To ration or not

[PoliticalChic]

Thanks for these examples of how America has failed its citizens.

How about putting your dinaro where you put your dinner, and tell me which country you'll be moving to.

Read and repent:


1. “…while the numbers clearly show that people are happier with their own health care than with the system as a whole, there is no dimension with which their happier than the quality of care they personally receive…a mere 15 percent complain about the quality of care they receive.”.(New England Journal of Medicine)
Health Beat: The Quality Question

2. “…when one digs deep enough, one finds that only 8 million folks can be classified as "chronically uninsured;" that's still a problem, of course, but a much more manageable one, and puts the lie to the canard that our system is irretrievably broken.”
InsureBlog: Vindicated!

“Once you whittle it down, you start to realize that the number of hard-core uninsured who are citizens is in fact fairly small — perhaps half the reported 47 million or less. (about 7.6%)”
IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The '47 Million Uninsured' Myth

3. “The biggest fallacy of the Obama healthcare plan is that it would cover every America. It wouldn’t. It would provide the option of health care, but it would still cost money and I suspect that lots of those uninsured adults between 18-34 would still rather spend the money on something else. It wouldn’t do any more to insure children than is already being done independently of his plan.”
The Myth of the Uninsured American : Conservative Blog: Urban Conservative 2.0 - Conservative News & Politics


4. "If I lived in New Zealand, I would be dead.
The American health-care system may be a crazy mess, but it is the prime mover in the global ecology of medical treatment, creating the world’s biggest market for new drugs and devices. Even as we argue about whether or how our health-care system should change, most Americans take for granted our access to the best available cancer treatments—including the one that arguably saved my life. "
My Drug Problem - The Atlantic (March 2009)

5. "However, 89 percent were satisfied with their own health care quality and 57 percent with their personal costs. Losing insurance is a concern for 56 percent of respondents with private care, and 60 percent of those with any form of health coverage worried about their ability to afford insurance over the next few years.
Support for universal government-provided coverage fell further when the survey suggested the possibility of higher costs or taxes (35 percent), waiting lists (33 percent), limited choice of doctors (28 percent), or loss of coverage for some treatments (18 percent). ABC News' coverage did not call any of these a "significant hurdle" for supporters of universal coverage to overcome.
News Media Misreport Health Survey - by Joseph Coletti - Health Care News


6. For instance, while 88 percent say their coverage overall is excellent or good, that includes just 33 percent who call it "excellent." While 57 percent are satisfied with their own costs, just 23 percent are very satisfied. And even on overall quality of care, while 89 percent are satisfied, fewer are very satisfied, 52 percent.
As Health Care Costs Take a Toll, Some Changes Win Broad Backing - ABC News

From one of your links:

Costs in the nation's health care system are ensnaring millions more Americans: One in four report problems paying their medical bills, and nearly three in 10 -- rising to nearly half of women with children -- have put off treatment because of the cost, often despite a serious illness or condition. Both are new highs in polls dating back a decade or more.

Sure is a ringing endorsement of the American system! Our system is so great 30% of our populace puts off treatments because of cost!

Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.

The great majority of Americans are very pleased with their medical care.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

Canucks come to America for health care
Filed under: Canucks, economic ignorance, socialism — crushliberalism @ 10:20 am

Just how good is that Canadian “universal health care”? It’s so good that…Canadians are coming here for private health care. From Buffalo News:
Canucks come to America for health care « Crush Liberalism

 

[PoliticalChic]

You have no problem with private insurance companies in the US denying treatments because of pre-existing conditions, or other technicalities?
Ask most Canadians if they'd give up their public healthcare .... you'd get a resounding "NO". Why doesn't the conservative government in Canada do away with public healthcare?
Insurance and pharmaceutical companies in the US have done quite a job with their propaganda.

National Healthcare in the United States? Why don't you have a little consideration for all the Canadians who come here for there healthcare?

Where will they go if we socialize healthcare?

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

"Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament."
"An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association. Meanwhile, some 200 physicians head to the United States each year, attracted by lower taxes and better working conditions. Canada has 2.1 physicians per 1,000 people, while Belgium has 3.9, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."
Canadian Health Care In Crisis - CBS News

 

[Nik]

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

"Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab."

"Rick Baker helps people, and sometimes even saves lives. He describes a man who had a seizure and received a diagnosis of epilepsy. Dissatisfied with the opinion—he had no family history of epilepsy, but he did have constant headaches and nausea, which aren’t usually seen in the disorder—the man requested an MRI. The government told him that the wait would be four and a half months. So he went to Baker, who arranged to have the MRI done within 24 hours—and who, after the test discovered a brain tumor, arranged surgery within a few weeks.

Baker isn’t a neurosurgeon or even a doctor. He’s a medical broker, one member of a private sector that is rushing in to address the inadequacies of Canada’s government care. Canadians pay him to set up surgical procedures, diagnostic tests, and specialist consultations, privately and quickly."
Timely Medical Alternatives, has helped—people like the elderly woman who needed vascular surgery for a major artery in her abdomen and was promised prompt care by one of the most senior bureaucrats in the government, who never called back. “Her doctor told her she’s going to die,” Baker remembers. So Timely got her surgery in a couple of days, in Washington State. "
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

While these may not represent a statistic, as you requested, the article is very informative vis-a-vis Canadians making arangements to get help outside of Canada, both in the United States.

I'd be interested in your perspective on the article.

Every system has flaws. Just curious...if the Canadian system is so flawed, why aren't any Canadians looking to create a US style system?

 

[Nik]

How about putting your dinaro where you put your dinner, and tell me which country you'll be moving to.

Read and repent:


1. “…while the numbers clearly show that people are happier with their own health care than with the system as a whole, there is no dimension with which their happier than the quality of care they personally receive…a mere 15 percent complain about the quality of care they receive.”.(New England Journal of Medicine)
Health Beat: The Quality Question

2. “…when one digs deep enough, one finds that only 8 million folks can be classified as "chronically uninsured;" that's still a problem, of course, but a much more manageable one, and puts the lie to the canard that our system is irretrievably broken.”
InsureBlog: Vindicated!

“Once you whittle it down, you start to realize that the number of hard-core uninsured who are citizens is in fact fairly small — perhaps half the reported 47 million or less. (about 7.6%)”
IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The '47 Million Uninsured' Myth

3. “The biggest fallacy of the Obama healthcare plan is that it would cover every America. It wouldn’t. It would provide the option of health care, but it would still cost money and I suspect that lots of those uninsured adults between 18-34 would still rather spend the money on something else. It wouldn’t do any more to insure children than is already being done independently of his plan.”
The Myth of the Uninsured American : Conservative Blog: Urban Conservative 2.0 - Conservative News & Politics


4. "If I lived in New Zealand, I would be dead.
The American health-care system may be a crazy mess, but it is the prime mover in the global ecology of medical treatment, creating the world’s biggest market for new drugs and devices. Even as we argue about whether or how our health-care system should change, most Americans take for granted our access to the best available cancer treatments—including the one that arguably saved my life. "
My Drug Problem - The Atlantic (March 2009)

5. "However, 89 percent were satisfied with their own health care quality and 57 percent with their personal costs. Losing insurance is a concern for 56 percent of respondents with private care, and 60 percent of those with any form of health coverage worried about their ability to afford insurance over the next few years.
Support for universal government-provided coverage fell further when the survey suggested the possibility of higher costs or taxes (35 percent), waiting lists (33 percent), limited choice of doctors (28 percent), or loss of coverage for some treatments (18 percent). ABC News' coverage did not call any of these a "significant hurdle" for supporters of universal coverage to overcome.
News Media Misreport Health Survey - by Joseph Coletti - Health Care News


6. For instance, while 88 percent say their coverage overall is excellent or good, that includes just 33 percent who call it "excellent." While 57 percent are satisfied with their own costs, just 23 percent are very satisfied. And even on overall quality of care, while 89 percent are satisfied, fewer are very satisfied, 52 percent.
As Health Care Costs Take a Toll, Some Changes Win Broad Backing - ABC News

From one of your links:

Costs in the nation's health care system are ensnaring millions more Americans: One in four report problems paying their medical bills, and nearly three in 10 -- rising to nearly half of women with children -- have put off treatment because of the cost, often despite a serious illness or condition. Both are new highs in polls dating back a decade or more.

Sure is a ringing endorsement of the American system! Our system is so great 30% of our populace puts off treatments because of cost!

Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.

The great majority of Americans are very pleased with their medical care.

From your link, only 33% called their coverage "excellent".

By the way, most people don't know how bad their coverage is until they actually need to get reimbused for medical emergencies.

 

[PoliticalChic]

From one of your links:



Sure is a ringing endorsement of the American system! Our system is so great 30% of our populace puts off treatments because of cost!

Let not the perfect be the enemy of the good.

The great majority of Americans are very pleased with their medical care.

From your link, only 33% called their coverage "excellent".

By the way, most people don't know how bad their coverage is until they actually need to get reimbused for medical emergencies.

Let's hope that neither of us need it.

 

[strollingbones]

do yall realize that the minute you use your insurance..they are gonna drop your ass....so insurance sucks...you want to find out how much it sucks...get sick and realize your insurance doesnt really cover shit....cancer...o they dont cover this or that...its much cheaper for them to let you die...what fool depends on a a for profit insurance to keep them alive...when death is much cheaper for the insurance company in the long run...

how many bankruptcy are the result of medical bills....i guess people just shouldnt get sick...

you know how much your 20% of fighting cancer amounts too?

 

[strollingbones]

why are you comparing it to canada...in canada they have caps on doctors salaries...which has resulted in a shortage of doctors....they practice in canada till they reach the earnings cap ...i have not had a family doctor for ages...i cant get anyone to take me on...i have optical migraines....nothing can be done but i would like a family doctor...but once they hear optical migraines they think drug seeker....if you people think you have good insurance....think again...we are at the mercy of a system geared to the rich...ie.....steve jobs...how did he get that liver so fast and why did he get it in tn? well i will answer that for you...each state has a registery ...done by the person needing the transplant the most...well if you can afford the charter jet...you can register in as many states as you can...then fly when the call comes in..how many people have chartered jets or the money to charter one? so jobs had registered in a lot of states...finding tn to have a shorter waiting list...he got lucky...course some poor sob without money probably died...but hey that is the american way

 

[Political Junky]

National Healthcare in the United States? Why don't you have a little consideration for all the Canadians who come here for there healthcare?

Where will they go if we socialize healthcare?

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

"Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament."
"An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association. Meanwhile, some 200 physicians head to the United States each year, attracted by lower taxes and better working conditions. Canada has 2.1 physicians per 1,000 people, while Belgium has 3.9, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development."
Canadian Health Care In Crisis - CBS News

Physicians per 1,000 people (most recent) by country

Yes, and the US has 2.3 doctors per thousand people. Click on the link for a list of countries.

 

[Political Junky]

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

Canucks come to America for health care
Filed under: Canucks, economic ignorance, socialism — crushliberalism @ 10:20 am

Just how good is that Canadian “universal health care”? It’s so good that…Canadians are coming here for private health care. From Buffalo News:
Canucks come to America for health care « Crush Liberalism

What a wingnut source that is. This is a paragraph from the article:

Let that sink in, folks. It is a crime for people in Canada for people to spend their own money (a) in any manner they see fit and (b) on their own health! And Edwards, Obama, Shrillary, et al on the left want that to come here? I don’t think so! Continuing:

 

[alan1]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

William Faulkner's father made the decision with his living will, not some government bureaucrat counting pennies. That's not rationing.
Try again.

 

[Nik]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

William Faulkner's father made the decision with his living will, not some government bureaucrat counting pennies. That's not rationing.
Try again.

William Falk, not William Faulkner. And way to miss the point of the article.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

Canucks come to America for health care
Filed under: Canucks, economic ignorance, socialism — crushliberalism @ 10:20 am

Just how good is that Canadian “universal health care”? It’s so good that…Canadians are coming here for private health care. From Buffalo News:
Canucks come to America for health care « Crush Liberalism

What a wingnut source that is. This is a paragraph from the article:

Let that sink in, folks. It is a crime for people in Canada for people to spend their own money (a) in any manner they see fit and (b) on their own health! And Edwards, Obama, Shrillary, et al on the left want that to come here? I don’t think so! Continuing:

Does seem like a strange source.

But are you saying that politicians wouldn't want this kind of care?

You don't think that the elites would be exposed to the same kind of nationalized care as the rest of us, do you?

From 'Animal Farm,' some animals are more equal than others.

 

[alan1]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

William Faulkner's father made the decision with his living will, not some government bureaucrat counting pennies. That's not rationing.
Try again.

William Falk, not William Faulkner. And way to miss the point of the article.

Oh crap, I used the wrong name, therefore everything else must have been missed.
Whatever.

 

[Nik]

Canucks come to America for health care
Filed under: Canucks, economic ignorance, socialism — crushliberalism @ 10:20 am

Just how good is that Canadian “universal health care”? It’s so good that…Canadians are coming here for private health care. From Buffalo News:
Canucks come to America for health care « Crush Liberalism

What a wingnut source that is. This is a paragraph from the article:

Let that sink in, folks. It is a crime for people in Canada for people to spend their own money (a) in any manner they see fit and (b) on their own health! And Edwards, Obama, Shrillary, et al on the left want that to come here? I don’t think so! Continuing:

Does seem like a strange source.

But are you saying that politicians wouldn't want this kind of care?

You don't think that the elites would be exposed to the same kind of nationalized care as the rest of us, do you?

From 'Animal Farm,' some animals are more equal than others.

You do know that Congress currently has a government run health plan, right?

 

[PoliticalChic]

What a wingnut source that is. This is a paragraph from the article:

Let that sink in, folks. It is a crime for people in Canada for people to spend their own money (a) in any manner they see fit and (b) on their own health! And Edwards, Obama, Shrillary, et al on the left want that to come here? I don’t think so! Continuing:

Does seem like a strange source.

But are you saying that politicians wouldn't want this kind of care?

You don't think that the elites would be exposed to the same kind of nationalized care as the rest of us, do you?

From 'Animal Farm,' some animals are more equal than others.

You do know that Congress currently has a government run health plan, right?

Are you suggesting that we citizens will get the same level of health plan?

 

[Nik]

William Faulkner's father made the decision with his living will, not some government bureaucrat counting pennies. That's not rationing.
Try again.

William Falk, not William Faulkner. And way to miss the point of the article.

Oh crap, I used the wrong name, therefore everything else must have been missed.
Whatever.

Nice strawman argument there.

You missed the point because it wasn't about government bureaucracies v. living wills. It was about how we have to ration, otherwise every death costs millions of dollars trying to keep people alive for those extra precious seconds.

Not because you couldn't read the name.

 

[alan1]

William Falk, not William Faulkner. And way to miss the point of the article.

Oh crap, I used the wrong name, therefore everything else must have been missed.
Whatever.

Nice strawman argument there.

You missed the point because it wasn't about government bureaucracies v. living wills. It was about how we have to ration, otherwise every death costs millions of dollars trying to keep people alive for those extra precious seconds.

Not because you couldn't read the name.

Yours was the strawman.
And you completely missed my point.
Here, I'll type it real slow for you,
Do you want a government bureaucrat deciding what gets rationed for your health care?

 

[alan1]

Does seem like a strange source.

But are you saying that politicians wouldn't want this kind of care?

You don't think that the elites would be exposed to the same kind of nationalized care as the rest of us, do you?

From 'Animal Farm,' some animals are more equal than others.

You do know that Congress currently has a government run health plan, right?

Are you suggesting that we citizens will get the same level of health plan?

I think Nik is actually ignorant enough to think that.

 

[Nik]

Does seem like a strange source.

But are you saying that politicians wouldn't want this kind of care?

You don't think that the elites would be exposed to the same kind of nationalized care as the rest of us, do you?

From 'Animal Farm,' some animals are more equal than others.

You do know that Congress currently has a government run health plan, right?

Are you suggesting that we citizens will get the same level of health plan?

I have no idea. But I thought that government run health care was so evil, blah, blah blah.

And yet...its Congress who gets the government run plan, and the rest of us have to deal with the shitty private plans?