Time yet to reconsider "the arrow of time"?

[Grumblenuts]

Because it could only be created from nothing

Says you.. so says you. How perfectly circular!

 

[Grumblenuts]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Actually it didn't. It was a quantum tunneling event.

It isn't possible for matter and energy to be an eternal source because of thermal equilibrium.

Indeed, nobody knows.. except Mr. Know_It_All here.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Vilenkin seems essentially correct, Wald a deep thinker, but very circular so self-deluded. It clearly matters greatly to the religious. It matters to me in a sense as well. I too have my theories, but I'd like to know for sure or even just better.

Wald was an atheist, like you.

So?

 

[Grumblenuts]

 

[james bond]

Ah, I see. You two are so similar. Lol.
Mea culpa.

Only in believing there is a God.

What you are claiming is there is something natural exists outside our universe, i.e. it is an open system. In our universe, we have heat transfer from hotter to colder. You are stating there exists heat transfer from a colder place to a hotter place. Yes, this can happen but not in a closed system like our universe.

What do you have to demonstrate another universe?

I showed the experiment in which there was no another universe.

 

[Grumblenuts]

What you are claiming is there is something natural exists outside our universe, i.e. it is an open system.

Then, just like ding, you'll need to quote me doing so. Fact is no one knows if there's anything beyond our observable universe and if one simply says "the universe" they mean everything there is - by definition.

In our universe, we have heat transfer from hotter to colder. You are stating there exists heat transfer from a colder place to a hotter place. Yes, this can happen but not in a closed system like our universe.

Look, open or closed, it can happen and does all the time. Think. Why would anyone get all bothered about "laws" pertaining only to "isolated" systems otherwise? The only truly isolated systems are in our heads. We can imagine them, approximate and make use of them in many circumstances. But they're not natural systems. Nature is the whole business, however big that is. I normally think of it as closed. You can certainly call it closed too and risk ruling out some possible tunneling, worm holes maybe, who knows.. But it makes absolutely no sense or difference when we really have no idea what 'outside our universe' may or may not mean to begin with.

What do you have to demonstrate another universe?

I showed the experiment in which there was no another universe.

I currently don't believe there are any, but I'm open to the possibility.

 

[Quasar44]

Some think that are Bang is simply only one in infinite bangs in infinite universeS

 

[Quasar44]

Brian Greene or Michio Kaku or that black guy who looks like Cleveland are the ones to read about it

I am just a regular guy and I cannot be too expository

 

[ding]

Because it could only be created from nothing

Says you.. so says you. How perfectly circular!

No. Says the only way that the FLoT isn't violated from creating matter. For the FLoT to not be violated the net energy of the universe must be zero. Which means the negative energy of the gravity equals or balances the positive energy of matter. Which means it must be closed otherwise there is no balancing that occurs.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[ding]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Actually it didn't. It was a quantum tunneling event.

It isn't possible for matter and energy to be an eternal source because of thermal equilibrium.

Indeed, nobody knows.. except Mr. Know_It_All here.

The SLoT says so. As time approaches infinity all object will equilibrate. There is no getting around this. So matter and energy cannot be an eternal source. Matter and energy must have a beginning and the only way matter and energy can be created is if the net energy of the universe is zero which means the universe must be closed.

 

[ding]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Vilenkin seems essentially correct, Wald a deep thinker, but very circular so self-deluded. It clearly matters greatly to the religious. It matters to me in a sense as well. I too have my theories, but I'd like to know for sure or even just better.

Wald was an atheist, like you.

So?

So your statement it clearly matters to the religious isn't applicable.

 

[ding]

Some think that are Bang is simply only one in infinite bangs in infinite universeS

Yes, that's multiverse theory. But each universe is self contained and each universe had a beginning and each universe was created from nothing in the manner I have described.

 

[ding]

I don't know it all. I just know more than you.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The arrow of time is the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the second law of thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time. Entropy can be thought of as a measure of microscopic disorder; thus the second law implies that time is asymmetrical with respect to the amount of order in an isolated system: as a system advances through time, it becomes more statistically disordered. This asymmetry can be used empirically to distinguish between future and past, though measuring entropy does not accurately measure time. Also, in an open system, entropy can decrease with time.

With that in mind, let's presume here that the "Universe is Not Expanding After All" (or may not be) and that no practical system can be truly "isolated" or "closed" in reality. Does entropy really force time to go one-way? What if the Universe began shrinking?

Every law of physics and even particles, tells us that the universe is bi-directonal.

So, think big bounce versus big bang. Mirror image. The second law is itself a product of an unproven theory.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Because it could only be created from nothing

Says you.. so says you. How perfectly circular!

No. Says the only way that the FLoT isn't violated from creating matter. For the FLoT to not be violated the net energy of the universe must be zero. Which means the negative energy of the gravity equals or balances the positive energy of matter. Which means it must be closed otherwise there is no balancing that occurs.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

More (and a repeated Wald) circular argument. The FLoT also applies only to "isolated" systems. If, as it appears, all expanded from a point then there had to be something for it to expand into. Hungry for energy and matter. We're talking then about the exact opposite of "isolated." Wide open. Your laws of thermodynamics simply cannot apply - by definition. You also violate the hell out of the very premise by introducing, not just something from nothing, but way more than you end up with, rationalizing away the excess by conveniently introducing cancelling antimatter and so forth..

"energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That's your law. Start owning it or forget it.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Actually it didn't. It was a quantum tunneling event.

It isn't possible for matter and energy to be an eternal source because of thermal equilibrium.

Indeed, nobody knows.. except Mr. Know_It_All here.

The SLoT says so. As time approaches infinity all object will equilibrate. There is no getting around this. So matter and energy cannot be an eternal source. Matter and energy must have a beginning and the only way matter and energy can be created is if the net energy of the universe is zero which means the universe must be closed.

So perhaps matter and energy are not "an eternal source." See my thumb? Gee..

 

[Grumblenuts]

The matter and energy came from something

Nobody knows
It’s kind of irrelevant

Vilenkin seems essentially correct, Wald a deep thinker, but very circular so self-deluded. It clearly matters greatly to the religious. It matters to me in a sense as well. I too have my theories, but I'd like to know for sure or even just better.

Wald was an atheist, like you.

So?

So your statement it clearly matters to the religious isn't applicable.

What?

 

[JoeMoma]

 

[Grumblenuts]

Before energy and matter there existed math. That's what people like ding just can't get through their thick heads. There's a fundamental geometry to the Universe that supports everything we observe. A 3D web having an average density and no mass. There are natural limits to everything. Its mathematical properties allow for only certain states to manifest where stuff gets very big or small. From galaxies to quantum states. Countless dipoles constantly form and dissipate. All matter precipitates from the universal coupling of dielectric and magnetic fields. From pulsars to atoms. Perhaps even entire universes now and then.

 

[ding]

Because it could only be created from nothing

Says you.. so says you. How perfectly circular!

No. Says the only way that the FLoT isn't violated from creating matter. For the FLoT to not be violated the net energy of the universe must be zero. Which means the negative energy of the gravity equals or balances the positive energy of matter. Which means it must be closed otherwise there is no balancing that occurs.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

More (and a repeated Wald) circular argument. The FLoT also applies only to "isolated" systems. If, as it appears, all expanded from a point then there had to be something for it to expand into. Hungry for energy and matter. We're talking then about the exact opposite of "isolated." Wide open. Your laws of thermodynamics simply cannot apply - by definition. You also violate the hell out of the very premise by introducing, not just something from nothing, but way more than you end up with, rationalizing away the excess by conveniently introducing cancelling antimatter and so forth..

"energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That's your law. Start owning it or forget it.

Two separate things; 1. An open system wouldn't stop expanding so the OP is flawed; 2. the universe had to be a closed system to be created from nothing. There is no other possible explanation. No one besides you is arguing for an open system.

And you aren't arguing against me. You are arguing against Vilenkin. So in reality you are saying Vilenkin has violated the laws of thermodynamics, even though he has shown how the universe could be created from nothing because in a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. Whereas you have no explanation for how the universe began being an open system. You ask what did the universe expand into? A vacuum. The same as every other universe expanded into if they exist. The same way every other universe was created from nothing if they exist. I think I'll go with Vilenkin, instead of some google scholar who doesn't understand what he is googling.

I haven't heard anyone argue the universe wasn't created with nearly equal amounts of particles and anti-particles. The cosmic background radiation is proof that was the case and also corroborates the remaining matter particles left over from the particle/anti-particle annihilations which is what caused the universe to expand in the first place. Which is another thing you can't explain; why the universe expanded in the first place.

The matter-antimatter asymmetry problem | CERN

home.cern

.

Why Is There More Matter Than Antimatter?

A new experiment at the world’s most powerful particle collider sheds light on an enduring cosmic mystery

www.scientificamerican.com

Why is the universe made up almost exclusively of matter? Neutrinos may hold the key

Rochester physicists have made a major stride in solving an age-old physics mystery.

www.rochester.edu

What Was It Like When We Lost The Last Of Our Antimatter?

The Universe was born matter-antimatter symmetric. Here's what happened when the last of our antimatter disappeared.

www.forbes.com