CDZ The Orlando Mass Shooting and what can we learn from it?

[Coyote]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

 

[guno]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

And the others who were white right wing Christians terrorist attacks ?

 

[Carla_Danger]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

What is your suggestion?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

 

[Carla_Danger]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

 

[Coyote]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

LOL @ Christian Homophobic extremism. You goofs can't even recognize why Orlando happened and now two of you deflect to "Christians". Get honest with yourselves, recognize the real problem and perhaps you will be taken serious.

As for what to do about Islamic terrorism? This morning the USA should have started airstrikes at any known ISIS location....and continue until they are dead dead dead

 

[Coyote]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

How would you suggest it be addressed, for one and secondly, what rights (if any) are you willing to infringe on to do so?

 

[aaronleland]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

 

[Coyote]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

LOL @ Christian Homophobic extremism. You goofs can't even recognize why Orlando happened and now two of you deflect to "Christians". Get honest with yourselves, recognize the real problem and perhaps you will be taken serious.

As I pointed out, Christians have certainly had their own extremist lone wolves in this country (more than Islamic) and Eric Rudolph is one example I specifically gave. One of the differences though is that when Eric Rudolph went on his rampage, I didn't see the Christian rightwing coming together in support of homosexuals. Not at all.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

 

[aaronleland]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

 

[daws101]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

oh so the others were ok because they weren't?

 

[daws101]

the constitution and the bill of rights really fuck up genocidal blood lust.

 

[Coyote]

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I think that is the most challanging question we face - what are we willing to give up for security?

Another thread brought up the idea of treating internet terrorism sites like child porn sites, in terms of law.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

 

[alpine]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Secularism is what made this spinning rock a peaceful place to live for human beings.

The more a society shoots far from it, the worse it gets, and the more people around the world suffer the consequences.

So the main question here is; do we have the right to impose our beliefs on others, if their ways are damaging ours?

Would this be "democratic"?

This is where the big struggle is imo.

Because this guy who just recently shot 100s of people, was a lone wolf, that is correct, but didnt just woke up one day and decided to pledge to ISIS and act.

He was "marginalized" over time, by very obvious sources.

Yes, got to choose the battles you are fighting very carefully
But worst thing to do would be; not to fight em...