The Virus in Washington DC

[PatekPhilippe]

I agree with your sentiments here, Cali. However, it is because the "Tea Party movement" is not one voice, and represents way too many agendas, that they cannot be considered a viable tool to reshape our government. The kooks associated with them only help to detract from any credibility other members may achieve.

See what I mean...I guess no one read my post

What about the kooks in the Congress as we speak!! They have a voice and make policy!!!!

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

 

[Navy1960]

Navy...good point. However, by "bringing home the bacon" so to say, is how many of our elected officials DO represent the people that vote for them. Pet projects add local jobs and money to their consituents back home and I get this. However, if we would just be able to give the President line item veto power, this could be better managed. Pet projects are bad, regardless of who benefits, IMHO.

I don't mind the bringing home the bacon so much as I do things like spending for a district then at the same time advocating a postiion of cutting elsewhere. Sort of the NIMBY principle. Want a real good example of that , take a look at the C-17, that aircraft is perhaps the most pork laden aircraft ever to be approved by Congress. The USAF as told congress over and over again, we do NOT need anymore C-17's and yet congress keeps approving additional aircraft. The F-22 was cancelled because of costs and the justification was the F-35 would be a better fit, well, the F-35 as of just a few weeks ago was slowed down on purchasing because of the need for money elsewhere and budget concerns. (see C-17). As I said Congress has been doing this for years, pick the project, doesn't matter, pick the party. The only people who are going to really change this are the voters, and they are NOT going to change it ever if they keep voting for the same people year in and year out and then cross their fingers and hope it changes.

We are in complete agreement here.
The F-22 is a poor design that requires somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 maintanence hours for every 1 hour of flight. If the F-35 is no better, THAT project should be cancelled as well. As for the C-17....that contract should have gone to AirBus anyway.

laughs, you don't want to get me started on a side topic like that, I'm very much a fan of the F-22 and and F-35 which by the way are very different platforms in terms of mission and design roles. As for the C-17, it is a reliable aircraft and heavily used by the USAF it's just in terms of "pork" the airforce airlift capability does not call for additional C-17's and congress ordered them for them anyway. Whats Airbus going to compete with the C-17 with the A-400M? they have had so many issues with avionics software on that aircraft it took 3 years to get the aircraft to make it's first flight a few months ago. Perhaps you were thinking of the Tanker competetion? In short though, DoD is one of those departments in Govt. that shows what congress is really good at, telling the public one thing and doing something else.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Grass roots movements don't start out all prim and proper. So many of these people have never been motivated to get themselves that involved in the process. They are trying to get the attention of Washington, and so far the establishment has tried to ignore them. If Mass is an indicator of what this movement can accomplish, and the politicians start taking some real notice, then they've achieved a significant short-term goal.

Hey, and stop judging people like some snotty high school *****.

Sherry....you were doing good until you called my a snotty high school *****. It is immature asshats like you that make the Tea Party as unviable as they already are. *****.

Blah, blah, blah ya fuckin' whinah. I don't give a shit if I pass your test and am considered doing "good" by you, but here's a hug anyway. You're too damn sensitive if that little observation sent you over the edge.

Yep...Saul Alinsky: When challenged on a point the liberal makes, the liberal must immediately lable them a kook, ***** or hyper-partisan as the case allows.

 

[California Girl]

get rid a shit like you

Namvet, you're a cool guy and I get where you are coming from. But.... I also think VaYank (and he and I have had some knock down square up arguments) has a valid point. It would be great if you two could put the partisan arguments to the side for one thread and see if we can find some common ground that the intelligent posters here can agree on. VaYank is one of those smart posters.... so are you. I think you two could find common ground if you both looked hard for it. For one, you both agree with me - some extent - that the system is broke and we need to fix it. Now, if we can agree on that, maybe we can agree how to fix it.

Not likely, have you been paying attention? VaYank SUPPORTS ignoring everything Obama has done in the past year and everything the Democrats have done on the Health Care Bill. He does NOT support getting rid of DEMOCRATS just Republicans. He is part and parcel of the problem. Liberal Democrat first and always.

I know VaYank. He and I have done a few rounds of verbal punching too. However.... He and I can agree that we need to fix what's broke.

I don't see that VaYank is any more partisan that I can be at times. I lean right so I defend those views that match mine. VaYank and I don't agree on much.... but.... Instead of constantly going around and around whining about who is responsible for what ill that faces us.... we really need to stop and take a cold hard non partisan honest look at our system and see if we can - as AMERICANS - find a way to fix it. Not blame each other.

 

[namvet]

Cali-G...you are exactly right. I want to believe your message is at the heart of the Tea Party movement. However, the Tea Partiers are not, and will not be taken seriously because they have too many members that well, honestly look and act like lunatics. So, this is not the way to do it. The question I pose to the board, is, HOW do we accomplish what you suggest?

get rid a shit like you

Namvet, you're a cool guy and I get where you are coming from. But.... I also think VaYank (and he and I have had some knock down square up arguments) has a valid point. It would be great if you two could put the partisan arguments to the side for one thread and see if we can find some common ground that the intelligent posters here can agree on. VaYank is one of those smart posters.... so are you. I think you two could find common ground if you both looked hard for it. For one, you both agree with me - some extent - that the system is broke and we need to fix it. Now, if we can agree on that, maybe we can agree how to fix it.

and as you see he come's on here blaming the tea party for all of America's problems. is this productive??? no. there is no bridge between us. never will be.

but i will tell you this. with the bark on. I see what your saying. but. DC stinks like a whore house at low tide. always has always will. anyone that goes there is instantly corrupt. understand. neither party gives a rat ass about us. they both go behind closed doors and make deals. what are they taking about in there??? you and me. our lives, our money, our way of life, our freedom, our families. that's the machine they built.
mr Brown gave me the impression he's gonna blow it all up. not hardly. he's gonna find out the hard way how this machine runs and how much bigger it is than him.
maybe im to pessimistic??? well ive watched this crap for years. and there's no change. for me its the same ole wine in a brand new bottle.

 

[California Girl]

get rid a shit like you

Namvet, you're a cool guy and I get where you are coming from. But.... I also think VaYank (and he and I have had some knock down square up arguments) has a valid point. It would be great if you two could put the partisan arguments to the side for one thread and see if we can find some common ground that the intelligent posters here can agree on. VaYank is one of those smart posters.... so are you. I think you two could find common ground if you both looked hard for it. For one, you both agree with me - some extent - that the system is broke and we need to fix it. Now, if we can agree on that, maybe we can agree how to fix it.

and as you see he come's on here blaming the tea party for all of America's problems. is this productive??? no. there is no bridge between us. never will be.

but i will tell you this. with the bark on. I see what your saying. but. DC stinks like a whore house at low tide. always has always will. anyone that goes there is instantly corrupt. understand. neither party gives a rat ass about us. they both go behind closed doors and make deals. what are they taking about in there??? you and me. our lives, our money, our way of life, our freedom, our families. that's the machine they built.
mr Brown gave me the impression he's gonna blow it all up. not hardly. he's gonna find out the hard way how this machine runs and how much bigger it is than him.
maybe im to pessimistic??? well ive watched this crap for years. and there's no change. for me its the same ole wine in a brand new bottle.

Maybe I'm still young enough to look for the common ground and idealistic enough to believe that - if enough of us were to say 'this far and no farther', then we could change things.

I believe in the American way - even when that way is not my way. I think that most Americans, whether left or right, could see the benefits of that.

Brown summed it up as 'there are now 41 41st votes in congress' - it is not about him - it is about all of them. Is Brown a decent man? Probably yes... will he be after a few months inside the machine? Probably not. THAT is what we have to stop.

 

[California Girl]

See what I mean...I guess no one read my post

What about the kooks in the Congress as we speak!! They have a voice and make policy!!!!

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Could you not, instead of jimping at VaYank, just try and explain how you see the TEA parties and allow him the opportunity to find out why you support them. None of us are perfect and God KNOWS that I jump at people too.... but try to explain it instead of jumping.

Personally, I think people call 'kook' at the TEA parties while having code pink in their camp should possibly not be so quick to label others as 'kooks by association'...However, I'm trying to get some idea of whether the left and the right could find common ground.

I still think we can, if enough of us want to.

 

[VaYank5150]

See what I mean...I guess no one read my post

What about the kooks in the Congress as we speak!! They have a voice and make policy!!!!

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Could you not, instead of jimping at VaYank, just try and explain how you see the TEA parties and allow him the opportunity to find out why you support them. None of us are perfect and God KNOWS that I jump at people too.... but try to explain it instead of jumping.

Personally, I think people call 'kook' at the TEA parties while having code pink in their camp should possibly not be so quick to label others as 'kooks by association'...However, I'm trying to get some idea of whether the left and the right could find common ground.

I still think we can, if enough of us want to.

When you have a person come right out and call them kooks.....There's nothing I can say that will change his opinion of the Tea Party Movement participants...nothing. You can't compromise with the left Cali Girl....you know that better than anyone. With them you are either with us OR labled and tucked away in a little cubbyhole for future abuse as politics dictate. I made a post on page 2 that addressed VaYanks labelling everyone...

What I find quite disingenuous is the fact that just because, in someone's opinion, you have a few people who act a little strange in a group like wearing some Lipton teabags on a hat they don't deserve a voice and are labled as kooks. The negative image perpetrated by the left on the Tea Party movement is evidence that they viewed them as a threat. So instead of challenging their ideas with debate and discussion they attacked them personally and labeled them a term associated with a particular sexual technique. Pathetic and evidence of the stupidity and immaturity of the current leaders of the progressive liberal movement.

Now...during several news conferences yesterday we heard the Democrat leaders and WH Press Secretary come out with their spin on the anger in the country.... I almost shit my pants because I was laughing so hard when Gibbs said the anger was directed at Republicans and Bush...in other words they are so out of touch with America that they were too stupid to realize the anger was DIRECTED AT THEM and their progressive agenda.

America DOES NOT WANT PROGRESSIVE REFORMS. We want jobs, security and a Congress THAT WORKS FOR THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!

The response I got was an insult as I'm no hyper-partisan....

 

[PatekPhilippe]

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

Why are Tea Party persons Kooks?

 

[VaYank5150]

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

Why are Tea Party persons Kooks?

How many times do I have to explain why IT IS MY OPINION that these folks are kooks? Please see page 3 of this thread.

Now, to NamVets complaint...I never said that the Tea Partiers were the problem. I was merely trying to point out that IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, too many people see the Tea Partiers as a viable avenue to force change. Since many people (myself included) see the Tea Party movement as too fractured, too hateful, too interested in their own personal agendas (no single message), and littered with kooks, I do not believe they are a viable avenue to force change in our government. Hence, I posed a question to the entire board asking for opinions on how we DO force change. End of story.

 

[California Girl]

This is what happens when you are a known hyper-partisan.

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

VaYank... Please do check out the TEA party movement, go to the various TEA party websites and find out from THEM why they do what they do. Don't take the media's word for who they are. The MSM doesn't have a clue what the TEA parties are about... they label them as racists, rednecks, kooks, teabaggers, lunatic fringe, etc. They most certainly are not. My family attended TEA parties in CA. where the majority of people there were democrats. Many were black or latinos. The media don't like them because they don't want anything rocking the status quo boat.

Learn about them before you label them because I can guarantee you one thing. The people that attend the TEA parties are just like you. Sure they attract a few oddballs - so what? So does the DNC and the GOP.... and we elect some of the oddballs!

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

Why are Tea Party persons Kooks?

How many times do I have to explain why IT IS MY OPINION that these folks are kooks? Please see page 3 of this thread.

Now, to NamVets complaint...I never said that the Tea Partiers were the problem. I was merely trying to point out that IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, too many people see the Tea Partiers as a viable avenue to force change. Since many people (myself included) see the Tea Party movement as too fractured, too hateful, too interested in their own personal agendas (no single message), and littered with kooks, I do not believe they are a viable avenue to force change in our government. Hence, I posed a question to the entire board asking for opinions on how we DO force change. End of story.

Exactly my point...it's your opinion and certainly entitled to it. There is nothing I can say that will change your opinion on that and I respect that. There is no compromising on this, no middle ground. I understand.

Now...what say you Cali Girl? I'm sure there are literally hundreds of issues that there will be NO compromise on. That's politics 2010.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Then you appear to have tunnel vision and will most likely not find any group to meet your expectations. In a movement with that many numbers, it is unreasonable not to expect a few loons to crash the party. That doesn't mean the rest should pack it up and go home.

There are people on the far left and far right who have had up similar signs in the past VaYank. Where is your outrage at the left I only see your outrage going toward the right. 3 examples of each

The left:
Kill Bush
Bush is a Nazi
Republicans are racists

The right:
God hates you (outside abortion clinics)
Obama is a muslim non-citizen
Bury Obamacare with Kennedy

You're part of the problem if your response to criticism is to trawl out a bunch of examples from the 'other side'....

Knock off the partisanship and tell me how you think we move forward - don't criticize, compromise.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Then you appear to have tunnel vision and will most likely not find any group to meet your expectations. In a movement with that many numbers, it is unreasonable not to expect a few loons to crash the party. That doesn't mean the rest should pack it up and go home.

There are people on the far left and far right who have had up similar signs in the past VaYank. Where is your outrage at the left I only see your outrage going toward the right. 3 examples of each

The left:
Kill Bush
Bush is a Nazi
Republicans are racists

The right:
God hates you (outside abortion clinics)
Obama is a muslim non-citizen
Bury Obamacare with Kennedy

I don't give a shit about what anyone did in the past. Cali asked a question about moving forward. I pointed out that the Tea Party movement is not a legitimate option and asked for additional options, MOVING FORWARD. Get it?

Taking off partisan blinders is part of moving forward...get it?

 

[California Girl]

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

Why are Tea Party persons Kooks?

How many times do I have to explain why IT IS MY OPINION that these folks are kooks? Please see page 3 of this thread.

Now, to NamVets complaint...I never said that the Tea Partiers were the problem. I was merely trying to point out that IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, too many people see the Tea Partiers as a viable avenue to force change. Since many people (myself included) see the Tea Party movement as too fractured, too hateful, too interested in their own personal agendas (no single message), and littered with kooks, I do not believe they are a viable avenue to force change in our government. Hence, I posed a question to the entire board asking for opinions on how we DO force change. End of story.

They aren't hateful.... they are undoubtedly angry. If you want to understand them look at their name..... TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY. For the most part they are middle America. They are just hard working people who see their taxes as being used to fund 'pet projects', special interests, and generally wasted while they struggle to pay their bills and put food on the table.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Hyper-partisan as much as you VaYank...now address the question and quit deflecting.

Those kooks in Congress are exactly the folks that Cali is talking about, so perhaps I don't completely understand your question, PP? My apologies to Cali if my side rant about the Tea Partiers has somewhat hijacked her well intentioned thread.

VaYank... Please do check out the TEA party movement, go to the various TEA party websites and find out from THEM why they do what they do. Don't take the media's word for who they are. The MSM doesn't have a clue what the TEA parties are about... they label them as racists, rednecks, kooks, teabaggers, lunatic fringe, etc. They most certainly are not. My family attended TEA parties in CA. where the majority of people there were democrats. Many were black or latinos. The media don't like them because they don't want anything rocking the status quo boat.

Learn about them before you label them because I can guarantee you one thing. The people that attend the TEA parties are just like you. Sure they attract a few oddballs - so what? So does the DNC and the GOP.... and we elect some of the oddballs!

He doesn't want to as he is convinced his opinion is spot on, correct, and accurate.

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I don't disagree that sometimes the signs in the protests were offensive. But I have seen equally offensive messages at left wing rallies and right wing rallies. The TEA parties are no different. They are not one voice - they are individual people with individual concerns. While I dislike and don't agree with the 'birthers', I do support their right to question. And, let's be honest, Obama could shut them up very easily by releasing his full records... But, that, to me is a distraction, not an issue.

Personally, I think we need to let go of some of the stupid stuff - the constant sniping, the ranting towards Bush, Cheney et al, the birth certificate, etc. All of these are NOT going to help us go forward - they only seek to divide. Which is why the media constantly play them up. The politicians - and the media - would prefer we concentrate on stupid non-issues so they can continue to rob us all.

We really need to be smarter than that. We need to not be distracted by some stupid sign and concentrate on what we all want. Decent, honest politicians who represent us.

I agree with your sentiments here, Cali. However, it is because the "Tea Party movement" is not one voice, and represents way too many agendas, that they cannot be considered a viable tool to reshape our government. The kooks associated with them only help to detract from any credibility other members may achieve.

See what I mean...I guess no one read my post.

What about the kooks in the Congress as we speak!! They have a voice and make policy!!!!

Dont Worry Patek, the american voter is now awake and we are gunning for them next.

 

[VaYank5150]

There are people on the far left and far right who have had up similar signs in the past VaYank. Where is your outrage at the left I only see your outrage going toward the right. 3 examples of each

The left:
Kill Bush
Bush is a Nazi
Republicans are racists

The right:
God hates you (outside abortion clinics)
Obama is a muslim non-citizen
Bury Obamacare with Kennedy

I don't give a shit about what anyone did in the past. Cali asked a question about moving forward. I pointed out that the Tea Party movement is not a legitimate option and asked for additional options, MOVING FORWARD. Get it?

Taking off partisan blinders is part of moving forward...get it?

Are you trying to convince yourself? You may have to repeat it more than once.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

I agree with your sentiments here, Cali. However, it is because the "Tea Party movement" is not one voice, and represents way too many agendas, that they cannot be considered a viable tool to reshape our government. The kooks associated with them only help to detract from any credibility other members may achieve.

See what I mean...I guess no one read my post.

What about the kooks in the Congress as we speak!! They have a voice and make policy!!!!

Dont Worry Patek, the american voter is now awake and we are gunning for them next.

Yes we are...I'm sick and tired of out of an control Congress just doing whatever their puppet masters want.