Zone1 The "Soul Sleep" doctrine?

[DennisPTate]

I got really into Darwinian Evolutionary Theory when I was in Elementary School. I got offended by a hellfire and brimstone sermon by Dr. Billy Graham in 1965 or '66 and so when I heard Evolutionary Theory taught in Grade four I became an Atheist.

I was in total disbelief until 1972 or 1973 when I heard TV evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong offer powerful evidence that the hell fire doctrine was incorrect. He also did a good job of disproving traditional Evolutionary Theory using the Law of Probability and the structure of a protein molecule.

By 1990 I ran into evidence that the "Soul Sleep" idea that I had been very happy with for about eighteen years was almost certainly not quite accurate.

Here is how a near death experiencer describes what the "Soul Sleep" doctrine can do to somebody who believes in this idea with their whole heart. Dr. George Ritchie's near death experience was in 1943 and it played a big role in getting Dr. Raymond Moody interested in this phenomena.

[Dr. George Ritchie]:

c. His Experience of the “Receiving Station”​

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of “receiving station” where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were “angels” trying to arouse them and help them realize, “God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn.” These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

d. His Description of the Horrors of Hell​

They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons – trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn’t agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like – a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, “I always knew!” and “Didn’t I warn you!” Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either – only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn’t abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.

e. His Observations of the Temple of Wisdom​

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie’s Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience. They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. An enormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.

George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience - Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife profiles George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience . Did you enjoy reading this post, we have more!

near-death.com

 

[MarcATL]

Yes, Scripture states that the dead know nothing.

Also, it forbids even trying to communicate w/the dead, because of the first reason I stated above. Side note: This is why Saul lost his Kingship to David, because he attempted to communicate w/the dead.

Lastly, Scripture states that the dead in Christ will rise to meet Him in the air, if the dead were already "somewhere else", are they going to be in two places at the same time?

OP, the term "Soul Sleep" is a derogatory term made up by folk in Christendom who reject the plain text and doctrine of Scripture. Unfortunately it's the majority of self-proclaimed Christians who pushes the false doctrine of the dead being "elsewhere" or not really dead.

They don't realize that preaching a doctrine that teaches that individuals will be burning in hell forever does not accurately portray the character of God. Who would want to serve a God that punishes humans who live a relatively short time on earth by burning them forever? That's not a God, I, or anyone, would want to serve.

 

[DennisPTate]

Yes, Scripture states that the dead know nothing.

Also, it forbids even trying to communicate w/the dead, because of the first reason I stated above.

Lastly, Scripture states that the dead in Christ will rise to meet Him in the air, if the dead are somewhere else, are they going to be in two places at the same time?

I must admit that the way that the King James Version of the Bible translates certain statements by King Solomon, it does sound like the dead just cease to exist, [until their resurrection]. This is what I believed for eighteen years.

[quote
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[/quote]

The statement by the Apostle Paul got me really questioning though after I ran into various near death experience accounts.

I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 ;On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses

2 Corinthians 12

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 12 - Revised Standard Version

Paul’s Visions and Revelations - I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know...

www.biblegateway.com

The more that I dug into NDE accounts the less able I was to think that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was merely figures of speech.

There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20;And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22;The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23;and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29;But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead."

[Luke 16

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 16 - Revised Standard Version

The Parable of the Dishonest Manager - He also said to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a steward, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. And he called him and said to him, ‘What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your stewardship, for...

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[onefour1]

From a biblical Christian point of view, Jesus went among the spirits of the dead and preached to them his gospel. Do you really think that Jesus would preach to the spirits of the dead if they were completely unable to think or receive his message?

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we see that Jesus preached to the spirits of the dead who live according to God in the spirit. When we die, our immortal spirits separate from our bodies which are dead. Upon resurrection, our spirits will again be reunited with our bodies to become immortal not only in spirit but also in flesh and bone bodies.

 

[MarcATL]

I must admit that the way that the King James Version of the Bible translates certain statements by King Solomon, it does sound like the dead just cease to exist, [until their resurrection]. This is what I believed for eighteen years.

[quote
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The statement by the Apostle Paul got me really questioning though after I ran into various near death experience accounts.



The more that I dug into NDE accounts the less able I was to think that the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was merely figures of speech.

You were correct for 18 years, and the "third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2 as the dwelling place of God, distinct from the first heaven (the atmosphere) and the second heaven (outer space).

The concept is that these are not literal levels, but a way to describe different realms, with the third being the highest and most direct presence of God.

 

[MarcATL]

From a biblical Christian point of view, Jesus went among the spirits of the dead and preached to them his gospel. Do you really think that Jesus would preach to the spirits of the dead if they were completely unable to think or receive his message?

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Here we see that Jesus preached to the spirits of the dead who live according to God in the spirit. When we die, our immortal spirits separate from our bodies which are dead. Upon resurrection, our spirits will again be reunited with our bodies to become immortal not only in spirit but also in flesh and bone bodies.

The use of the term "dead" here refers to those that are spiritually dead, that's why Jesus preached to them, then they became alive in Christ.

A core principle of Bible study is that Scripture does not go against Scripture. However, individuals and groups can misinterpret Scripture.

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[DennisPTate]

You were correct for 18 years, and the "third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2 as the dwelling place of God, distinct from the first heaven (the atmosphere) and the second heaven (outer space).

The concept is that these are not literal levels, but a way to describe different realms, with the third being the highest and most direct presence of God.

I now have concluded that I had been mistaken by assuming that the words of King Solomon were clear and easily understood and that all that is written in the Bible should be understood in the light of King Solomon's seemingly clear statements, but now I am certain that the other things about the state of the dead in Isaiah and in Revelation is true, and King Solomon is the one who is easily misunderstood, [although I admit that the way that he has been translated into English sure does sound authoritative and final].

Now I am of the belief that actual deceased kings of the earth came to meet with King Nebuchadnezzar when he passed on.

He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

[Isaiah 14]

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 14 - King James Version

For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them...

www.biblegateway.com

Just as verse 14 mentions "trees rejoicing" I once assumed that the entire set of scriptures must be a figure of speech but then I ran into:

The Secret Life of Plants (1973) is a book by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, which documents controversial experiments that claim to reveal unusual phenomena associated with plants, such as plant sentience and the ability of plants to communicate with other creatures, including humans. The book goes on to discuss philosophies and progressive farming methods based on these "findings".

It was heavily criticized by scientists for promoting pseudoscientific claims. Later editions were published with the subtitle A Fascinating Account of the Physical, Emotional and Spiritual Relations Between Plants and Man.

The Secret Life of Plants - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[onefour1]

The use of the term "dead" here refers to those that are spiritually dead, that's why Jesus preached to them, then they became alive in Christ.

A core principle of Bible study is that Scripture does not go against Scripture. However, individuals and groups can misinterpret Scripture.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Jesus went among the spirits in prison "20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Many of these spirits were alive on earth in their mortal bodies during the days of Noah. Their bodies had long since died but their spirits were still alive. Many of them died in the great flood.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

For a modern day revelation on this topic read: Doctrine and Covenant 138

The dead are those whose bodies are dead but have not yet been resurrected. But their spirits are immortal and Christ went among them to preach his gospel so all who did not have the opportunity to receive his gospel here on the earth will have a chance to accept before the great day of judgement. Jesus himself, after dying but before resurrecting, lived on as a spirit and went among the spirits of the dead and preached his gospel to them. It would be unjust to condemn of a person for not accepting the gospel in this life if they never had the opportunity to hear and accept it. God is a totally just being and made it possible for all to have the chance to receive and accept his gospel whether here on the earth in their bodies or after they are dead as to the body and live among the spirit that are dead as a spirit.

IF you have verses in the bible that you believe contradict this principal, then present the actual verses and we can discuss them.

 

[Cougarbear]

Yes, Scripture states that the dead know nothing.

Also, it forbids even trying to communicate w/the dead, because of the first reason I stated above. Side note: This is why Saul lost his Kingship to David, because he attempted to communicate w/the dead.

Lastly, Scripture states that the dead in Christ will rise to meet Him in the air, if the dead were already "somewhere else", are they going to be in two places at the same time?

OP, the term "Soul Sleep" is a derogatory term made up by folk in Christendom who reject the plain text and doctrine of Scripture. Unfortunately it's the majority of self-proclaimed Christians who pushes the false doctrine of the dead being "elsewhere" or not really dead.

They don't realize that preaching a doctrine that teaches that individuals will be burning in hell forever does not accurately portray the character of God. Who would want to serve a God that punishes humans who live a relatively short time on earth by burning them forever? That's not a God, I, or anyone, would want to serve.

I believe your interpretations are lacking based on other NT scriptures like 1Peter 3:5-8 and 1Peter 4:5-6. How does one preach to someone that knows nothing or is asleep? Their bodies are not awake but their spirits and intelligence is very much awake for Jesus to have preached to them who did not have a chance to know Him in this life. To know of his doctrine too.

You then throw in a strawman argument about the dead bodies rising to receive their spirit bodies and be judged and resurrected as grace dictates. We return to him. The question is, do we want to remain in the Father and Son's presence? Our faith and works aren't to give us more points on a scale from hell to the third heaven or degree in the Celestial glory as spoken of by Paul in 1Corinthians chapter 15. Instead, they are to gain more faith in wanting to be with Christ and our Father in Heaven. We are being raised to them in the resurrection of our bodies and spirits. Then, we choose to be comfortable with them or go to a lower level of heaven or perdition (Hell forever). We get on the covenant path, baptism of water and fire, temple ordinances and then work to help others in need and so on to become more like Christ and feel more comfortable being and staying with Him and our families forever in His presence.

 

[Cougarbear]

I got really into Darwinian Evolutionary Theory when I was in Elementary School. I got offended by a hellfire and brimstone sermon by Dr. Billy Graham in 1965 or '66 and so when I heard Evolutionary Theory taught in Grade four I became an Atheist.

I was in total disbelief until 1972 or 1973 when I heard TV evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong offer powerful evidence that the hell fire doctrine was incorrect. He also did a good job of disproving traditional Evolutionary Theory using the Law of Probability and the structure of a protein molecule.

By 1990 I ran into evidence that the "Soul Sleep" idea that I had been very happy with for about eighteen years was almost certainly not quite accurate.

Here is how a near death experiencer describes what the "Soul Sleep" doctrine can do to somebody who believes in this idea with their whole heart. Dr. George Ritchie's near death experience was in 1943 and it played a big role in getting Dr. Raymond Moody interested in this phenomena.

Grace is Sufficient enough.

 

[DennisPTate]

I believe your interpretations are lacking based on other NT scriptures like 1Peter 3:5-8 and 1Peter 4:5-6. How does one preach to someone that knows nothing or is asleep? Their bodies are not awake but their spirits and intelligence is very much awake for Jesus to have preached to them who did not have a chance to know Him in this life. To know of his doctrine too.

You then throw in a strawman argument about the dead bodies rising to receive their spirit bodies and be judged and resurrected as grace dictates. We return to him. The question is, do we want to remain in the Father and Son's presence? Our faith and works aren't to give us more points on a scale from hell to the third heaven or degree in the Celestial glory as spoken of by Paul in 1Corinthians chapter 15. Instead, they are to gain more faith in wanting to be with Christ and our Father in Heaven. We are being raised to them in the resurrection of our bodies and spirits. Then, we choose to be comfortable with them or go to a lower level of heaven or perdition (Hell forever). We get on the covenant path, baptism of water and fire, temple ordinances and then work to help others in need and so on to become more like Christ and feel more comfortable being and staying with Him and our families forever in His presence.

Way to go CougarBear, those are excellent scriptures for anybody to think about deeply.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
[I Peter 3]

The way that this is worded is intriguing indeed.

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
[I Peter 4]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 4 - King James Version

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of...

www.biblegateway.com

And yes I Corinthians 15 is related to this topic in so many ways.

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
[I Corinthians 15: 29]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - King James Version

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[MarcATL]

Jesus went among the spirits in prison "20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Many of these spirits were alive on earth in their mortal bodies during the days of Noah. Their bodies had long since died but their spirits were still alive. Many of them died in the great flood.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

For a modern day revelation on this topic read: Doctrine and Covenant 138

The dead are those whose bodies are dead but have not yet been resurrected. But their spirits are immortal and Christ went among them to preach his gospel so all who did not have the opportunity to receive his gospel here on the earth will have a chance to accept before the great day of judgement. Jesus himself, after dying but before resurrecting, lived on as a spirit and went among the spirits of the dead and preached his gospel to them. It would be unjust to condemn of a person for not accepting the gospel in this life if they never had the opportunity to hear and accept it. God is a totally just being and made it possible for all to have the chance to receive and accept his gospel whether here on the earth in their bodies or after they are dead as to the body and live among the spirit that are dead as a spirit.

IF you have verses in the bible that you believe contradict this principal, then present the actual verses and we can discuss them.

There goes that buzzword, "immortal."

Only God is immortal brother, the first lie ever told in Scripture is "you shall not surely die", by the serpent Lucifer to Eve and mankind is still falling for that lie.

Are you saying that there's a separate part of an individual thats a physical body and a separate part of the individual that's a soul that exists somewhere separately until the second coming? If so, that's science fiction.

Also, tell me, why has God forbidden us to even try talking to the dead? Unless you're now saying that He didn't do that.

 

[DennisPTate]

There goes that buzzword, "immortal."

Only God is immortal brother, the first lie ever told in Scripture is "you shall not surely die", by the serpent Lucifer to Eve and mankind is still falling for that lie.

Are you saying that there's a separate part of an individual thats a physical body and a separate part of the individual that's a soul that exists somewhere separately until the second coming? If so, that's science fiction.

Also, tell me, why has God forbidden us to even try talking to the dead? Unless you're now saying that He didn't do that.

Talking to the dead is very dangerous as author Joe Fisher found out when he did the research behind his book "Hungry Ghosts."

I believe that there is a massive difference between somebody having and talking about a near death experience in comparison to somebody doing a seance in order to speak with the deceased, [or with a familiar spirit acting like they are that person]?

 

[onefour1]

There goes that buzzword, "immortal."

Only God is immortal brother, the first lie ever told in Scripture is "you shall not surely die", by the serpent Lucifer to Eve and mankind is still falling for that lie.

1 Corinthians 15:52-57
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All mankind that are mortal on this earth die and/or will need to be changed to an immortal state of being with their bodies.

Are you saying that there's a separate part of an individual thats a physical body and a separate part of the individual that's a soul that exists somewhere separately until the second coming? If so, that's science fiction.

Also, tell me, why has God forbidden us to even try talking to the dead? Unless you're now saying that He didn't do that.

Man's spirit is the literal offspring of God and existed prior to coming to this earth. After creating Adam's body he breathed into Adam his spirit and the spirit and the body is the soul of man. Upon death the spirit will separate from the body and live in the world of spirits until the day of judgement, while the body dies and must await resurrection before becoming alive and immortal.

I can only guess that God would not want man to attempt to speak to the dead because all the evil spirits of those who rebelled against God and fought against God in the war in heaven and sided with Lucifer, later named Satan, were cast out of heaven into the earth and they all try to deceive mortal man. You might believe you are speaking to one of the dead but may really be speaking to an evil spirit.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We were those among the angel of Michael who now have to overcome Satan and his minions by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. And yes our bodies are subject to death.

 

[Cougarbear]

Way to go CougarBear, those are excellent scriptures for anybody to think about deeply.



The way that this is worded is intriguing indeed.

What is your conclusion?

 

[DennisPTate]

What is your conclusion?

I am hoping that Latter day Saints are correct about the dead being able to learn and improve go up to a greater level of understanding even in the afterlife.

 

[DennisPTate]

1 Corinthians 15:52-57
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All mankind that are mortal on this earth die and/or will need to be changed to an immortal state of being with their bodies.

Man's spirit is the literal offspring of God and existed prior to coming to this earth. After creating Adam's body he breathed into Adam his spirit and the spirit and the body is the soul of man. Upon death the spirit will separate from the body and live in the world of spirits until the day of judgement, while the body dies and must await resurrection before becoming alive and immortal.

I can only guess that God would not want man to attempt to speak to the dead because all the evil spirits of those who rebelled against God and fought against God in the war in heaven and sided with Lucifer, later named Satan, were cast out of heaven into the earth and they all try to deceive mortal man. You might believe you are speaking to one of the dead but may really be speaking to an evil spirit.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We were those among the angel of Michael who now have to overcome Satan and his minions by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. And yes our bodies are subject to death.

Well said, the number of ways that we can be deceived if we somehow contact the deceased, or fallen angels, is pretty scary.

[Dr. George Ritchie] :

b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus​

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie’s tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.

Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.

Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is “chained to every consequence of his act.”

They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors’ alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor’s protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor’s unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience - Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife profiles George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience . Did you enjoy reading this post, we have more!

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[Cougarbear]

I am hoping that Latter day Saints are correct about the dead being able to learn and improve go up to a greater level of understanding even in the afterlife.

If people would just learn to read the Bible from true Apostles and Prophets of Christ and not people who claim they have seen heaven and talked with Christ, then 1Peter chapters 3 and 4 would leave you with no questions. It shouldn’t be a Latter-day Saints thing. It’s in the Bible. Rejected by so-called Christians.

 

[onefour1]

I guess Moses and Elijah were exceptions since their souls did not sleep but they met with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.

 

[Leo123]

We don't know what happens after death. We have seen folks who have been clinically dead come back with stories of floating, seeing dead relatives, etc.

IMO, what we believe is what happens to us after death. Jesus tried to tell us that.