The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Quantum Windbag]

Which part of Zimmerman's BS is it you think I cannot see through? Why do you think it takes a clairvoyant to see that you are full of shit?

His whole story reeks of bovine excrement. Technically, Bullshit is opaque so you can't see through it at all so stop lying by saying YOU have some special power to do so!
Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have proven that time and time again!

You must be clairvoyant because you see apparitions of BS everywhere that no one can see but you!

You just claimed you could see through his BS, and then chided me for asking which part of it I couldn't see though because it is impossible to see through BS.

Yet you wonder why sane people treat you like you are batshit crazy.

 

[SantaFeWay]

Besides (N)Obama, the Judge is clearly in the tank for the prosecution. Not unusual, and has been discussed here yesterday, but many of her rulings have been unduly prejudicial to the defense, I feel.

Two off the top of my head...1) allowing in "profiling" and "wannabe cop" into openings, and 2) disallowing GZ's family to be present in court to support their son. The limited testimony they were on witness lists for did not warrant their ban. And the P never even called them. Again, been discussed, but still not a fair Judge-ment call.

 

[testarosa]

Who is this [MENTION=23239]westwall[/MENTION] smarty pants person I haven't met yet???

I've been hanging out in the wrong thread.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Did you see the alleged pictures of GZ's injuries? Surely, if Martin was banging GZ's head against the ground there would have been blood on Martin's hands. Perhaps there was none of GZ's blood under the fingernails or anywhere else on Martin because he never grabbed GZ's head at all!

Why would blood from the back of Zimmerman's head be on Martin's hands?

GZ was not only bleeding from lacerations on the back of his head, his nose was broken and bleeding too. If you had to ask that question, you are more obtuse than I originally thought!

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

 

[Sallow]

GZ and his defense team DID establish that he got the kind of beating that warrants raising the claim of justification. NOW it is up to the STATE to DISPROVE it.

It is not the degree of injury suffered that justifies the action.

It is the kind of injury one reasonably feels, under the circumstances, that he is confronted with.

And no. I don't think a few boo boos are life threatening. But I DO think that if you have a guy on top of you pounding your noggin onto the pavement after you have had your nose broken by that guy, you MIGHT very well think that it is going to END badly for you. REAL badly. You might think you are about to have your skull busted or that you are about to die. (I also don't think a broken nose is anywhere near akin to a mere boo boo.)

YOU seem to think that such a thought process is unreasonable unless the injuries are already severe. I think you are simply and totally wrong on that point.

Who actually saw the "head bashing?" Anyone? We know the head hit the pavement because there is some blood. We also know Z was hit in the nose which would force the head back onto the cement which would result in one of those lumps and lacerations. Maybe hit twice in the nose and two lacerations and that's it. No DNA under his nails.

Then Z could have got his gun and shot M.

Would Z fear for his life after being hit in the nose? Maybe. Never experienced it. M was on top and didn't know what was next. Could Z could have announced, "Get up..I have a gun."
Maybe. M would be stupid to fight then, all Z would have to do is pull the trigger. Then he could say, M was warned.

Who cares if anybody saw it?

GZ spoke of it and has some injuries to the back of his head that tends to corroborate his account.
And I have no idea why anybody even pretends to care about no DNA under the nails. Completely irrelevant. Who would even EXPECT to find GZ's skin under TM's nails? That wouldn't be consistent with the account given by GZ, in fact.

There is not a thing in the evidence that undermines GZ's account that TM was on top and that TM was doing the old pound and ground. That is just a fact: not a thing in the record. And that's a problem for the State since the State has the obligation to disprove justification beyond a reasonable doubt.

Except it doesn't.

And when a person is carrying a gun around..and that person uses it on a another person who is unarmed, not breaking the law and has no history of breaking the law..the bar should be pretty high for self defense.

This is part of what people who make the argument that citizens should not be toting guns around are making.

Murder will become trivial.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Judge Rules Trayvon Martin’s Drug Use and History of Violence Not Currently Admissible in Court

May 28 2013

George Zimmerman’s defense team last week publicly released the contents of Trayvon Martin’s cell phone. On the phone they found text messages and images relating to street fighting, drug use, illegal gun ownership and problems at school/home.

In a recent ruling the judge for the case, Debra Nelson, said that evidence will not be initially admissible. Zimmerman’s defense team hopes to introduce the evidence to show that Martin had a predisposition to engage in fighting and violent behavior and possibly show him as the aggressor.

According to CBS News,

Nelson ruled Tuesday that George Zimmerman’s defense may not bring up Trayvon Martin’s past marijuana use, school suspensions or fighting at trial without another ruling granting them permission

This likely means that Nelson would only allow information about Martin’s past if the prosecution brings up Zimmerman’s past first.

Also recently released were higher resolution, color photos of George Zimmerman’s injuries, showing more physical damage than initial black and white photos initially released.​

Judge Rules Trayvon Martin?s Drug Use and History of Violence Not Currently Admissible in Court

--------------------------------

Text messages about Martin's smoking marijuana and trouble at school were released by Zimmerman's defense attorneys last week. The photos released by the defense team also show Martin blowing smoke and making an obscene gesture toward the camera.

Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, told the judge that Martin's marijuana use and past fighting was central to the argument that Zimmerman used self-defense when he confronted Martin last year at a gated community in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder. He has pleaded not guilty.

"We have a lot of evidence that marijuana use had something to do with the event," O'Mara said. "It could have affected his behavior."

Also on Tuesday, Nelson ruled that a toxicology test showing that Martin had marijuana in his system at the time of his death could not be discussed during opening statements.

The judge ruled against a defense request that the pool of jury candidates be sequestered during jury selection. Nelson denied a prosecution request for a gag order that would prohibit attorneys from talking about the case.​

Trayvon Martin Update: Judge denies delay of George Zimmerman's June 10 murder trial - Crimesider - CBS News


So Trayvan's history of violence and drug use isn't admissible. Strange that is the thing that led to this incident in the first place. The judge is desperately trying to make a conviction easy yet the prosecution still is having problems proving their case.

Trayvan's history of violence and drug use should NOT be admissible! Trayvon simply wanted to get home with his Skittles and tea. His mindset was not to attack and beat anyone he came across that night... He did not attack the clerk in the store where he bought his Skittles and tea, did he? Where was that uncontrollable violent beast that some right wing media sources are trying to conjure up with allusions to Martin's youthful misdemeanors?

Has anyone stopped to remember that Martin was confronted by and killed by Zimmerman.
Martin was minding his own business...It was Zimmerman who invaded Martin's space and
behaved in a manner that apparently provoked a confrontation. He made Martin feel threatened. BINGO! If Martin had been armed he would have been justified in shooting and killing Zimmerman... that is, if he was anyone other than a black teenager.

Zimmerman has proven to be a liar, a killer and a con artist! From that perspective it is hard to believe that he has become a cult hero of the right wingers. All it took was for Black people to seek justice on a national appeal when it seemed there would be none locally. That brought the closet racists and freaks out of the woodwork even though Zimmerman looks like a mestizo. The shame of Sandford, Fla. has left a stain in the fabric of American justice that is not fading anytime soon!

The guy that mocks me for implying that I can see thorough BS flat out claims to be able to speak with the dead, and that he is capable of knowing when the dead are lying.

Interesting.

 

[dilloduck]

Who actually saw the "head bashing?" Anyone? We know the head hit the pavement because there is some blood. We also know Z was hit in the nose which would force the head back onto the cement which would result in one of those lumps and lacerations. Maybe hit twice in the nose and two lacerations and that's it. No DNA under his nails.

Then Z could have got his gun and shot M.

Would Z fear for his life after being hit in the nose? Maybe. Never experienced it. M was on top and didn't know what was next. Could Z could have announced, "Get up..I have a gun."
Maybe. M would be stupid to fight then, all Z would have to do is pull the trigger. Then he could say, M was warned.

Who cares if anybody saw it?

GZ spoke of it and has some injuries to the back of his head that tends to corroborate his account.
And I have no idea why anybody even pretends to care about no DNA under the nails. Completely irrelevant. Who would even EXPECT to find GZ's skin under TM's nails? That wouldn't be consistent with the account given by GZ, in fact.

There is not a thing in the evidence that undermines GZ's account that TM was on top and that TM was doing the old pound and ground. That is just a fact: not a thing in the record. And that's a problem for the State since the State has the obligation to disprove justification beyond a reasonable doubt.

Except it doesn't.

And when a person is carrying a gun around..and that person uses it on a another person who is unarmed, not breaking the law and has no history of breaking the law..the bar should be pretty high for self defense.

This is part of what people who make the argument that citizens should not be toting guns around are making.

Murder will become trivial.

The bar is high for self defense claims and arguing the slippery slope is a loser.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Ummmm, and this is merely a guess...Trayvon was on top of GZ and the last time I checked gravity wants to push things towards the center of the planet...not out into space.
That would explain the cut to the back of his head and the obviously messed up nose in the pictures.

Do you also know that things like hands are movable objects that can defy gravity? The fingers can also reach around behind objects like GZ's head to get a firmer grasp while the thumbs are placed somewhere near the face to facilitate a more secure "hold." Meanwhile, a struggle is ensuing which means GZ was probably turning his head from side to side to avoid blows from at least one of Martin's fists or open hands. You failed the physics test, sir!

Please note I don't approve of what GZ did, but you armchair CSI types are amusing as hell.
You ignore basic physics and believe whatever the CSI BS you watched last night. The real world works different from TV and you should take that into consideration. Real cases are messy and rarely go together easy. In fact good detectives are always suspicious when a case falls together easy because THAT isn't normal.

Well, I guess it takes an armchair CSI type to know one. Welcome to the club! I see that your lack of experience stands out way above the rest of us O' great teacher! You don't have a clue as to what some of us "armchair CSI types know or have experienced." Careful, you might be surprised by the real life expertise some here have in matters like these! BTW, evidence at the crime scene has been poorly handled from the start. I have seen nothing to support the claim that GZ's head was banged against concrete at all... He had injuries to his head but was any of GZ's blood or DNA found on concrete consistent with his story? Did the cops even look?

Is it normal, for you, to hold an object that you intend to hit against something in such a way that your hand is between the object and the impact area? If so, can I please watch the next time you pick up a hammer to pound a nail?

 

[Sallow]

Why would blood from the back of Zimmerman's head be on Martin's hands?

GZ was not only bleeding from lacerations on the back of his head, his nose was broken and bleeding too. If you had to ask that question, you are more obtuse than I originally thought!

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

What evidence points to Zimmerman's nose being broken?

I mean hard evidence.

X-Rays.

A physical examination that's "deeper" than just looking at a picture.

Anyone even check it?

 

[jon_berzerk]

If Zimmerman does not take the stand the Judge will charge the jury in the jury charges before deliberations that the defendant has no duty to testify and that should in no way is a reflection of a defendant's guilt as the entire burden of proof is on the prosecution.

I'm unclear how FL law works in this case. Does the state have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense? Is the burden on the defense to show that he was in reasonable fear of death? Each state statute is a little different.

Does the state have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense?

yes

Is the burden on the defense to show that he was in reasonable fear of death?

no but they will

 

[Sallow]

Who cares if anybody saw it?

GZ spoke of it and has some injuries to the back of his head that tends to corroborate his account.
And I have no idea why anybody even pretends to care about no DNA under the nails. Completely irrelevant. Who would even EXPECT to find GZ's skin under TM's nails? That wouldn't be consistent with the account given by GZ, in fact.

There is not a thing in the evidence that undermines GZ's account that TM was on top and that TM was doing the old pound and ground. That is just a fact: not a thing in the record. And that's a problem for the State since the State has the obligation to disprove justification beyond a reasonable doubt.

Except it doesn't.

And when a person is carrying a gun around..and that person uses it on a another person who is unarmed, not breaking the law and has no history of breaking the law..the bar should be pretty high for self defense.

This is part of what people who make the argument that citizens should not be toting guns around are making.

Murder will become trivial.

The bar is high for self defense claims and arguing the slippery slope is a loser.

Really?

In Florida?

They were about to cut this guy loose.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Who actually saw the "head bashing?" Anyone? We know the head hit the pavement because there is some blood. We also know Z was hit in the nose which would force the head back onto the cement which would result in one of those lumps and lacerations. Maybe hit twice in the nose and two lacerations and that's it. No DNA under his nails.

Then Z could have got his gun and shot M.

Would Z fear for his life after being hit in the nose? Maybe. Never experienced it. M was on top and didn't know what was next. Could Z could have announced, "Get up..I have a gun."
Maybe. M would be stupid to fight then, all Z would have to do is pull the trigger. Then he could say, M was warned.

Who cares if anybody saw it?

GZ spoke of it and has some injuries to the back of his head that tends to corroborate his account.
And I have no idea why anybody even pretends to care about no DNA under the nails. Completely irrelevant. Who would even EXPECT to find GZ's skin under TM's nails? That wouldn't be consistent with the account given by GZ, in fact.

There is not a thing in the evidence that undermines GZ's account that TM was on top and that TM was doing the old pound and ground. That is just a fact: not a thing in the record. And that's a problem for the State since the State has the obligation to disprove justification beyond a reasonable doubt.

Except it doesn't.

And when a person is carrying a gun around..and that person uses it on a another person who is unarmed, not breaking the law and has no history of breaking the law..the bar should be pretty high for self defense.

This is part of what people who make the argument that citizens should not be toting guns around are making.

Murder will become trivial.

Let me get this straight, police, who routinely carry guns, are not permitted to use them against unarmed people even if said person is beating the crap out of them.

Somehow, I seriously doubt you are suddenly going to start arguing that police are always wrong when they kill an unarmed person, so my guess is this whole thing is about something other than Zimmerman having a gun and Martin not having one.

 

[Sallow]

Ummmm, and this is merely a guess...Trayvon was on top of GZ and the last time I checked gravity wants to push things towards the center of the planet...not out into space.
That would explain the cut to the back of his head and the obviously messed up nose in the pictures.

Do you also know that things like hands are movable objects that can defy gravity? The fingers can also reach around behind objects like GZ's head to get a firmer grasp while the thumbs are placed somewhere near the face to facilitate a more secure "hold." Meanwhile, a struggle is ensuing which means GZ was probably turning his head from side to side to avoid blows from at least one of Martin's fists or open hands. You failed the physics test, sir!

Please note I don't approve of what GZ did, but you armchair CSI types are amusing as hell.
You ignore basic physics and believe whatever the CSI BS you watched last night. The real world works different from TV and you should take that into consideration. Real cases are messy and rarely go together easy. In fact good detectives are always suspicious when a case falls together easy because THAT isn't normal.

Well, I guess it takes an armchair CSI type to know one. Welcome to the club! I see that your lack of experience stands out way above the rest of us O' great teacher! You don't have a clue as to what some of us "armchair CSI types know or have experienced." Careful, you might be surprised by the real life expertise some here have in matters like these! BTW, evidence at the crime scene has been poorly handled from the start. I have seen nothing to support the claim that GZ's head was banged against concrete at all... He had injuries to his head but was any of GZ's blood or DNA found on concrete consistent with his story? Did the cops even look?

Is it normal, for you, to hold an object that you intend to hit against something in such a way that your hand is between the object and the impact area? If so, can I please watch the next time you pick up a hammer to pound a nail?

Zimmerman's own testimony was that Martin "grabbed" his head and pounded it into the concrete.

Okay? How was that accomplished? Where did Martin "grab" his head?

Why were the injuries so light if that's what he did?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

GZ was not only bleeding from lacerations on the back of his head, his nose was broken and bleeding too. If you had to ask that question, you are more obtuse than I originally thought!

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

What evidence points to Zimmerman's nose being broken?

I mean hard evidence.

X-Rays.

A physical examination that's "deeper" than just looking at a picture.

Anyone even check it?

I am not the one that said his nose was broken, your problem is with the guy that is on your side, not me.

That said, the one time in my life my nose was broken all the doctor did was put a splint on it. It seems that X-raying cartilage only works in movies.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

GZ was not only bleeding from lacerations on the back of his head, his nose was broken and bleeding too. If you had to ask that question, you are more obtuse than I originally thought!

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

What evidence points to Zimmerman's nose being broken?

I mean hard evidence.

X-Rays.

A physical examination that's "deeper" than just looking at a picture.

Anyone even check it?

They have the doctor's diagnosis. SEE: George Zimmerman Medical Report Sheds Light on Injuries After Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

They have the photograph which appears to confirm it.

That is hard evidence.

X-rays not required (and as I have noted earlier, not even all that useful in diagnosis in many cases -- such is the case with broken noses).

YOUR belief in his nose having been broken is not required.

 

[Sallow]

Ummmm, and this is merely a guess...Trayvon was on top of GZ and the last time I checked gravity wants to push things towards the center of the planet...not out into space.
That would explain the cut to the back of his head and the obviously messed up nose in the pictures.

Do you also know that things like hands are movable objects that can defy gravity? The fingers can also reach around behind objects like GZ's head to get a firmer grasp while the thumbs are placed somewhere near the face to facilitate a more secure "hold." Meanwhile, a struggle is ensuing which means GZ was probably turning his head from side to side to avoid blows from at least one of Martin's fists or open hands. You failed the physics test, sir!

Please note I don't approve of what GZ did, but you armchair CSI types are amusing as hell.
You ignore basic physics and believe whatever the CSI BS you watched last night. The real world works different from TV and you should take that into consideration. Real cases are messy and rarely go together easy. In fact good detectives are always suspicious when a case falls together easy because THAT isn't normal.

Well, I guess it takes an armchair CSI type to know one. Welcome to the club! I see that your lack of experience stands out way above the rest of us O' great teacher! You don't have a clue as to what some of us "armchair CSI types know or have experienced." Careful, you might be surprised by the real life expertise some here have in matters like these! BTW, evidence at the crime scene has been poorly handled from the start. I have seen nothing to support the claim that GZ's head was banged against concrete at all... He had injuries to his head but was any of GZ's blood or DNA found on concrete consistent with his story? Did the cops even look?

Oh yes I know all of that. You still are making up a lot of assumptions. I don't know what the cops did or didn't do in their investigation. Based on how little the DA presented my assumption is the cops did little on the scene investigation otherwise there would have been a better presentation.
I have considerable real world experience sonny....I am a officer of the court myself and have testified in over 75 court cases over a period of 35 years as an expert witness so you may take your assertions and do with them what you please....but your knowledge of the legal system is severly lacking.....like most CSI wannabe's

Bingo.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you also know that things like hands are movable objects that can defy gravity? The fingers can also reach around behind objects like GZ's head to get a firmer grasp while the thumbs are placed somewhere near the face to facilitate a more secure "hold." Meanwhile, a struggle is ensuing which means GZ was probably turning his head from side to side to avoid blows from at least one of Martin's fists or open hands. You failed the physics test, sir!

Well, I guess it takes an armchair CSI type to know one. Welcome to the club! I see that your lack of experience stands out way above the rest of us O' great teacher! You don't have a clue as to what some of us "armchair CSI types know or have experienced." Careful, you might be surprised by the real life expertise some here have in matters like these! BTW, evidence at the crime scene has been poorly handled from the start. I have seen nothing to support the claim that GZ's head was banged against concrete at all... He had injuries to his head but was any of GZ's blood or DNA found on concrete consistent with his story? Did the cops even look?

Is it normal, for you, to hold an object that you intend to hit against something in such a way that your hand is between the object and the impact area? If so, can I please watch the next time you pick up a hammer to pound a nail?

Zimmerman's own testimony was that Martin "grabbed" his head and pounded it into the concrete.

Okay? How was that accomplished? Where did Martin "grab" his head?

Why were the injuries so light if that's what he did?

Hate to burst your bubble, but Zimmerman has not testified to a damn thing. If you cannot grasp that fundamental fact, why should I believe that you can make the complicated effort to actually weigh the evidence?

 

[Ernie S.]

Project much? Just because you follow everything the President says and found GZ guilty in your heart based on the Presidents speech, does not mean everyone else did.

Many do. Too many do. It was very unwise. His comments made it very difficult for Zimmerman to receive a fair trial. But that's not the only reason. The MSM declaring him "Evil White Man" was the final nail. We're all entitled to a fair trial.

Who are these many that do?

Again, project much? Why do you believe anything the msm makes up?

I don't know who they are, but they voted for him again last November.

 

[Sallow]

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

What evidence points to Zimmerman's nose being broken?

I mean hard evidence.

X-Rays.

A physical examination that's "deeper" than just looking at a picture.

Anyone even check it?

I am not the one that said his nose was broken, your problem is with the guy that is on your side, not me.

The question was simple.

Is there any hard evidence that Zimmerman's nose was broken?

A physical exam?

An X-Ray?

 

[Sallow]

His nose was broken? How is that possible if Martin was underneath and losing the fight? How did Martin get close enough to break Zimmerman's nose of he had a gun and was willing to shoot on sight?

What evidence points to Zimmerman's nose being broken?

I mean hard evidence.

X-Rays.

A physical examination that's "deeper" than just looking at a picture.

Anyone even check it?

They have the doctor's diagnosis. SEE: George Zimmerman Medical Report Sheds Light on Injuries After Trayvon Martin Shooting - ABC News

They have the photograph which appears to confirm it.

That is hard evidence.

X-rays not required (and as I have noted earlier, not even all that useful in diagnosis in many cases -- such is the case with broken noses).

YOUR belief in his nose having been broken is not required.

Has this been entered into evidence?