Thoughts on Thanksgiving and Christmas

[ding]

It occurs to me that an atheist cannot truly celebrate "Thanksgiving." Thanksgiving (the noun, not the holiday) implicitly implies some person or entity TO WHOM thanks is being given. Historically, there is no doubt that "we" are thanking God (apparently Lincoln and FDR didn't get the memo about the "wall of separation between Church and State"), but regardless, we are thanking Mother Nature or SOMETHING or SOMEONE for the gifts that we individually or collectively have benefited from - generally without meriting them. For example, natural resources, good health, a supporting family and friends, the Food & Drug Administration, and so on. To give "thanks" without having anyone or anything to give thanks TO, is absurd.

But can we wish "Merry Christmas" (or its equivalent) to an atheist? Emphatically, YES!

Christmas, in American culture, is actually TWO separate celebrations, one religious and one secular. One is the celebration of the Nativity (the birth of the God-man known to us as Jesus Christ), and the secular celebration comes down to us from the Roman celebration of the winter solstice.

We celebrate Christmas (holy day) by prayer and remembrance; we celebrate Christmas (secular holiday) with a decorated tree, gift giving, over-indulgence in food and drink, and so forth.

Unfortunately, both of these celebrations occur on the same day, and have come to have the same name - "Christmas" - a name which has profoundly religious overtones to which some non-Christian people rightly take exception. To those people, I say, "Lighten up." After all, non-Christians have learned to tolerate living in places called, "The City of Our Lady - Queen of the Angels" (Los Angeles), "Saint Francis" (San Francisco), and "The Body of Christ" (Corpus Christi). Deal with it.

Also, the figure at the vortex of the secular celebration is at least by title, a Christian "Saint." Santa Claus. Again, there is nothing religious about his role in the secular holiday, so I would say that non-believers should just ignore the name and continue to leave him milk and cookies on the eve of the Winter Solstice.

It is also unfortunate that unthinking people try to meld these two very distinct celebrations into one observation. They put a figure of the heralding Angel or a Star of David on the top of the Christmas Tree, or carefully place a creche beneath its lower limbs. And they argue about whether it is a religious holiday or a crass and destructive commercial extravaganza. It's both.

If I were Emperor of the United States, I would separate the two holidays and designate a national holiday called the "Winter Solstice" on December 21, and leave it up to Christians to celebrate the Nativity on the 25th in the manner of their own choosing. Employers, both public and private, would have to honor the W.S. holiday, but only private sector employers could also recognize the 25th, according to their own principles and union contracts. Government workers would have to work on the Nativity, or take PTO.

By all means, I wish all of you reading this a happy Thanksgiving, a festive ("merry") Winter Solstice holiday, and if you are so inclined, an appropriately holy celebration of the Nativity. And don't get them confused.

How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life.

It’s easy to be thankful when things are going well.

The challenge is being thankful when they are not.

Why would you give thanks for things that aren't going well?

There is always something to be thankful for. Even when things are going badly.

You even said it a few posts ago. Be thankful you are alive.

True enough, but I'm not thankful for the things that are going badly.

That isn’t what I said. I said when things are going badly you need to find something to be thankful for. Only then will the power your adversity holds over you be released and you may discover what it is you were supposed to learn.

 

[ding]

Not exactly. But if you give it an honest attempt you might get there eventually.

The reality is that as long as you only focus on the negative, you will never get to the part where you gain perspective which is the place where learning, healing and progressing lives.

Why do I have to be thankful for goD dumping on me to gain perspective?

You don't you can always suffer with complaint.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

I'm gonna face reality, thanks though.

I am going to face reality too. The last few years have had some dark times.

But I am still here. My children are healthy and happy. I can still go have a beer and listen to some good live music. I can still go camping and watch a sunset or sunrise. I can still spend time with the woman I love. All of those things are part of what I am thankful for.

My second wife was one of those people who always saw the worst. Never happy. It wears you down. She is still that way. But I have moved on to see the best and to be thankful for all of it.

I am usually a pretty happy guy, and I do usually see the bright side. My girlfriend is an expert at that BTW, she even thinks Mondays are the best day of the week because she has the whole week ahead of her. My dark times are in my past, where I saw and sometimes did terrible things. It's all good from here on out.

Everything is cyclical.

Nothing is as it seems.

 

[rightwinger]

It occurs to me that an atheist cannot truly celebrate "Thanksgiving." Thanksgiving (the noun, not the holiday) implicitly implies some person or entity TO WHOM thanks is being given. Historically, there is no doubt that "we" are thanking God (apparently Lincoln and FDR didn't get the memo about the "wall of separation between Church and State"), but regardless, we are thanking Mother Nature or SOMETHING or SOMEONE for the gifts that we individually or collectively have benefited from - generally without meriting them. For example, natural resources, good health, a supporting family and friends, the Food & Drug Administration, and so on. To give "thanks" without having anyone or anything to give thanks TO, is absurd.

But can we wish "Merry Christmas" (or its equivalent) to an atheist? Emphatically, YES!

Christmas, in American culture, is actually TWO separate celebrations, one religious and one secular. One is the celebration of the Nativity (the birth of the God-man known to us as Jesus Christ), and the secular celebration comes down to us from the Roman celebration of the winter solstice.

We celebrate Christmas (holy day) by prayer and remembrance; we celebrate Christmas (secular holiday) with a decorated tree, gift giving, over-indulgence in food and drink, and so forth.

Unfortunately, both of these celebrations occur on the same day, and have come to have the same name - "Christmas" - a name which has profoundly religious overtones to which some non-Christian people rightly take exception. To those people, I say, "Lighten up." After all, non-Christians have learned to tolerate living in places called, "The City of Our Lady - Queen of the Angels" (Los Angeles), "Saint Francis" (San Francisco), and "The Body of Christ" (Corpus Christi). Deal with it.

Also, the figure at the vortex of the secular celebration is at least by title, a Christian "Saint." Santa Claus. Again, there is nothing religious about his role in the secular holiday, so I would say that non-believers should just ignore the name and continue to leave him milk and cookies on the eve of the Winter Solstice.

It is also unfortunate that unthinking people try to meld these two very distinct celebrations into one observation. They put a figure of the heralding Angel or a Star of David on the top of the Christmas Tree, or carefully place a creche beneath its lower limbs. And they argue about whether it is a religious holiday or a crass and destructive commercial extravaganza. It's both.

If I were Emperor of the United States, I would separate the two holidays and designate a national holiday called the "Winter Solstice" on December 21, and leave it up to Christians to celebrate the Nativity on the 25th in the manner of their own choosing. Employers, both public and private, would have to honor the W.S. holiday, but only private sector employers could also recognize the 25th, according to their own principles and union contracts. Government workers would have to work on the Nativity, or take PTO.

By all means, I wish all of you reading this a happy Thanksgiving, a festive ("merry") Winter Solstice holiday, and if you are so inclined, an appropriately holy celebration of the Nativity. And don't get them confused.

Happy Holidays to you and yours

 

[rightwinger]

Christmas is the time we celebrate Santa’s birthday

 

[Crepitus]

I'm gonna face reality, thanks though.

And your lessons will continue to be brought back to you until you learn from them. The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint.

I have a happiness advantage. But to get to it, I have to practice being thankful, being prayerful (which is really about self reflection), confessing my sins, forgiving the sins of others and performing random acts of kindness.

What's in your wallet?

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

This was my original post here:
."How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life."

I was mocked for it, not the other way around. Who's looking for a fight my friend? Not I.

 

[ding]

And your lessons will continue to be brought back to you until you learn from them. The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint.

I have a happiness advantage. But to get to it, I have to practice being thankful, being prayerful (which is really about self reflection), confessing my sins, forgiving the sins of others and performing random acts of kindness.

What's in your wallet?

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

This was my original post here:
."How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life."

I was mocked for it, not the other way around. Who's looking for a fight my friend? Not I.

The only reason you come here is to look for fights.

 

[Crepitus]

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

This was my original post here:
."How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life."

I was mocked for it, not the other way around. Who's looking for a fight my friend? Not I.

The only reason you come here is to look for fights.

Ok kid. Have a nice night.

 

[WinterBorn]

I'm gonna face reality, thanks though.

And your lessons will continue to be brought back to you until you learn from them. The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint.

I have a happiness advantage. But to get to it, I have to practice being thankful, being prayerful (which is really about self reflection), confessing my sins, forgiving the sins of others and performing random acts of kindness.

What's in your wallet?

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

 

[Anathema]

Oh that’s right, I forgot to mention the total transformation of the house for no reason and the loss of reasonable music channels to non-stop jingoistic nonsense.

 

[G.T.]

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

This was my original post here:
."How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life."

I was mocked for it, not the other way around. Who's looking for a fight my friend? Not I.

The only reason you come here is to look for fights.

You accuse everyone who disagrees with you of that. Time to think more close to home, dude.

 

[G.T.]

Oh that’s right, I forgot to mention the total transformation of the house for no reason and the loss of reasonable music channels to non-stop jingoistic nonsense.

Cheer up man, you havent committed suicide yet so you're with us until the bitter end. Embrace the sludge. You are one with the grissle.

 

[Anathema]

Cheer up man, you havent committed suicide yet so you're with us until the bitter end. Embrace the sludge. You are one with the grissle.

I’m still here but I have no idea why. Especially this time of year. The only other time of year thst comes close to being this annoying is around my birthday.

 

[G.T.]

Cheer up man, you havent committed suicide yet so you're with us until the bitter end. Embrace the sludge. You are one with the grissle.

I’m still here but I have no idea why. Especially this time of year. The only other time of year thst comes close to being this annoying is around my birthday.

When ya get love from all the wrong places, is when you realize. ...MANNN..life is REALLY worth it

 

[ding]

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

This was my original post here:
."How about "glad-I'm-still-alive-giving"?

I don't think you have to be religious to give thanks for all the good things in your life."

I was mocked for it, not the other way around. Who's looking for a fight my friend? Not I.

The only reason you come here is to look for fights.

You accuse everyone who disagrees with you of that. Time to think more close to home, dude.

I have no doubt you believe that.

 

[ding]

And your lessons will continue to be brought back to you until you learn from them. The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint.

I have a happiness advantage. But to get to it, I have to practice being thankful, being prayerful (which is really about self reflection), confessing my sins, forgiving the sins of others and performing random acts of kindness.

What's in your wallet?

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

Agreed. Do you think he comes here to discuss ethics?

I’ve had more than enough discussions with him to know why he comes here.

 

[WinterBorn]

"The best you can hope for is to suffer without complaint"?

Lol, gloomy Outlook from.a gloomy person in a gloomy religion.

I'll pass.thanks.

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

Agreed. Do you think he comes here to discuss ethics?

I’ve had more than enough discussions with him to know why he comes here.

I have been involved in more than a few discussions in this forum. Many of them have been quite spirited. That is the point of these forums.

As far as trying to start a fight, I have probably seen more "Atheists are wrong!" threads than "Christian are wrong!" threads.

If he comes in looking for an argument, he probably finds one. It is what happens on this website.

Do you post here only looking for people to agree with you?

 

[ding]

You were the one poo pooing thankfulness, not me.

You were the one who couldn’t look past suffering to find silver linings, not me.

William James pegged you.

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

Agreed. Do you think he comes here to discuss ethics?

I’ve had more than enough discussions with him to know why he comes here.

I have been involved in more than a few discussions in this forum. Many of them have been quite spirited. That is the point of these forums.

As far as trying to start a fight, I have probably seen more "Atheists are wrong!" threads than "Christian are wrong!" threads.

If he comes in looking for an argument, he probably finds one. It is what happens on this website.

When people go looking for a fight they shouldn’t be surprised when they get one.

 

[WinterBorn]

WTF are you talking about?

I'm the guy who said I don't need goD to be thankful.

Stop projecting your religious misery on to me.

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

Agreed. Do you think he comes here to discuss ethics?

I’ve had more than enough discussions with him to know why he comes here.

I have been involved in more than a few discussions in this forum. Many of them have been quite spirited. That is the point of these forums.

As far as trying to start a fight, I have probably seen more "Atheists are wrong!" threads than "Christian are wrong!" threads.

If he comes in looking for an argument, he probably finds one. It is what happens on this website.

When people go looking for a fight they shouldn’t be surprised when they get one.

Once again, do you post here only looking for people who agree with you?

 

[Jarlaxle]

There is always something to be thankful for. Even when things are going badly.

You even said it a few posts ago. Be thankful you are alive.

Why?

 

[ding]

You come to a religious forum to mock the beliefs of others. I think you are the one who is miserable. Why else would you be looking for a fight.

The forum is Religion and Ethics. Not just religion.

Agreed. Do you think he comes here to discuss ethics?

I’ve had more than enough discussions with him to know why he comes here.

I have been involved in more than a few discussions in this forum. Many of them have been quite spirited. That is the point of these forums.

As far as trying to start a fight, I have probably seen more "Atheists are wrong!" threads than "Christian are wrong!" threads.

If he comes in looking for an argument, he probably finds one. It is what happens on this website.

When people go looking for a fight they shouldn’t be surprised when they get one.

Once again, do you post here only looking for people who agree with you?

I post here for a variety of reasons. Sometimes I am looking for a fight. So I have firsthand knowledge of what that looks like.

Many times, however, I post because I am curious about people’s basis for their beliefs. Other times I post what I believe and why I believe it.

Did that answer your question?