The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Foxfyre]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

You can't win against people who don't understand what truth, fact and knowledge are. They don't get humanity, they don't understand honor, and their whole existence is facile. I just can't figure out if they know that and like it, or if they're just so pathetic they can't move off that plane....

Depends on your definition of win.

If you mean 'win' as in Bodecea, Gadawg, and a few others on the opposition side admitting they lost, then you're right. You can't win that way.

If you mean 'win' as in having the far superior argument, then you and several others arguing on the 'pro Christian foundation for the USA" side have absolutely made your case and won the debate by a huge margin.

 

[bodecea]

Are you saying religion had nothing at all to do with the founding of this nation?

Some...most of our founders practiced various versions of Christianity....but they were extremely wise and left that out of the creation of our government. They made the FIRST country truely secular in nature with no one religion influencing thought. They are to be greatly honored for their innovation and brilliance. Our Constitution is the greatest blueprint for government ever written...ever. And it is completely secular in nature.

You still don't get it.

What part of founding this nation do you not understand?

The creation of the government was AFTER this country was founded as was the Constitution.

The Foundation of our Country...the way our country is set up IS the Constitution. Yes, we gained our independence before that...but the Articles of Confederation did not work, we had to retool. And the Constitution is the heart and soul of our country. And our founders left any shred of religion out of it. And they were very Wise.

 

[bodecea]

And does that make me in some way.....less?

No, of course not.















Voting for Barack Obama does, though.......

What with Obama losing the presidency and all......

 

[bodecea]

what god?

If he said "Gaia" would you suddenly agree?

No...why would I?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Actually I totally agree that Locke is the primary foundation of our Founders ideas. Locke is the PREMIER political science philosopher of the Enlightenment. My question is on your stating that HE was restating already established judeo-christian principles. I was hoping you could provide a distinct connection....and not be insulting about it.

I didn't insult you. I suggested that you study up, and I've already given you the basics.

John Locke extrapolated his political theory of natural law in the Two Treatises of Government from the Judeo-Christian ethical system of thought, i.e., the socio-political ramifications of the Judeo-Christian construct of free will and the preeminence of the Creator over the State; these entail the self-determination and free-association of the Anglo-American tradition of classical liberalism predicated on (1) the sanctity of human life, (2) unbridgeable rights and (3) the notion that the family of nature is the first principle of private property, you know, as in the Declaration of Independence.​

In the Two Treatises of Civil Government, Locke repeatedly appeals to the contentions of scripture regarding the state of man relative to divine law as the only reliable course for natural law.

The First Treatise refutes the monarchial patriarchalism of Robert Filmer's Patriarcha, driving home the point, backed by scripture, that the family of nature under God, not the State, is the first principle of private property, the practical means by which men assert their inherent liberty in the real world in both the state of nature and in the state of society. The Second Treatise outlines Locke's theory of man in the state of civil society based on natural rights and contract theory.

Locke establishes the foundation for his theory of natural law with Hooker's formulation from Ecclesiastical Polity before he goes on to hammer out the system in his own terms:

[T]he Law of Nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions must . . . be conformable to the Law of Nature, i.e., to the will of God. [L]aws human must be made according to the general laws of Nature, and without contradiction to any positive law of Scripture, otherwise they are ill made. —Two Treatises on Government, Bk II sec 135​

Others have given you the testimony of the Founders. In any event, you've read the Declaration of Independence haven't you? That's Lockean natural law 101.

You don't seem to want the truth.

What else is there? What do you want?

Read.


More suggested reading:
Locke's The Reasonableness of Christianity
Locke's A Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity
Locke's Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity II

 

[Uncensored2008]

No...why would I?

No reason, you just seemed like an "Algore" level whack-job...

 

[Uncensored2008]

What with Obama losing the presidency and all......

I sure would hope so. It would restore some small faith in humanity for me.

 

[bodecea]

What with Obama losing the presidency and all......

I sure would hope so. It would restore some small faith in humanity for me.

Psst...what with Obama losing the Presidency in 2008 and all.

 

[Missourian]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I was searching for free public domain books to download for my eReader and came across this from Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America 1835:

"Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.

There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.

Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."


​

Alexis de Tocqueville - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

"The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live."

Just so.

 

[Foxfyre]

"The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live."

Just so.

And even with all that Christianity included in the process, no theocracy developed or threatened to develop. And even the little theocracies here and there in the colonies had pretty much dissolved by their own choice by the end of the 18th Century.

And even with all that Christianity included in the process, the Founders gave us the most free, most productive, most innovative, and most prosperous nation in the history of the world. A nation founded and based on the principle of unalienable rights that came from their Christian faith.

I can't understand why even staunch Atheists would not appreciate and celebrate that unless they despise freedom, productivity, innovation, and prosperity and prefer the more oppressive societies under monarchs, dictators, socialist or totalitarian governments.

 

[bodecea]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I was searching for free public domain books to download for my eReader and came across this from Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America 1835:

"Moreover, almost all the sects of the United States are comprised within the great unity of Christianity, and Christian morality is everywhere the same. In the United States the sovereign authority is religious, and consequently hypocrisy must be common; but there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other; and with them this conviction does not spring from that barren traditionary faith which seems to vegetate in the soul rather than to live.

There are certain populations in Europe whose unbelief is only equaled by their ignorance and their debasement, while in America one of the freest and most enlightened nations in the world fulfills all the outward duties of religion with fervor.

Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."


​

Alexis de Tocqueville - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​

An outside observer.....I DO love what he said about the South tho.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

I can't understand why even staunch Atheists would not appreciate and celebrate that unless they despise freedom, productivity, innovation, and prosperity and prefer the more oppressive societies under monarchs, dictators, socialist or totalitarian governments.

Actually, I do know a few atheists, rare to be sure, who strenuously oppose those who distort the historical record, precisely because the construct that divinity is the only legitimate source and guarantor of human life and liberty is the only logically defensible position against the tyranny of collectivist civil rights.

As one of my atheists friends once told me: "I do not believe that God exists, but I do politics as if He did."

Naturally, he's a classical liberal, a conservative-libertarian like myself of the Lockean old school. He does not attack theism and admires Judeo-Christianity's ethical system of thought.

Most atheists are either leftists or libertarian socialists.

 

[Foxfyre]

I can't understand why even staunch Atheists would not appreciate and celebrate that unless they despise freedom, productivity, innovation, and prosperity and prefer the more oppressive societies under monarchs, dictators, socialist or totalitarian governments.

Actually, I do know a few atheists, rare to be sure, who strenuously oppose those who distort the historical record, precisely because the construct that divinity is the only legitimate source and guarantor of human life and liberty is the only logically defensible position against the tyranny of collectivist civil rights.

As one of my atheists friends once told me: "I do not believe that God exists, but I do politics as if He did."

Naturally, he's a classical liberal, a conservative-libertarian like myself of the Lockean old school. He does not attack theism and admires Judeo-Christianity's ethical system of thought.

Most atheists are either leftists or libertarian socialists.

As do I. They rarely show up on threads like this though. The Atheists we get are those who are more likely to want to destroy all positive religious references, symbolism, and significance in history as well as elsewhere in the country.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Some...most of our founders practiced various versions of Christianity....but they were extremely wise and left that out of the creation of our government. They made the FIRST country truely secular in nature with no one religion influencing thought. They are to be greatly honored for their innovation and brilliance. Our Constitution is the greatest blueprint for government ever written...ever. And it is completely secular in nature.

You still don't get it.

What part of founding this nation do you not understand?

The creation of the government was AFTER this country was founded as was the Constitution.

The Foundation of our Country...the way our country is set up IS the Constitution. Yes, we gained our independence before that...but the Articles of Confederation did not work, we had to retool. And the Constitution is the heart and soul of our country. And our founders left any shred of religion out of it. And they were very Wise.

Which came first, the founding of this nation or the Constitution?

I've asked this at least once before.

You seem to think this country wasn't founded until 1787 when the Constitution was created.

And did I hear someone say you had come sort of degree in history?

 

[bodecea]

You still don't get it.

What part of founding this nation do you not understand?

The creation of the government was AFTER this country was founded as was the Constitution.

The Foundation of our Country...the way our country is set up IS the Constitution. Yes, we gained our independence before that...but the Articles of Confederation did not work, we had to retool. And the Constitution is the heart and soul of our country. And our founders left any shred of religion out of it. And they were very Wise.

Which came first, the founding of this nation or the Constitution?

I've asked this at least once before.

You seem to think this country wasn't founded until 1787 when the Constitution was created.

And did I hear someone say you had come sort of degree in history?

The Founding, of course. And they made mistakes at the beginning and were wise enough TO FIX THEM themselves. And I honor them for that.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The Foundation of our Country...the way our country is set up IS the Constitution. Yes, we gained our independence before that...but the Articles of Confederation did not work, we had to retool. And the Constitution is the heart and soul of our country. And our founders left any shred of religion out of it. And they were very Wise.

Which came first, the founding of this nation or the Constitution?

I've asked this at least once before.

You seem to think this country wasn't founded until 1787 when the Constitution was created.

And did I hear someone say you had come sort of degree in history?

The Founding, of course. And they made mistakes at the beginning and were wise enough TO FIX THEM themselves. And I honor them for that.

Exactly. So why do you keep bringing up the Constitution in a discussion about our founding?

 

[bodecea]

Which came first, the founding of this nation or the Constitution?

I've asked this at least once before.

You seem to think this country wasn't founded until 1787 when the Constitution was created.

And did I hear someone say you had come sort of degree in history?

The Founding, of course. And they made mistakes at the beginning and were wise enough TO FIX THEM themselves. And I honor them for that.

Exactly. So why do you keep bringing up the Constitution in a discussion about our founding?

Because the Constitution is the FINAL product of those very Founders. We would be having a very, very different discussion in this thread if it were not for how the Constitution is written, what it does, and what it stands for.

Deny that if you can.

 

[Spoonman]

The Founding, of course. And they made mistakes at the beginning and were wise enough TO FIX THEM themselves. And I honor them for that.

Exactly. So why do you keep bringing up the Constitution in a discussion about our founding?

Because the Constitution is the FINAL product of those very Founders. We would be having a very, very different discussion in this thread if it were not for how the Constitution is written, what it does, and what it stands for.

Deny that if you can.

what about all the amendments?

 

[AllieBaba]

The Founding, of course. And they made mistakes at the beginning and were wise enough TO FIX THEM themselves. And I honor them for that.

Exactly. So why do you keep bringing up the Constitution in a discussion about our founding?

Because the Constitution is the FINAL product of those very Founders. We would be having a very, very different discussion in this thread if it were not for how the Constitution is written, what it does, and what it stands for.

Deny that if you can.

I deny it, you fucking idiot. The foundation and the final product cannot be one and the same thing.

Jesus.