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# Time yet to reconsider "the arrow of time"?

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
What happened to your Bernie avatar? It was perfect for 2016 and you. I can see why you want to go backward in time.
I presume Bernie has just worn out and given up. A real shame. Not me.
Entropy and thermodynamics have to do with heat flow causing energy transfer. This is due to temperature differences in parts of the universe. As you know, entropy increases when temperature differences cause heat to flow from a hot place to a cold place. They have nothing to do with time direction. At least, you're not practicing science is atheism.
"Heat flow" is more complicated in "the universe" than it seems on Earth. It's not simply a matter of "temperature differences." The entire EM spectrum gets involved out there..

#### ding

##### Confront reality
The arrow of time is the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the second law of thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time. Entropy can be thought of as a measure of microscopic disorder; thus the second law implies that time is asymmetrical with respect to the amount of order in an isolated system: as a system advances through time, it becomes more statistically disordered. This asymmetry can be used empirically to distinguish between future and past, though measuring entropy does not accurately measure time. Also, in an open system, entropy can decrease with time.
With that in mind, let's presume here that the "Universe is Not Expanding After All" (or may not be) and that no practical system can be truly "isolated" or "closed" in reality. Does entropy really force time to go one-way? What if the Universe began shrinking?
But it is without any doubt.

But is has to be.

Yes.

Then time would still be going forward.

Since things happen, and that is necessary for the structure of matter (the spinning of the electron and the vibration of quanta), then time can only go forward otherwise events would be undone making the fabric of space impossible.

You cannot violate the space time matrix yet still expect it to stand while events unravel. It doesn't work that way. Instead, the only option is to travel back along the timeline by skips and hops (a warp) with your own timeline and the places you skip to still moving forward as well while the actual net universal timeline itself never stops moving forward.
Very well said.

#### ding

##### Confront reality
What happened to your Bernie avatar? It was perfect for 2016 and you. I can see why you want to go backward in time.
I presume Bernie has just worn out and given up. A real shame. Not me.
Entropy and thermodynamics have to do with heat flow causing energy transfer. This is due to temperature differences in parts of the universe. As you know, entropy increases when temperature differences cause heat to flow from a hot place to a cold place. They have nothing to do with time direction. At least, you're not practicing science is atheism.
"Heat flow" is more complicated in "the universe" than it seems on Earth. It's not simply a matter of "temperature differences." The entire EM spectrum gets involved out there..
Are you saying that heat does not flow from warmer objects to cooler objects?

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
So an open system that has energy added to it can have it's usable energy increased by the addition of energy from outside the system.
Right. The entropy is therefore decreased. The "order" is increased. In reality, all systems are open. Without the Sun there would be no life on Earth. There was virtually nothing in the beginning. Now there are galaxies galore. Order from nothing.

How can one seriously conclude "that there are no 100% efficient transactions between matter and energy."? It's a never ending exchange. Energy and matter are always being created and destroyed.

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
What happened to your Bernie avatar? It was perfect for 2016 and you. I can see why you want to go backward in time.
I presume Bernie has just worn out and given up. A real shame. Not me.
Entropy and thermodynamics have to do with heat flow causing energy transfer. This is due to temperature differences in parts of the universe. As you know, entropy increases when temperature differences cause heat to flow from a hot place to a cold place. They have nothing to do with time direction. At least, you're not practicing science is atheism.
"Heat flow" is more complicated in "the universe" than it seems on Earth. It's not simply a matter of "temperature differences." The entire EM spectrum gets involved out there..
Are you saying that heat does not flow from warmer objects to cooler objects?
Obviously not. Why do I even bother? Christ on a cracker!

#### toobfreak

##### Platinum Member
It is because there are no 100% efficient thermodynamic processes.
That is so right, Ding, and a very PROFOUND STATEMENT.

Physical law demands that NO process in space-time be 100% efficient because there must always be energy devoted to (lost to) the process itself! The process is WORK and so itself must consume some of the energy. The only exception to this is in the sheer destruction of space-time itself by the pure annihilation of matter with antimatter because this is a cancellation of space-time (null void) rather than a physical process IN space-time.

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
It is because there are no 100% efficient thermodynamic processes.
That is so right, Ding, and a very PROFOUND STATEMENT.

Physical law demands that NO process in space-time be 100% efficient because there must always be energy devoted to (lost to) the process itself! The process is WORK and so itself must consume some of the energy. The only exception to this is in the sheer destruction of space-time itself by the pure annihilation of matter with antimatter because this is a cancellation of space-time (null void) rather than a physical process IN space-time.
Alternatively, "space-time" is nonsense.

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
Physical law demands
Nothing.
Scientific laws summarize the results of experiments or observations, usually within a certain range of application. In general, the accuracy of a law does not change when a new theory of the relevant phenomenon is worked out, but rather the scope of the law's application, since the mathematics or statement representing the law does not change. As with other kinds of scientific knowledge, laws do not have absolute certainty (as mathematical theorems or identities do), and it is always possible for a law to be contradicted, restricted, or extended by future observations. A law can usually be formulated as one or several statements or equations, so that it can be used to predict the outcome of an experiment, given the circumstances of the processes taking place.

#### toobfreak

##### Platinum Member
Physical law demands
Nothing.
Scientific laws summarize the results of experiments or observations, usually within a certain range of application. In general, the accuracy of a law does not change when a new theory of the relevant phenomenon is worked out, but rather the scope of the law's application, since the mathematics or statement representing the law does not change. As with other kinds of scientific knowledge, laws do not have absolute certainty (as mathematical theorems or identities do), and it is always possible for a law to be contradicted, restricted, or extended by future observations. A law can usually be formulated as one or several statements or equations, so that it can be used to predict the outcome of an experiment, given the circumstances of the processes taking place.
Get a degree in physics then you can tell me what physical law demands. Until then, not.

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
Get a degree in physics then you can tell me what physical law demands. Until then, not.
Ew, touchy touchy!

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
Thermodynamics deals with relationship of heat and energy

The universe is rapidly expanding due to dark energy

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?
That’s Easy lol
Length , width and height

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?
That’s Easy lol
Length , width and height
Those are simply coordinates, not dimensions.

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
Entropy measures a systems disorder in the form of heat . Molecules of heat

You clean your room but you actually inc entropy due to the work by heat from your body

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?
That’s Easy lol
Length , width and height
Those are simply coordinates, not dimensions.
They’re both

OP

#### Grumblenuts

##### Gold Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?
That’s Easy lol
Length , width and height
Those are simply coordinates, not dimensions.
They’re both
No, space has one dimension - space - with 3 coordinates required to locate any specific point within.

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
The arrow of time is the "one-way direction" or "asymmetry" of time. The thermodynamic arrow of time is provided by the second law of thermodynamics, which says that in an isolated system, entropy tends to increase with time. Entropy can be thought of as a measure of microscopic disorder; thus the second law implies that time is asymmetrical with respect to the amount of order in an isolated system: as a system advances through time, it becomes more statistically disordered. This asymmetry can be used empirically to distinguish between future and past, though measuring entropy does not accurately measure time. Also, in an open system, entropy can decrease with time.
With that in mind, let's presume here that the "Universe is Not Expanding After All" (or may not be) and that no practical system can be truly "isolated" or "closed" in reality. Does entropy really force time to go one-way? What if the Universe began shrinking?
Open and closed systems are a human construct to help us put things in tidy boxes. Time is not an arrow, has no symmetry or asymmetry.
Well that's the presumption I'm asking people to consider.. still, I ain't getting any younger.. You?
Of course I am. Aging isn't time.
Aging is a byproduct of entropy due to genetic mutations

#### Quasar44

##### Platinum Member
^Groucho.
Time/Space is the 4th Dimension that is created by gravity
Again, I dunno, but seems to me "Space" is logically one dimension, "Time" another (perhaps). Cartesian or polar coordinate systems being only arbitrary point location schemes. "Space" always strikes me as a nothing begging for further definition.
S and T combined for the 4th d
The first three are then?
That’s Easy lol
Length , width and height
Those are simply coordinates, not dimensions.
They’re both
No, space has one dimension - space - with 3 coordinates required to locate any specific point within.
Space has 11 Dimensions
We live only in 4

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