beltway.. These folks need a private sector track record to be eligible for a draft.... And there might have been an argument about where ethics/morals were rare between private sector and Fed govt -- but THAT argument is hands down settled NOW...

 

[sartre play]

The problem with running government like a business, the goal of business is too make money, the money they make is to put money in the pocket of the owner & investors. not a bad thing in its self, but if my business can make more money by dumping my trash in the river so be it. that's the bottom line. Governments job is to make the country work by taking care of our national resources. making opportunity as equal as possible and defending us from those who would deprive us of life liberty and the pursuit of something we like to call happiness. most of our leaders are in pursuit of what they want and or money.

 

[K9Buck]

The problem with running government like a business, the goal of business is too make money, the money they make is to put money in the pocket of the owner & investors. not a bad thing in its self, but if my business can make more money by dumping my trash in the river so be it. that's the bottom line. Governments job is to make the country work by taking care of our national resources. making opportunity as equal as possible and defending us from those who would deprive us of life liberty and the pursuit of something we like to call happiness. most of our leaders are in pursuit of what they want and or money.

Did you use "speech-to-text"?

People are inherently corrupt. Therefore, it's better to limit the power we give to government, which is made up of people who, often times, engage in corruption. And even when well-intended, government is often inefficient and wasteful. For these reasons, it's better to limit the size and scope of government. Mind you, I'm not opposed to government. We need government, but we don't need government managing every facet of our lives. Besides, we can't afford it.

 

[sparky]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

 

[K9Buck]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

 

[Syriusly]

Reminder, this is the "Clean Debate Zone".

True. Fascism permits private ownership, but not necessarily private management.

All governments- without exception- dictate to one degree or another what they must do.

For instance- is it Fascism when a government tells a business they can't dump their chemical refuse into a river? When it tells a business that its trucks must meet minimum safety requirements?

So to be specific- the answer is False.

 

[Syriusly]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

Except that isn't the definition of Fascism

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

A Fascist government may tell business's what they can charge- or may not.

 

[Syriusly]

Reminder, this is the "Clean Debate Zone".

True. Fascism permits private ownership, but not necessarily private management.

There are actual limits to when the FEDS in particular can indeed dictate to private orgs.. That would be on interstate commerce issues first and foremost.. And apparently on equity in hiring, minimum wages, taxation, and the REQUIREMENT to follow company registration, SEC rules, ect...

Some of those "powers" that have been taken largely thru the commerce clause, are really questionable.. Like the usefulness of having a nation-wide min wage in a country where the cost of living can vary by as much as 3 to 1... Same with a lot of enviro regs where a state can OVER-RIDE the Fed standards and de facto BAN certain sectors of industry and product...

BUT -- when I hear the crazed comments of the Insane Clown Posse that are Dem Prez candidates, I DO tend to think ultra authoritarian and extra-constitutional -- if not "fascist".. There have been MANY of these. The latest was (Warren or Harris IIRC) calling for FEDERAL rent control.. Or the Dem party which once SHUNNED states rights NOW blatantly ignoring Federal immigration law, election law and the Bill of Rights.

So the "fascism" can originate in D.C. or it can and actually has been more apparent in the various states as the left foolishly tries to stop the bleeding by making "one party" states out of their strongholds...

Speaking of fascism, AOC is proposing national rent control.

AOC pushes national rent control, welfare for illegal immigrants in latest massive proposal
AOC pushes national rent control, welfare for illegal immigrants in latest massive proposal

I saw that.. I'm not surprised that a "Boston economics degree" doesn't include ANYTHING about basic govt structure or power.. If this was a "normal job" her ass would have been fired the first week for not knowing what business her employer was in....

The ruling class has almost zero real-world work experience and that's why we're all fucked.

That's actually fixable.. Vote only for folks who have a TRACK RECORD of accomplishments OUTSIDE the realm of govt... It's insane to vote for a waitress with a fake biz/economics degree who's never accomplished a THING in her life except defrauding her parents for college money and SOMEHOW stealing a degree from Boston University...

If only we had a President right now with a track record of accomplishments outside the realm of government instead of a train wreck trail of bankruptcies and failed business's

 

[K9Buck]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

Except that isn't the definition of Fascism

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

A Fascist government may tell business's what they can charge- or may not.

Yes, rent control is fascism.

 

[Syriusly]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

Except that isn't the definition of Fascism

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

A Fascist government may tell business's what they can charge- or may not.

Yes, rent control is fascism.

Great I am glad to play this game

trade barriers are fascism.

Blaming an ethnic minority for the economic faults of a country is fascism.

eminent domain is fascism

Attacking the news media is fascism

Lying to voters is fascism

Oh there are so many things that are 'fascism' if we just decide to make whatever we want be 'fascism'

 

[Syriusly]

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003
The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
   
   
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
   
   
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
   
   
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
   
   
5. Rampant Sexism
   The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
   
   
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
   
   
7. Obsession with National Security
   Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
   
   
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
   
   
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
   
   
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
    
    
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
    
    
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    
    
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    
    
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

 

[K9Buck]

This is textbook fascism.

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

Except that isn't the definition of Fascism

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

A Fascist government may tell business's what they can charge- or may not.

Yes, rent control is fascism.

Great I am glad to play this game

trade barriers are fascism.

Blaming an ethnic minority for the economic faults of a country is fascism.

eminent domain is fascism

Attacking the news media is fascism

Lying to voters is fascism

Oh there are so many things that are 'fascism' if we just decide to make whatever we want be 'fascism'

Fascism rejects free-market capitalism. Rent control is contrary to free-market capitalism. Rent control is consistent with fascist economic ideology and practices.

 

[K9Buck]

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003
The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
   
   
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
   
   
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
   
   
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
   
   
5. Rampant Sexism
   The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
   
   
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
   
   
7. Obsession with National Security
   Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
   
   
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
   
   
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
   
   
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
    
    
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
    
    
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    
    
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    
    
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Some of this guy's definition is accurate, but his claims on nationalism are too broad. Lots of world leaders have been nationals but not fascist.

 

[Syriusly]

a textbook example of how fascism insidiously creeps in w/out folks really being aware of it.....

~S~

Correct. It's because they're ignorant. They don't understand anything about fascism. To them, the word "fascist" is a pejorative to call someone you dislike.

Government dictating how much a PRIVATE person can charge another for the use of their OWN property is the epitome of fascism.

Except that isn't the definition of Fascism

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

A Fascist government may tell business's what they can charge- or may not.

Yes, rent control is fascism.

Great I am glad to play this game

trade barriers are fascism.

Blaming an ethnic minority for the economic faults of a country is fascism.

eminent domain is fascism

Attacking the news media is fascism

Lying to voters is fascism

Oh there are so many things that are 'fascism' if we just decide to make whatever we want be 'fascism'

Fascism rejects free-market capitalism. Rent control is contrary to free-market capitalism. Rent control is consistent with fascist economic ideology and practices.

Fascism doesn't have a problem with free- market capitalism- as long as it supports the Fascist regime.

Trade Barriers are contrary to free- market capitalism. Trade barriers are consistent with fascist economic ideology and practices

 

[Syriusly]

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003
The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
   
   
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
   
   
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
   
   
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
   
   
5. Rampant Sexism
   The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
   
   
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
   
   
7. Obsession with National Security
   Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
   
   
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
   
   
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
   
   
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
    
    
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
    
    
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    
    
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    
    
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Some of this guy's definition is accurate, but his claims on nationalism are too broad. Lots of world leaders have been nationals but not fascist.

Just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him wrong. He studied fascist governments around the world and this is the list he came up with.
Oddly rent control was not one of the defining characteristics.

 

[K9Buck]

Fascism doesn't have a problem with free- market capitalism- as long as it supports the Fascist regime.

Nazi Germany did not have a free-market economy and neither did Italy. Neither did Franco-led Spain. Neither does China today. Free-market capitalism is FREEDOM. The rejection of free-market capitalism is tyranny, to one degree or another.

 

[K9Buck]

Just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him wrong. He studied fascist governments around the world and this is the list he came up with.
Oddly rent control was not one of the defining characteristics.

When defining fascism, one should look at how Mussolini and Hitler defined it in their own "manifestos", if you will. As important is to look at what they actually did. I told you that I AGREED with much of what he wrote. Yea, nationalism may be a tenet of fascism but that doesn't mean that everyone who is a nationalist is a fascist. American's founding fathers were ardent nationalists, but they weren't "fascist". Lincoln was a nationalist. Hell, every fan that throws on their nation's soccer jersey for the World Cup could be called a "nationalist". Are they all fascists too? Of course not.

The government dictating how much you can charge for your product, service or use of property is absolutely the type of thing that bona-fide fascist states did.

And speaking of religious-like devotion to the state/party/government, that is absolutely a practice of the American left today and for the past decade. It ain't the ride that worships government. Yea, fascism is the extreme of LEFTIST ideology. The claim that fascism is "right-wing" is the dumbest, most ignorant lie ever spewed.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are actual limits to when the FEDS in particular can indeed dictate to private orgs.. That would be on interstate commerce issues first and foremost.. And apparently on equity in hiring, minimum wages, taxation, and the REQUIREMENT to follow company registration, SEC rules, ect...

Some of those "powers" that have been taken largely thru the commerce clause, are really questionable.. Like the usefulness of having a nation-wide min wage in a country where the cost of living can vary by as much as 3 to 1... Same with a lot of enviro regs where a state can OVER-RIDE the Fed standards and de facto BAN certain sectors of industry and product...

BUT -- when I hear the crazed comments of the Insane Clown Posse that are Dem Prez candidates, I DO tend to think ultra authoritarian and extra-constitutional -- if not "fascist".. There have been MANY of these. The latest was (Warren or Harris IIRC) calling for FEDERAL rent control.. Or the Dem party which once SHUNNED states rights NOW blatantly ignoring Federal immigration law, election law and the Bill of Rights.

So the "fascism" can originate in D.C. or it can and actually has been more apparent in the various states as the left foolishly tries to stop the bleeding by making "one party" states out of their strongholds...

Speaking of fascism, AOC is proposing national rent control.

AOC pushes national rent control, welfare for illegal immigrants in latest massive proposal
AOC pushes national rent control, welfare for illegal immigrants in latest massive proposal

I saw that.. I'm not surprised that a "Boston economics degree" doesn't include ANYTHING about basic govt structure or power.. If this was a "normal job" her ass would have been fired the first week for not knowing what business her employer was in....

The ruling class has almost zero real-world work experience and that's why we're all fucked.

That's actually fixable.. Vote only for folks who have a TRACK RECORD of accomplishments OUTSIDE the realm of govt... It's insane to vote for a waitress with a fake biz/economics degree who's never accomplished a THING in her life except defrauding her parents for college money and SOMEHOW stealing a degree from Boston University...

If only we had a President right now with a track record of accomplishments outside the realm of government instead of a train wreck trail of bankruptcies and failed business's

Ain't no wealthy successful peop[e that didn't suffer and crash and burn.. UNLESS -- the entire Daddy/Mommy estate just fell into their lap.. You're just jealous of how successful he ended up...

 

[K9Buck]

Ain't no wealthy successful peop[e that didn't suffer and crash and burn.. UNLESS -- the entire Daddy/Mommy estate just fell into their lap.. You're just jealous of how successful he ended up...

To be a liberal requires one to live in an alternate reality. Trump has been hugely successful in business. One has to be in delusional denial to believe otherwise.