The voting age should be raised

[del]

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

Funny you should say that A15, guess what poster is demanding I go to HIS forum and play by HIS rules?

lol!

i am demanding nothing. youi wanted pics of me and jamie, and i told you i would send you a link to our site. i did just that. what you do is then your choice. i am amazed at the powerlessness you display. yoiu wanted me to post pics in this forum, and i already told you what i would do, and did just that. i gave you what you wanted and what i told yoiui i would do. you refused to open the link. that is your choice.

are you trying to get a mod to back you, because you didn't get your way? there is a name for that. temper tantrum.

if you are going to try these silly games, you should do it behind the scenes. otherwise, i will show you to be the liar that you are.

knock yourself out, vinny, i could use a good laugh

 

[Amanda]

I always thought they made the guys who just got back from boot camp with some older guy who was always alittle wierd. never heard anything about bonuses??
I did have one guy who would call me every day, maybe he was trying to get a bonus?

Yeah a lot of guys get free leave to help their recruiter when they first get out of basic or tech school but the name of the program eludes me at the moment.

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

i am not sure if such a program was in place when i was in or not. regardless, i would not have taken advantage of it.

what i posted i read 20 years ago. things change. *shrugs*.

So in fact you have no idea if such a program ever existed but you have no problem stating it as if it did. Nice.

 

[vincubus]

Well I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion stands thus far. But I'll add my two cents.

I don't think it's right to say that an 18 year old can die for the country but can't have a say in how the country is run. The thing about voting is we each have our own reasons for voting how we do, and that choice reflects our current situation. An 18 year olds reasons shouldn't be discredited just because they're 18 and haven't had as many or the same life experiences as an older person. At 18 I think I was making more of an informed decision then most adults probably do when voting, and at 20 last November I felt the same way.

what you say is true.

one hundred years ago, 12 year old boys were considered adult, and were depended upon by their (most likely) family to help with the family farm. they understood the immediacy of their survival and knew they had a role in that. this being tasked with responsibility creates responsibility and maturity. today there is not that immediacy of survival, especially in the 'burbs. kids of 12 and on either side of that age are much more pampered, and much less likely to be tasked with being responsible, which leads to maturity. i once dated a woman who grew up early because her mom was a crack head, and the woman had to care for her mom, rather than the other way around. however, growing up early like that lacks the responsiblity as there is no model from which to draw examples for "being" save negative ones. the woman has issues, and i suspect she still does. she expressed a great deal of immaturity in her thinking.

age is the arbitrary criteria for assuming maturity, but the two shouldn't be harnessed irrevocably, especially if there is fMRI evidence to show that the brains of under 25 ppl aren't mature. i do think when considering matters of supposed importance such as deciding the direction of the nation/state/municipality, maturity rather than age should be the criteria. i say supposed because we are handed picked candidates by those who are in power (the monied elite) and so our real choices are narrowed to be almost useless.

 

[vincubus]

Funny you should say that A15, guess what poster is demanding I go to HIS forum and play by HIS rules?

lol!

i am demanding nothing. youi wanted pics of me and jamie, and i told you i would send you a link to our site. i did just that. what you do is then your choice. i am amazed at the powerlessness you display. yoiu wanted me to post pics in this forum, and i already told you what i would do, and did just that. i gave you what you wanted and what i told yoiui i would do. you refused to open the link. that is your choice.

are you trying to get a mod to back you, because you didn't get your way? there is a name for that. temper tantrum.

if you are going to try these silly games, you should do it behind the scenes. otherwise, i will show you to be the liar that you are.

knock yourself out, vinny, i could use a good laugh

i already have. smile.

now, since i know you post little content to me, i haveno further use for you. and you get to have the last word. it is obvious you need your ego stroked. Lol!

 

[Amanda]

There are no bonuses ... that poster was talking out of their rear end.

Funny you should say that A15, guess what poster is demanding I go to HIS forum and play by HIS rules?

lol!

i am demanding nothing. youi wanted pics of me and jamie, and i told you i would send you a link to our site. i did just that. what you do is then your choice. i am amazed at the powerlessness you display. yoiu wanted me to post pics in this forum, and i already told you what i would do, and did just that. i gave you what you wanted and what i told yoiui i would do. you refused to open the link. that is your choice.

are you trying to get a mod to back you, because you didn't get your way? there is a name for that. temper tantrum.

You are so clever! I've never seen someone demonstrate so many ways the pot can call the kettle black. With nearly every post here you manage to BE exactly what you accuse others of. You could be on a reality show called Narcissists Gone Wild.

if you are going to try these silly games, you should do it behind the scenes. otherwise, i will show you to be the liar that you are.

Oh sweet baby Jesus! I laugh when I read your posts, but that last bit left me with my sides hurting. You will "prove" something? Yea? Oh stop it, you're killing me.

 

[del]

lol!

i am demanding nothing. youi wanted pics of me and jamie, and i told you i would send you a link to our site. i did just that. what you do is then your choice. i am amazed at the powerlessness you display. yoiu wanted me to post pics in this forum, and i already told you what i would do, and did just that. i gave you what you wanted and what i told yoiui i would do. you refused to open the link. that is your choice.

are you trying to get a mod to back you, because you didn't get your way? there is a name for that. temper tantrum.

if you are going to try these silly games, you should do it behind the scenes. otherwise, i will show you to be the liar that you are.

knock yourself out, vinny, i could use a good laugh

i already have. smile.

now, since i know you post little content to me, i haveno further use for you. and you get to have the last word. it is obvious you need your ego stroked. Lol!

trust me, if i needed my ego stroked, i'd get someone better than a lying poseur like you to do it. *smile*

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

Second, some teens are not educated enough to be able to be independent in their thinking styles and maybe influenced by the media

*facepalm* The millions of idiots at night who watch Hannity, O'Reilly, and Olbermann or listen to the likes of Rush Limbaugh during the day lack the capacity for independent thought that any self respecting person would pride themselves.

I think your underestimating the mental abilities and political involvement of an 18 year old and overestimating those of a 30, 40, or 50 year old relative to that 18 year old.

 

[Amanda]

Well I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion stands thus far. But I'll add my two cents.

I don't think it's right to say that an 18 year old can die for the country but can't have a say in how the country is run. The thing about voting is we each have our own reasons for voting how we do, and that choice reflects our current situation. An 18 year olds reasons shouldn't be discredited just because they're 18 and haven't had as many or the same life experiences as an older person. At 18 I think I was making more of an informed decision then most adults probably do when voting, and at 20 last November I felt the same way.

what you say is true.

one hundred years ago, 12 year old boys were considered adult, and were depended upon by their (most likely) family to help with the family farm. they understood the immediacy of their survival and knew they had a role in that. this being tasked with responsibility creates responsibility and maturity. today there is not that immediacy of survival, especially in the 'burbs. kids of 12 and on either side of that age are much more pampered, and much less likely to be tasked with being responsible, which leads to maturity. i once dated a woman who grew up early because her mom was a crack head, and the woman had to care for her mom, rather than the other way around. however, growing up early like that lacks the responsiblity as there is no model from which to draw examples for "being" save negative ones. the woman has issues, and i suspect she still does. she expressed a great deal of immaturity in her thinking.

age is the arbitrary criteria for assuming maturity, but the two shouldn't be harnessed irrevocably, especially if there is fMRI evidence to show that the brains of under 25 ppl aren't mature. i do think when considering matters of supposed importance such as deciding the direction of the nation/state/municipality, maturity rather than age should be the criteria. i say supposed because we are handed picked candidates by those who are in power (the monied elite) and so our real choices are narrowed to be almost useless.

Now you're learning. Put that "if" in there, then you can assert all day long and won't have to offer a shred of proof. Of course, no 1 will believe you, but at least you won't look quite as foolish.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Taxes people. From the time a kid is old enough to take a job mowing lawns the government taxes him. Every comic book and ball glove is taxed. Then he gets a car. If he was a smart kid and saved his money and bought it himself, he gets taxed. Everytime he buys gas, he is taxed. If he goes to work full time when he gets out of high school, he gets taxed. Every week his pay check gets hit just like anyone.

When you're old enough to have a job and pay taxes, don't you all think you're old enough to vote? That whole little thing about taxation without representation was pretty important at one time aroud here.

 

[The Illusion]

Most teens up until the age of 25 go on emotional response and they have been proven to get the emotion wrong in the first place. What makes us think that they can make a capable decision regarding politics when they cant even get emotion correct. Studies, which I will cite and show, have shown that the decision making skills of a teen are not as mature as an adult. The portion of the brain that makes those decisions is significantly smaller in a teens brain than that of an adult. See below:

This is a really nice picture highlighting the fact that in an adolescent brain or a younger brain, the relative activation of the prefrontal region or this anterior front part of the brain is less it is in the adults. But in contrast to that, the more emotional region or that gut response region has more activation compared to the adult. So the relationship between these two regions is very different. And we think that that's been a very important finding in terms of understanding adolescent behavior.

One of the things that we noticed in doing this experiment was, not only did the adolescents show this emotional response or this increased response, but they did this at the same time that they did not correctly identify the emotion. And that was very interesting to us, because it's clear that the brain was responding, but the way it was responding didn't have to do with the accuracy of the affect or the emotional expression. The adolescents typically said that they saw shock or confusion or sadness. But they did not correctly identify fear 100 percent of the time. This is in contrast to the adults, who did find that.

So 100 percent of the adults correctly identified the emotion of fear?

Right. In this pilot study, 100 percent of the adults did actually identify the emotion as fear.

And the teenagers?

Only about half.

What does your work tell you about young teenagers?

One of the implications of this work is that the brain is responding differently to the outside world in teenagers compared to adults. And in particular, with emotional information, the teenager's brain may be responding with more of a gut reaction than an executive or more thinking kind of response. And if that's the case, then one of the things that you expect is that you'll have more of an impulsive behavioral response, instead of a necessarily thoughtful or measured kind of response.

What does this mean for teens' relationship with their parents and teachers?

One of the interesting things about the findings are that they suggest that the teenagers are not able to correctly read all the feelings in the adult face. So that would suggest to us that when they're relating to their parents or to their friends' parents or to their teachers, they may be misperceiving or misunderstanding some of the feelings that we have as adults; that is, they see anger when there isn't anger, or sadness when there isn't sadness. And if that's the case, then clearly their own behavior is not going to match that of the adult. So you'll see miscommunication, both in terms of what they think the adult is feeling, but also what the response should then be to that.

Read More Here: frontline: inside the teenage brain: interviews: deborah yurgelun-todd | PBS

This shows that a teen can be confused when it comes to politics as well. They cannot correctly identify emotions or make decisions that are not emotional based. Adults can. This could impair the teens ability to make a sound choice in the voting which could lead to misunderstandings and get them someone in office that they regret.

Jamie

 

[nodoginnafight]

I think your underestimating the mental abilities and political involvement of an 18 year old and overestimating those of a 30, 40, or 50 year old relative to that 18 year old

.


So true

 

[rightwinger]

Well I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion stands thus far. But I'll add my two cents.

I don't think it's right to say that an 18 year old can die for the country but can't have a say in how the country is run. The thing about voting is we each have our own reasons for voting how we do, and that choice reflects our current situation. An 18 year olds reasons shouldn't be discredited just because they're 18 and haven't had as many or the same life experiences as an older person. At 18 I think I was making more of an informed decision then most adults probably do when voting, and at 20 last November I felt the same way.

what you say is true.

one hundred years ago, 12 year old boys were considered adult, and were depended upon by their (most likely) family to help with the family farm. they understood the immediacy of their survival and knew they had a role in that. this being tasked with responsibility creates responsibility and maturity. today there is not that immediacy of survival, especially in the 'burbs. kids of 12 and on either side of that age are much more pampered, and much less likely to be tasked with being responsible, which leads to maturity. i once dated a woman who grew up early because her mom was a crack head, and the woman had to care for her mom, rather than the other way around. however, growing up early like that lacks the responsiblity as there is no model from which to draw examples for "being" save negative ones. the woman has issues, and i suspect she still does. she expressed a great deal of immaturity in her thinking.

age is the arbitrary criteria for assuming maturity, but the two shouldn't be harnessed irrevocably, especially if there is fMRI evidence to show that the brains of under 25 ppl aren't mature. i do think when considering matters of supposed importance such as deciding the direction of the nation/state/municipality, maturity rather than age should be the criteria. i say supposed because we are handed picked candidates by those who are in power (the monied elite) and so our real choices are narrowed to be almost useless.

100 years ago, that 12 year old on the farm was completely isolated from the world at large. With the draft in WWI, farmboys got their first look at a world outside their local community. These boys were completely ignorant of modern conveniences and national and global politics.
A 12 year old today has instant access to information around the globe. TV, internet, newspapers all provide instant, up to date information. A 12 year old with internet access has access to more information than was available in all the libraries in his state.
If you are going to use MRIs to assess brain function, than you will also need to deny the vote to those over 65

 

[vincubus]

Well I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know where the discussion stands thus far. But I'll add my two cents.

I don't think it's right to say that an 18 year old can die for the country but can't have a say in how the country is run. The thing about voting is we each have our own reasons for voting how we do, and that choice reflects our current situation. An 18 year olds reasons shouldn't be discredited just because they're 18 and haven't had as many or the same life experiences as an older person. At 18 I think I was making more of an informed decision then most adults probably do when voting, and at 20 last November I felt the same way.

what you say is true.

one hundred years ago, 12 year old boys were considered adult, and were depended upon by their (most likely) family to help with the family farm. they understood the immediacy of their survival and knew they had a role in that. this being tasked with responsibility creates responsibility and maturity. today there is not that immediacy of survival, especially in the 'burbs. kids of 12 and on either side of that age are much more pampered, and much less likely to be tasked with being responsible, which leads to maturity. i once dated a woman who grew up early because her mom was a crack head, and the woman had to care for her mom, rather than the other way around. however, growing up early like that lacks the responsiblity as there is no model from which to draw examples for "being" save negative ones. the woman has issues, and i suspect she still does. she expressed a great deal of immaturity in her thinking.

age is the arbitrary criteria for assuming maturity, but the two shouldn't be harnessed irrevocably, especially if there is fMRI evidence to show that the brains of under 25 ppl aren't mature. i do think when considering matters of supposed importance such as deciding the direction of the nation/state/municipality, maturity rather than age should be the criteria. i say supposed because we are handed picked candidates by those who are in power (the monied elite) and so our real choices are narrowed to be almost useless.

100 years ago, that 12 year old on the farm was completely isolated from the world at large. With the draft in WWI, farmboys got their first look at a world outside their local community. These boys were completely ignorant of modern conveniences and national and global politics.
A 12 year old today has instant access to information around the globe. TV, internet, newspapers all provide instant, up to date information. A 12 year old with internet access has access to more information than was available in all the libraries in his state.
If you are going to use MRIs to assess brain function, than you will also need to deny the vote to those over 65

you say that the doughboys were completely ignorant of modern conveniences and global politics as if it was a bad thing! Lol!

sophistication isn' t the same as maturity. one is a function of knowledge, and the other a function of experience which properly guided can lead to wisdom.

the elderly might be impaired in their memory, but not in their wisdom.

i am arguing against myself here. when i was 16, i was considered more mature than many adults twice my age (and i was concerned about being arrested for being an illegal adult). but considering many adults' behaviour, that really didn't say much.

 

[rightwinger]

i am arguing against myself here. when i was 16, i was considered more mature than many adults twice my age (and i was concerned about being arrested for being an illegal adult). but considering many adults' behaviour, that really didn't say much.

What happened to your maturity since that time?

 

[vincubus]

i am arguing against myself here. when i was 16, i was considered more mature than many adults twice my age (and i was concerned about being arrested for being an illegal adult). but considering many adults' behaviour, that really didn't say much.

What happened to your maturity since that time?

cant attack the content, so must attack the poster.

ad hominem.

 

[Amanda]

...
This shows that a teen can be confused when it comes to politics as well.

No it doesn't, that' YOUR conclusion.

They cannot correctly identify emotions or make decisions that are not emotional based.

That wasn't conclusively proven.

Adults can.

THAT is definitely not proven.

This could impair the teens ability to make a sound choice in the voting which could lead to misunderstandings and get them someone in office that they regret.

Anything could. You could read things on a message board. You could watch political ads on TV. You could talk to friends or family.


Did they show adults teen faces and ask them if they could figure out what the teen was feeling? Or was the study biased? Was there any context or just a series of still images?

Are some teens really immature? You betcha. Do you know why? Adults. Without autonomy there is little to no reason to be mature. I would have happily made my own way in the world by the time I was 15 or 16 but I wasn't allowed to. Why? Adults. Adults decided I wasn't old enough to sign a rental agreement. Adults decided I couldn't be employed in a profession where I could make enough money to support myself. Etc. Etc. Etc.

You want to complain about teens being immature and then you go on to offer a solution that would help keep them that way even longer.

 

[Amanda]

i am arguing against myself here. when i was 16, i was considered more mature than many adults twice my age (and i was concerned about being arrested for being an illegal adult). but considering many adults' behaviour, that really didn't say much.

What happened to your maturity since that time?

cant attack the content, so must attack the poster.

ad hominem.

Who would know that better than you?

 

[rightwinger]

i am arguing against myself here. when i was 16, i was considered more mature than many adults twice my age (and i was concerned about being arrested for being an illegal adult). but considering many adults' behaviour, that really didn't say much.

What happened to your maturity since that time?

cant attack the content, so must attack the poster.

ad hominem.

Sorry Vinny..
You just threw up a softball and I had to swing for it

 

[Amanda]

What happened to your maturity since that time?

cant attack the content, so must attack the poster.

ad hominem.

Sorry Vinny..
You just threw up a softball and I had to swing for it

Don't be sorry, ad hominem's are Vinny's stock in trade. Example: I admitted I have used me in a bikini as an avatar... Vinny went all kinds of apeshit. He implied that doing such a thing said a lot about me and/or why I was here. Now ask yourself, what does that have to do with anything? Nothing at all. And that's what Vinny brings to the discussion: Nothing at all.

 

[Emma]

People think their children come out being better persons.. I say its because of poor parenting.

Excuse me?

Theres no "excuse me" about it. If it takes the military to make someone a better person, Id say that the parenting of that child/person was pretty god damn poor. The military creates Jar heads.

Jamie

"Excuse me" because of my post above yours. Were you directing that toward me?