The stock market was up 400 points today, or as the Democrats call it — terrible news

[Ninja]

It might just be that ordinary people look at the numbers being thrown around and think............why couldn't some of that have been used for health care?

Then they come down from the acid trip and remember what it was like the last few times they were at the DMV and the post office.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

But then they're probably sucking in the propaganda from Fox so it wouldn't occur to them.

*sighs*

Does it not strike you as the most contradictory of sour grapes to claim the American people are easily lead sheep for no other grousing reason than they refuse to follow YOUR agenda?

Maybe they surveyed your arguments and found them wanting. Maybe they don't want it even if they believed you. Maybe they are informed. Maybe they are independent minded.

Maybe they just don't like a bunch of condescending assholes insulting them in the same breath used to plead for their charity.

 

[Diuretic]

*sighs*

Does it not strike you as the most contradictory of sour grapes to claim the American people are easily lead sheep for no other grousing reason than they refuse to follow YOUR agenda?

Maybe they surveyed your arguments and found them wanting. Maybe they don't want it even if they believed you. Maybe they are informed. Maybe they are independent minded.

Maybe they just don't like a bunch of condescending assholes insulting them in the same breath used to plead for their charity.

Everyone is easily led, not just Americans.

As this bailout proceeds the numbers will resound. American taxpayers will begin to ask why they're having to foot the bill, as necessary as it is. Inquiring minds will want to know.

And about sour grapes. Remember the fable? It's about cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance may just fail this time when all those numbers are trotted out for public consumption. The old stories may cease to comfort.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

I don't have to wait for the numbers to be trotted-out to start hating this but whing that the American people are sheep being guarded by the FOX (news) is the single most self-defeating form of cognitive dissonance.

 

[editec]

Here's the state of affairs...

Due to deregaulaton in the banking and financie industry, deregulation which members of BOTH PARTIES were stupid enough to sign onto, the market started creating a system of selling off risks on debt (both mortgage loans and corporate debt) between banks and insurance companies.

So this deregulation made it possible for banks to take and spread risks that were NOT appropriate FOR BANKS.

Now since the people wanted to see to it that people could buy houses, and since other people wanted the stock market to thrive, the FED keep the cost of borrowing money low. Probably too low, given how little money people were really making and given how little profits corporations were also making.

So, thanks to shoddy regulation and cheap money, banks and finance companies started creating mortgage instruments which basically weren't based on sound lending practices which pumped up their profits because it brought them business they would normally have turned down.

As long as the price of real estate continued to rise, the bonds that were created , bonds created based on the assigned risk of those mortgages were sold mostly to banks and large investors like mutual funds.

When the price of real estate went south we DISCOVERED that the risk assigned to those bonds by ratings companies whose sole job it is to understand risk was WILDLY understated, and the default rates of those bonds was much higher than anyone expected it to be.

Now banks and insurqance comapnies are holding assets which have unknown values, and because of that, those banks are not legally capitalized, thus driving some of them out of business.
And as one bank goes down, other banks, banks holding THEIR paper disover that now their assets (their bonds they've been counting on a part of their capitalization) are ALSO no longer liquid because nobody knows what they're really worth either.

And as this recession (that is not officially happening) is also effecting corporations abilities to pay off their debts (remember they ALSO enjoyed low interest rates just like home buyers did) THEIR paper is losing it's value, too.

We are entering a classic DEFLATION event, here, folks.

All those assets were part of our M3 are losing value meaning there is less money to lend and borrow, and we find banks so concerned by this that they aren't even lending to each other.

That is what we are facing and any of you who think they can take encouragement because this is going to help one party or the other are ttragically missing the point.

We are on the edge of a world wide depression if the USA cannot stabilize the banking industry.

Stop thinking in terms of rebulicans and democrats, folks.

Start thinking in terms of what actually happened and stop trying to apply your tpoltical theories and philosohpies to this event

The Money guys fucked up big time.

They've bullshit themselves so badly that our banking system is at risk of collapsing under a tidalwave of defaulting paper and if that happens, you can expect our economy and the world's economies to grind to halt.

McCain can't fix that.

Obama can't fix that

All the king's horse and all the king's men cannot put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

Wait for "The PLAN" to be announced tomorrow.

You are going to see this Republican administration RAPE concept of laisse fair economics, believe me.

If, as some of you want, the government did nothing?

We'd see the stock market collapse, thousands of banks would go belly up, and we would find ourselves in soem kind of catastropic depression.

I don't know if they can prevent that, anyway, but I'm all for them trying to find some solution to the MESS that the MASTER CLASS (not the fools who overbought homes,) created for ALL of us.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

So what you're saying is: Bush is doing the best that can be done considering the cards dealt.

...

Excuse me waiter, I'd like to order me a McSame-burger with a side order of moosechips.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't have to wait for the numbers to be trotted-out to start hating this but whing that the American people are sheep being guarded by the FOX (news) is the single most self-defeating form of cognitive dissonance.

If I gave you that impression then I erred. Let me clarify.

This "sheeple" rubbish I've heard used on all sides of politics is demeaning. I suspect it goes back to Grossman and his worrying theory of how society operates. It makes me very uncomfortable when I read about anyone who regards themselves a protector of the sheep, a watchdog looking over the dumb animals.

Americans aren't sheep guarded by Fox News. Any of us, regardless of nationality, are liable to be led by the Pied Piper, it's human nature. The point I was making and it was a bit blunt I admit, was that Americans may finally wise up to what has been happening, not just recently, but for many years in terms of how the economy operates. I have to invoke the idea of "false consciousness" here.

That's where Fox comes in.

The number of programmes on Fox that focus on the stock market is astounding. All the talking heads, the bloke from MASH, Neal Cavuoto and his mates, it's like watching a verbal football game. As long as they're talking about "wealth" and "value" the average person watching can feel good about everything,.

But for the average person it means absolutely nothing to them except for their 401K.

It's a game for real players.

But is somehow distracts the average person.

It's a bit like watching "Dallas" or "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous".

Instead of involvement it's voyeurism. And voyeurism, while it might titillate, is ultimately unsatisfying.

Perhaps Americans may start to ask why the people who have caused this financial crisis have been paid fabulous amounts of money. And while it's necessary in the short term to get them out of trouble by spending big taxpayer bucks why should the system be allowed to resume where it left off so that in x years time the taxpayer will be required to bail out the corporations yet again and to allow their massively overpaid executive off the hook?

 

[Diuretic]

So what you're saying is: Bush is doing the best that can be done considering the cards dealt.

...

Excuse me waiter, I'd like to order me a McSame-burger with a side order of moosechips.

Bush has no choice.

What happens later? Will McCain be elected and declare business as usual, thereby delaying the entire collapse of the US financial system or will he - or Obama - come into office and regulate the US finance industry so that this type of calamity can't happen again?

Given that McCain is at sixes and sevens on this, him being a deregulator and all, do you think he's a good bet to fix things?

 

[Ravi]

Here's the state of affairs...

Due to deregaulaton in the banking and financie industry, deregulation which members of BOTH PARTIES were stupid enough to sign onto, the market started creating a system of selling off risks on debt (both mortgage loans and corporate debt) between banks and insurance companies.

So this deregulation made it possible for banks to take and spread risks that were NOT appropriate FOR BANKS.

Now since the people wanted to see to it that people could buy houses, and since other people wanted the stock market to thrive, the FED keep the cost of borrowing money low. Probably too low, given how little money people were really making and given how little profits corporations were also making.

So, thanks to shoddy regulation and cheap money, banks and finance companies started creating mortgage instruments which basically weren't based on sound lending practices which pumped up their profits because it brought them business they would normally have turned down.

As long as the price of real estate continued to rise, the bonds that were created , bonds created based on the assigned risk of those mortgages were sold mostly to banks and large investors like mutual funds.

When the price of real estate went south we DISCOVERED that the risk assigned to those bonds by ratings companies whose sole job it is to understand risk was WILDLY understated, and the default rates of those bonds was much higher than anyone expected it to be.

Now banks and insurqance comapnies are holding assets which have unknown values, and because of that, those banks are not legally capitalized, thus driving some of them out of business.
And as one bank goes down, other banks, banks holding THEIR paper disover that now their assets (their bonds they've been counting on a part of their capitalization) are ALSO no longer liquid because nobody knows what they're really worth either.

And as this recession (that is not officially happening) is also effecting corporations abilities to pay off their debts (remember they ALSO enjoyed low interest rates just like home buyers did) THEIR paper is losing it's value, too.

We are entering a classic DEFLATION event, here, folks.

All those assets were part of our M3 are losing value meaning there is less money to lend and borrow, and we find banks so concerned by this that they aren't even lending to each other.

That is what we are facing and any of you who think they can take encouragement because this is going to help one party or the other are ttragically missing the point.

We are on the edge of a world wide depression if the USA cannot stabilize the banking industry.

Stop thinking in terms of rebulicans and democrats, folks.

Start thinking in terms of what actually happened and stop trying to apply your tpoltical theories and philosohpies to this event

The Money guys fucked up big time.

They've bullshit themselves so badly that our banking system is at risk of collapsing under a tidalwave of defaulting paper and if that happens, you can expect our economy and the world's economies to grind to halt.

McCain can't fix that.

Obama can't fix that

All the kinds horse and all the kings men cannot put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

Wait for "The PLAN" to be announced tomorrow.

You are going to see this Republican administration RAPE concept of laisse fair economics, believe me.

If, as some of you want, the government did nothing?

We'd see the stock market collapse, thousands of banks would go belly up, and we would find ourselves in soem kind of catastropic depression.

I don't know if they can prevent that, anyway, but I'm all for them trying to find some solution to the MESS that the MASTER CLASS (not the fools who overbought homes,) created for ALL of us.

Good post, Edi. And while I agree it's silly to point fingers because neither McCain nor Obama can fix this mess with a sound bite, both can certainly make it worse.

Making it worse would mean giving the corporations 700 billion in tax payer's money without a severe effort to roll back deregulation and add transparency to the financial world. Making it worse would also be continuing and in fact expanding the corporate tax rate cut and the tax cuts for the rich.

 

[editec]

So what you're saying is: Bush is doing the best that can be done considering the cards dealt.

I'm saying BUSH is so totally clueless about the mechanics of this financial disaster that he is NOT IN THE ROOM where the fix is being worked out.

I'm saying the whole move to DEREGULATE, something that Bush and the Republicans have been demanding for decades (and they got with some help from the DemoCRAPS, too) has ONCE AGAIN, come home to screw the AMERICAN TAXPAYER, just as it did (only much worse) duing the SAVINGS AND LOAD debacle of the 80s.

Excuse me waiter, I'd like to order me a McSame-burger with a side order of moosechips.

As it regards THIS MESS, it really doesn't matter for WHOM you are planning on voting, Hole.

The grownups (the BIG money boys) are trying to fix the mess they've made of our economy (and theirs!) , and the Executive has NOTHING to do with that.

Bush? He's not even being consulted about this matter, believe me.

HIS MASTERS (the BIG money boys) will tell HIM what they're planning and whatever it is, however SOCIALIST their solution, he'll sign onto it like a good little TOOL.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

It appears L'il 'O is racing up to be a good little tool as well.

Still, McSame did offer a warning in 2005 as did Bush in 2003.

That other idiot has less to offer than either Bush or McCain except that he employs the ones that made their millions and split.

 

[Care4all]

The stock market is in the condition it's in because of Democratic policies. Obama was in on the Fannie Mae mess, and the bottom of the housing market fell out because idiot democrats insisted that we provide loans to low-income, high-risk and frequently illegal alien people, suspending the usual guidelines and binding the mortgage companies so they couldn't make money.

Allie, on this, you are SOOOOOOOOOO far off base!

Shortly after George W. Bush was elected president, Congress and President Clinton were trying to pass a $384 billion omnibus spending bill, and while the debates swirled around the passage of this bill, Senator Phil Gramm clandestinely slipped a 262-page amendment into the omnibus appropriations bill titled: Commodity Futures Modernization Act. It is likely that few senators read this bill, if any. The essence of the act was the deregulation of derivatives trading (financial instruments whose value changes in response to the changes in underlying variables; the main use of derivatives is to reduce risk for one party). The legislation contained a provision -- lobbied for by Enron, a major campaign contributor to Gramm -- that exempted energy trading from regulatory oversight. Basically, it gave way to the Enron debacle and ushered in the new era of unregulated securities. Interestingly enough, Gramm's wife, Wendy, had been part of the Enron board, and her salary and stock income brought in between $900,000 and $1.8 million to the Gramm household, prior to the passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

 

[editec]

It appears L'il 'O is racing up to be a good little tool as well.

Without DOUBT!

Still, McSame did offer a warning in 2005 as did Bush in 2003.

Bully for him. So did I. Can I be POTUS, instead?

That other idiot has less to offer than either Bush or McCain except that he employs the ones that made their millions and split.

Whatever.

You're so hepped up like this was a football game, discussing issues beyond petty partisan poolitics isn't something you can do.

Do you or do you NOT understand that what America and the WORLD is facing is a DEPRESSION?

A completely collapse of the economic system that we've been living under since the 1970s?

The national banking system, not only of this nation, but of the entire industrialized nations of the world is facing emminent collapse if they don't find SOME solution?

And understand that the RULES ARE CHANGING in a way that will make the whole libertarian/Federalism debate as significant to us as the debate that raged over mideval Europe about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.

Sport they CONFISCATED the largest insurance company on EARTH last week to prevent a DEPRESSION.

TRY to wrap you partian addled head around that fact, would you?

As a liberal and a FEDERALIST I'm shocked by that move.

You, as a conservative should be shitting bricks about it.

Instead you are still whining about Obama and McCain?

Wake up!

The partians game we've been playing is called off on account of DISASTER to the economic system.

As patriotic Americans its time to STOP attacking each other and start thinking about how on earth we save our nation from economic disaster.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

The thing we're fighting is panic.

If people panic and pull their money out of the market than businesses lose their operating capital. That will make jobs disappear and on down the line. It's bad enough the money the banks are holding is suddenly cut but the purpose of the $600b is to prop-up those sagging cash reserves.

And this may seem partisan but the last thing we need is some reject from the Legislative Amateur Hour sucking yet more money out of a cash-starved economy based on some absurd notion of social engineering and "economic fairness" WTF that might mean.

And if "l'il 'O hired the CEOs that feathered their nests with other people's nest eggs it means he's too damned obtuse to have foreseen the crisis his rival already saw by virtue of the fact he's probably smart enough to have wanted to spare himself the embarrassment of being linked to these crooks on his advisory staff. If he did see it coming and still hired the crooks then he is a cynical power-player looking out for his own interests, the little guy be damned and that's exactly the kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

 

[Silence]

The stock market is in the condition it's in because of Democratic policies. Obama was in on the Fannie Mae mess, and the bottom of the housing market fell out because idiot democrats insisted that we provide loans to low-income, high-risk and frequently illegal alien people, suspending the usual guidelines and binding the mortgage companies so they couldn't make money.

Allie, sometimes I wonder if you are an intentional retard to just a genetic retard.

Deregulation: The Special Case of Banking

here are some fun things to watch

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CaOrlFxEZc]YouTube - George Bush Deregulation of Housing Crisis - Lou Dobbs[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1oG5oVpdgg&feature=related]YouTube - Bush jokes about housing crisis[/ame]

please remind everyone who was in charge of Congress in 1999 when phil Graham pushed through the deregulation of banks? it wasn't the Dems..

You and other Cons can attempt to lay this crisis at the feet of the Democrats but that just won't fly with most Americans.

Bush's tax cuts, the deregulation of banks and mortgage lenders and sky rocketing prices on everything from food to gas is what got us in this mess.

The Democrats have been in control of Congress since Jan 2007... this crisis was well documented before that.

 

[HoleInTheVoid]

When have lower operating costs ever lead to financial failure?

Good GAWD you people are enamored with taxes.

When did deregulation harm the cable companies, airlines and phone service?

 

[editec]

The thing we're fighting is panic.

Yup! Worse, a thoroughly justifiable panic.

If people panic and pull their money out of the market than businesses lose their operating capital. That will make jobs disappear and on down the line. It's bad enough the money the banks are holding is suddenly cut but the purpose of the $600b is to prop-up those sagging cash reserves.

Businesses are ALREADY losing their operating capital since they typically get that operating capital by selling BONDS, rather than equity.

And this may seem partisan but the last thing we need is some reject from the Legislative Amateur Hour sucking yet more money out of a cash-starved economy based on some absurd notion of social engineering and "economic fairness" WTF that might mean.

Oh, have no fear, when this all shakes out there will likely be damned little money for social services, OR the military, either.

And if "l'il 'O hired the CEOs that feathered their nests with other people's nest eggs it means he's too damned obtuse to have foreseen the crisis his rival already saw by virtue of the fact he's probably smart enough to have wanted to spare himself the embarrassment of being linked to these crooks on his advisory staff. If he did see it coming and still hired the crooks then he is a cynical power-player looking out for his own interests, the little guy be damned and that's exactly the kind of thinking that got us into this mess.

Oh spare us you mincing rationalizing apologies for why McCain had a clue.

He was an enabler of this goofy system no less than any other person who's been sucking off the teat of Congress for the last 25 years, you numbskull.

How much money do you suppose HE took from WAll STREET in the last quarter of a century?