Those Peaceful Indians Until Whitey Showed Up

[Mushroom]

No tribe was as brutal as the Comanche

Actually, I would easily say the Lakota were worse.

Once part of the Mississippian Culture, when it imploded they were in roughly where Tennessee is today, and they started moving.

First north, until they met my ancestors in the Great Lakes region. Where they then started fighting all of the local tribes, which banded together and expelled them. Then they started to move west, attacking any tribes they ran across. Their time in the Great Lakes was roughly at the time that Spain was moving into Mexico, and they fought tribe after tribe. During this earning their nickname of "Sioux", which comes from an Algonquin word for "little rattlesnake".

By the time the US started its "westward expansion" they had moved to the Dakotas and were pushing into Montana and Wyoming. If not for the arrival of settlers, by about now they would likely be ravaging the Yakama tribes at the mouth of the Columbia before turning south. They never once made any attempt to settle down, simply thrashing any tribes in an area and attacking as much as they could before moving yet again.

The Comanche were warlike, but they were not in a perpetual migration and cracking skulls with dozens of different tribes in their movement.

 

[DudleySmith]

So, maybe it would be more correctly to call them something like American universal values?

Because they aren't universal; the Protestant work ethic was a real thing, and several economists have proven it with data. Others imitated it to greater or lesser degrees, with the caveat that many of those were far more interested in greed than in the whole moral tradition thing.

 

[DudleySmith]

Actually, I would easily say the Lakota were worse.

They built the largest empire, yes, pretty impressive in size, though numbers-wise probably the Iroquois were close; hard to judge the numbers without censuses to go by.

 

[Mushroom]

I was referring to the past, not today. Congress did not extend citizenship to all Native Americans until 1924.

Because of the treaties.

Reservations have always essentially been sub-countries inside of the US. In fact, one of the interesting things is that such citizenship works both ways.

As Residents, they could not vote. But also, they could not be drafted. They could volunteer to serve in the military, but they could not be forced to. That is a unique privilege only bestowed upon citizens. Prior to 1924, they were not "US Citizens", but citizens of their respective tribes. But as more and more were leaving the reservations the movement rose to allow them to be recognized as all other Americans were.

 

[Mushroom]

They built the largest empire, yes.

Not really. It really was only as large as their camps were at any one time. Like most tribes (especially nomadic ones), the very idea of "owning" the land was silly. But their path of destruction can be seen by following their migration. Start in around Memphis, then follow the Mississippi up until it reaches the Great Lakes. Then turn west, and continue into the Dakotas. That was about 250 years of migration. Then continue west, as once they crossed the Rocky Mountains (there forward groups were already entering the range when the "American Indian Wars" started) they likely would have followed the Snake to the Columbia. As their ancestors had followed the Mississippi.

And being a "Southern Tribe", turned south into central Oregon then into Northern California.

 

[gipper]

Actually, I would easily say the Lakota were worse.

Once part of the Mississippian Culture, when it imploded they were in roughly where Tennessee is today, and they started moving.

First north, until they met my ancestors in the Great Lakes region. Where they then started fighting all of the local tribes, which banded together and expelled them. Then they started to move west, attacking any tribes they ran across. Their time in the Great Lakes was roughly at the time that Spain was moving into Mexico, and they fought tribe after tribe. During this earning their nickname of "Sioux", which comes from an Algonquin word for "little rattlesnake".

By the time the US started its "westward expansion" they had moved to the Dakotas and were pushing into Montana and Wyoming. If not for the arrival of settlers, by about now they would likely be ravaging the Yakama tribes at the mouth of the Columbia before turning south. They never once made any attempt to settle down, simply thrashing any tribes in an area and attacking as much as they could before moving yet again.

The Comanche were warlike, but they were not in a perpetual migration and cracking skulls with dozens of different tribes in their movement.

I don’t think so. The Comanche were a small powerless tribe that originated in the Rockies of CO. When they got access to horses, they moved south to get the buffalo. They easily misplaced many tribes including the Apache, who were deathly afraid of them.
If you read the book I posted which is really a great read, you’ll read of some unbelievably brutal tactics they imposed on their enemies.
One story I recall…They came across remains of a Comanche who had been eaten by cannibals. I forget the name of the tribe, but the Comanche systematically destroyed the entire tribe.
No tribe could use rifles as effectively as the Comanche, while on horseback.

 

[Mushroom]

I don’t think so. The Comanche were a small powerless tribe that originated in the Rockies of CO. When they got access to horses, they moved south to get the buffalo. They easily misplaced many tribes including the Apache, who were deathly afraid of them.

But how many tribes did they cause problems with?

To give an idea, this is the migration of the Lakota, from around 1450 to the late 1800's.

And the thing is, they never did stop moving. The line is the majority of the band, but they were already encroaching into central Wyoming and Montana by the time they were forced onto reservations. The Comanche were a regional power, not unlike say the Romans. But the Lakota were a migratory horde, not unlike the Mongols. But while the Mongols did have dreams of conquering and taking over China (which they eventually did), the Lakota never gave any intention they wanted to settle down.

I have often wondered what they were like before the Mississippian Culture, as they were unlike any of the other tribes on the continents in that way. Most were migratory, but covered the same range over and over for centuries. Very unlike the Lakota which simply sailed where they wanted, and never settled down.

 

[gipper]

But how many tribes did they cause problems with?

To give an idea, this is the migration of the Lakota, from around 1450 to the late 1800's.

And the thing is, they never did stop moving. The line is the majority of the band, but they were already encroaching into central Wyoming and Montana by the time they were forced onto reservations. The Comanche were a regional power, not unlike say the Romans. But the Lakota were a migratory horde, not unlike the Mongols. But while the Mongols did have dreams of conquering and taking over China (which they eventually did), the Lakota never gave any intention they wanted to settle down.

I have often wondered what they were like before the Mississippian Culture, as they were unlike any of the other tribes on the continents in that way. Most were migratory, but covered the same range over and over for centuries. Very unlike the Lakota which simply sailed where they wanted, and never settled down.

The Comanche roamed all over the southwest. They raided far into Mexico. Into NM and AZ too. They controlled a vast territory including most of TX, OK, CO, and KS.

 

[Dadoalex]

You are aware are you not that syphilis originated in the Americas, right?

Seems you are underinformed.



"Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated."

"In this respect, yaws had a starting point in Central and Western Africa, spreading towards the Iberian Peninsula along with the capturing and selling of Africans as slaves, fifty years before Columbus’ voyage. "

Brief History of Syphilis

AbstractBefore the discovery of Treponema pallidum as the etiologic agent, the origins of syphilis have been the subject of several debates. Diverse therapeutic agents were employed in an attempt to cure the disease. Examining the milestones in the history ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Who the hell said they were peaceful?

I don't know that anyone has ever really claimed that, but there does seem to be this portrayal of Native Americans as these peaceful tribes of people who are at one with nature and who have been victimized by the "evil" white man for two centuries. Yes, white people came to this continent and ultimately conquered these people, right or wrong, but it's nothing that wasn't done to anyone else all over the planet, including other white people, and nothing the Native Americans hadn't already been doing to each other. White people simply did a better job of it.

 

[Mushroom]

Seems you are underinformed.



"Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated."

"In this respect, yaws had a starting point in Central and Western Africa, spreading towards the Iberian Peninsula along with the capturing and selling of Africans as slaves, fifty years before Columbus’ voyage. "

Brief History of Syphilis

AbstractBefore the discovery of Treponema pallidum as the etiologic agent, the origins of syphilis have been the subject of several debates. Diverse therapeutic agents were employed in an attempt to cure the disease. Examining the milestones in the history ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Did you read your own reference?

This theory is supported by documents belonging to Fernandez de Oviedo and Ruy Diaz de Isla, two physicians with Spanish origins who were present at the moment when Christopher Columbus returned from America. The former, sent by King Ferdinand of Spain in the New World, confirms that the disease he had encountered for the first time in Europe was familiar at that time to the indigenes who had already developed elaborated treatment methods. As for Ruy Diaz de Isla, the physician acknowledges syphilis as an “unknown disease, so far not seen and never described”, that had onset in Barcelona in 1493 and originated in Española Island (Spanish: Isla Española), a part of the Galápagos Islands. Ruy Diaz de Isla is also the one that states in a manuscript that Pinzon de Palos, the pilot of Columbus, and also other members of the crew already suffered from syphilis on their return from the New World.

Ever since, numerous opposites of the Columbian hypothesis tried to prove the pre-existence of syphilis in the Old World, by finding evidence consisting of specific lesions on skeletal remains dated before Columbus journey in America. Radiocarbon dating along with several other modern means of dating, as well as more careful examining of such remains proved that all skeletal parts with specific luetic lesions dated not before, but after 1492.

 

[Ringel05]

I don't know that anyone has ever really claimed that, but there does seem to be this portrayal of Native Americans as these peaceful tribes of people who are at one with nature and who have been victimized by the "evil" white man for two centuries. Yes, white people came to this continent and ultimately conquered these people, right or wrong, but it's nothing that wasn't done to anyone else all over the planet, including other white people, and nothing the Native Americans hadn't already been doing to each other. White people simply did a better job of it.

Kinda missed my point........... It was a rhetorical question, being a breed myself I'm pretty up on the history.

 

[Dadoalex]

Did you read your own reference?

yes.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Who the hell said they were peaceful?

We hear that bullshit all the time from the Leftists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/04/15/bones-reveal-some-truth-in-noble-savage-myth/c6a19b59-cef0-41a1-8df0-d9a59e9d02bd/

 

[Ringel05]

We hear that bullshit all the time from the Leftists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/04/15/bones-reveal-some-truth-in-noble-savage-myth/c6a19b59-cef0-41a1-8df0-d9a59e9d02bd/

Apparently you didn't read the article title............ "Noble Savage Myth". No where in the article does it propound the myth, just the opposite.

 

[Otis Mayfield]

What caused a lot of wars between tribes was the white man shoving them off the Eastern seaboard into the Midwest.

Crowding all those different tribes together was bound to cause problems and put a stress on resources.

 

[Mushroom]

What caused a lot of wars between tribes was the white man shoving them off the Eastern seaboard into the Midwest.

Oh nonsense, most were warlike long before Europeans ever arrived.

This is especially true in the Eastern half of the nation, as the Mississippian culture imploded and caused mass migrations and warfare among them decades before Columbus set sail. And most of them were still fighting hundreds of years later.

Which is very different from the tribes along the West Coast, which were never a part of or even heard of the Mississippian Culture. And we know the Mississippians were warlike, as evidence by the large numbers of fortified settlement sites in the region.

It was also never very common in the North-East, where the tribes had already started to settle down into permanent settlements and take up early agrarian lifestyles. And most of those tribes are still in the traditional homeland, having never been "moved off" as the settlers had few problems with them.

But most of the "problem tribes" had direct connections with the Mississippian Culture. And the farther you move from their influence, the more peaceful they became.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

Apparently you didn't read the article title............ "Noble Savage Myth". No where in the article does it propound the myth, just the opposite.

But, the article debunks the myth, that indeed exists, of peaceful Indians before the Europeans arrived.

 

[Ringel05]

But, the article debunks the myth, that indeed exists, of peaceful Indians before the Europeans arrived.

And I said different....... how?
As a student of history and cultural anthropology (plus my grandfather being Ojibwa) I've known all my life that Indians were just as violent as Europeans. The only ones still claiming the Noble Savage title are the few who are using it as political rhetoric, even some of my own people, I never bought into the myth.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

And I said different....... how?
As a student of history and cultural anthropology (plus my grandfather being Ojibwa) I've known all my life that Indians were just as violent as Europeans. The only ones still claiming the Noble Savage title are the few who are using it as political rhetoric, even some of my own people, I never bought into the myth.

I was explaining why I used the article.