The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Sunshine]

If its a hung jury, you better bet your ass the state will re-file charges and start a new trial. I don't think O'Mara will defend Zimmerman for free and Zimmerman will be stuck with some crappy Public Defender.

Stamina is committed. I think he'll be there til the end.

I think he will too. A high profile case is free advertising at its finest.

 

[wavingrl]

should we list the egregious errors of this case?

bored with highlights of the trial.

It may be up to us to provide a thorough list.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

You might not be lying, but you are clearly hugely wrong, as OODA_Loop demonstrated quite well by QUOTING Goode.

Prove up your claim that he "equivocated" on that point.

 

[Foxfyre]

Regarding abstract thinking: I went to a seminar once where one of the presenters, an PhD, said that he is naturally a concrete thinker, but that through the use of multiple tools has helped himself be able to think more abstractly. I have noticed in my practice it is people who have gone to Sunday school who are the abstract thinkers. They have been taught the Christian 'parables' and what they mean. So they can apply that skill in other area.

I don't know about that as I have found conservatives in general are good at concrete, abstract, objective, and subjective thinking; however it is well known that many conservatives are also Christians so maybe Sunday school does have a bearing on it. However, I know many Christians who are passionate liberals and, though they grew up in Sunday School, still don't do well with abstract analysis and won't consider anything concrete or objective apart from how they feel about it including what is and is not politiically correct.

Example: We aren't supposed to consider any downside or long term ramifications to illegal immigration but a true Christian attitude is to understand that the people coming across the border are simply wanting a better life for themselves and their families and they are God's children too and we should accept and love them and make room for them. Discussion of the downside for the illegals is not acceptable and must be shouted down, yadda yadda.

I know many conservatives, however, who are agnostic or Atheist and didn't grow up in Bible class who are able to avoid the fuzzy feeling syndrone and see the whole big picture. For that reason I don't know if we can give Bible stories the credit. (But then I think I can reason abstract principles, lol.)

Anyhow, extrapolating that to this incredible Zimmerman trial, we should have known what was coming when the initial leftist media reports defined Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic." Have you EVER seen such a designation used on anybody before? Ever? That told you from the get go that he would be branded guilty and Trayvon Martin as the innocent victim of racism. There didn't have to be a shred of proof about that. In the liberal world that is the scenario that 'feels' right and therefore it must be made true.

LOL. That really is NOT well known. We are talking about my field of practice. I saw it 5 days a week for 25 years, and have a master's in it. Testing abstract thinking serves many purposes. Whether the person is liberal or conservative is not one of them. One of the most arcane signs of a traumatic brain injury is lack of ability to abstract. The article below addresses students, but I saw a lot of it in veterans who had returned from war who didn't show any sign of TBI except this. But upon further testing they were found to have a TBI.

It is often said that individuals with TBI have difficulty with abstract levels of thinking. Frontal lobe injury is typically identified as the source of this difficulty. In students with brain injury, impaired abstract thinking is frequently associated with reduced foresight, judgment, insight, reasoning, creativity, problem solving, and mental flexibility.

Tutorial: Concrete vs. Abstract Thinking

I, however, was not speaking of people with traumatic or other brain injury. I was speaking about all of us in the normal everyday world. Deviance or other abnormalities are not at issue there. So speaking abstractly, it is wise not to attempt to compare the phenomena we see in perspective and rationale among liberals and conservatives with those who are abnormally impaired in some way.

I don't claim any expertise in the medical implications except in the area of addictions. But I do have a small measure of expertise in evaluating temperament and perspective in the normal world. I am an ENT/FJ by the way.

 

[LoneLaugher]

O’Mara: That’s what you said.

Good: The whole thing, yes

O’Mara: And that was the context in which the words Ground-and-Pound came out.

Good: Yes, for more clarification.

O’Mara: OK. And do you stand by that today, that what you saw is was a Ground-and-Pound event?

Good: It looked like that position was a Ground-and-Pound type of position, but I couldn’t tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces.

O’Mara: But you did see [reading] “the guy in the top in the black hoodie pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Good: Meaning arm motions going down on the person on the bottom. Correct.

O’Mara: You’re’ not going to tell the jury here today that you saw fists hit flesh or face if you didn’t actually see it, right?

Good: I wouldn’t tell them that anyway, because i didn’t actually see it.

 

[Snookie]

Prosecution evidence.

This, Courtesy of MSNBC, Is Trayvon Martin's Dead Body. Get Angry.

 

[Zona]

You can't start a fight, find that you are loosing and shoot the guy YOU were following.

You can if the person escalates and tries to kill or inflict great bodily harm to you during the fight.

Who had the history of violence? Let's just work with that for a minute.
1 person had a history of violence against a cop, x girl friend, MMA fighter and 1. Smoked a joint. Who would be more violent? He shot an unarmed kid because he fit zimmermans version of a suspect. He did nothing wrong but be black in that area. He had a right to be safe there and not be shot.

 

[pioneerpete]

You can't start a fight, find that you are loosing and shoot the guy YOU were following. Imagine if it were Martin doing the following.

YOU can't prove he started a fight, you can't prove there was even a contested fight, and you can shoot a guy you were following if he commits an act that puts you in fear for your life. If Martin was doing the following he would have been within his rights as a private citizen to do so.

Have you ever stopped to consider that Zimmerman actually planned a confrontation that wouldn't have any witnesses to counter his version of events? Zimmerman could actually be some kind of a sicko thrill killer who planned something like this out for weeks and was waiting for just the right time of they year (winter) and the right weather conditions (it was raining) to minimize the possibility that anyone else would be outside to act as witnesses. Then he could make up any story he pleased.

That could very well be possible, but everybody in this country has the right to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That right is truly for everyone, not just people we like. Neither you or I or anyone knows what happened that night. To claim otherwise is insane. All I've ever claimed is what my view of the evidence is. I have no problem if anyone sees it differently than me, but I don't like it when assumptions are made or fabrications of the evidence are presented because they just don't like somebody. Moral and Legal are two different things.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

should we list the egregious errors of this case?

bored with highlights of the trial.

It may be up to us to provide a thorough list.

Corey's decision to lodge charges.

A massive and very egregious error.

All the rest flow from her initial imbecile "decision."

 

[OODA_Loop]

. I heard every minute of Goode's testimony. He was unclear about whether there were punches thrown or just arm movements of some kind.

Yes but you're a liar.

“Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.” - John Goode

Get the testimony. He equivocated on that point.

**** you and your calling me a liar, asshole.

Goode didn't equivocate he didn't see punches.

He said he didn't know if the punches hit his face.

Good: It looked like that position was a Ground-and-Pound type of position, but I couldn’t tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces.

O’Mara: But you did see [reading] “the guy in the top in the black hoodie pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Good: Meaning arm motions going down on the person on the bottom. Correct.

 

[wavingrl]

If its a hung jury, you better bet your ass the state will re-file charges and start a new trial. I don't think O'Mara will defend Zimmerman for free and Zimmerman will be stuck with some crappy Public Defender.

Stamina is committed. I think he'll be there til the end.

I think he will too. A high profile case is free advertising at its finest.

a former president of the local bar association.

should be plenty of work for him.

? No reason that a prosecutor couldn't employ a similar style?

I'd look into it if I wanted to improve myself--not that attorneys always feel that way.

nothing of importance to add.

 

[PredFan]

I probably should have added a "Hung Jury" option to the poll.

 

[Boss]

Since everyone in America seems to be fixated on this one story, as if everything important in life as we know it, hinges on the outcome, I decided that I might as well contribute yet another thread on the topic, because what we really need is more cowbell..err.. opinion!

I have read most of the transcripts from the trial, I have watched a little of the trial on the internet, and I have read numerous stories reporting on testimony in the trial itself, but I have completely avoided the "media circus" which seems to now be our replacement for soap operas in America. I disconnected from television proper, about a year ago, and I don't regret it. I sometimes miss football, and things sometimes catch me by surprise because there are no Special Reports, breaking in... but I watch DVDs and do a lot of stuff online, so my time is occupied and I stay informed. I'm just no longer immersed in television 24-7.

That said, my viewpoints are not swayed by something said on television, or any kind of party politics.. (which I believe this is about, btw.) I have merely looked at the evidence, as presented by the prosecution, and my evaluation is this....

There should have never been charges brought against Mr. Zimmerman. Our justice system has a defined standard that must be met, with regard to murder or manslaughter, and in my opinion, these were not met. If I had been the judge in this case, after the prosecution's opening argument, I would have convened with the attorneys and informed them I was dismissing the case. On the grounds that it did not meet the established criteria for the charges.

The public perception of "facts" regarding Mr. Zimmerman's character or intentions, should have nothing to do with our legal justice system. That should reside on evidence, and only the evidence which pertains to the alleged incident. The job of the prosecution is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the alleged crime was committed. It is not the burden of the defense to prove beyond reasonable doubt, the man's innocence. Yet that is precisely what some people seem to think should be the case here.

I've heard people argue... "Well, he intended to do harm..." but this hasn't been established anywhere. He called 911, which is completely illogical if you are intending to harm someone. Generally, the person who phones 911, is the one being threatened by harm or potential harm, not the other way around. They say, "yeah, but he was a wannabe cop!" There is no evidence of this, he was a neighborhood watch volunteer, being a good citizen and trying to protect his community. We've got neighborhood watch programs all over the country, in many places, those people have conceal/carry permits. Are they now all "wannabe cops" if they have to use their weapon to defend themselves? "Yeah, but... He approached Trayvon, so he initiated the confrontation!" ...Again, it's not against the law to approach someone who is a stranger to your neighborhood and ask them what their business is, in fact, it's not illegal for anyone to approach another person and ask them anything. They don't have to answer, they can even call 911 and complain of being harassed. What they CAN'T do, is attack the questioner.

Could Zimmerman have handled the situation differently? Of course he could have, and don't you imagine he has thought about that very thing, a million times through this ordeal? I mean, his life is basically ruined now, regardless of how this trial ends. Do you think he wouldn't rethink his actions if he had it to do over again? And it's a tragedy, a family lost their 17-year-old son. I know that has to be devastating for them, and my sympathy goes out for their loss, but we have rules and guidelines to justice. Zimmerman was being assaulted, and whether or not he was able to discern if he was seconds or minutes away from losing his life, shouldn't matter with regard to his use of deadly force.

"Well, but we really don't know what happened, Boss!" Well, yes, we kinda do know, if you combine the forensic evidence and the testimony of Zimmerman and others. Because it defies common sense that Zimmerman would call 911 before turning redneck rambo on Martin. The evidence also shows that, while Zimmerman is questioning, Martin calls his girlfriend. Why did he not call 911, if he felt Zimmerman was a threat? What happened, was not Zimmerman taking the law into his own hands, but MARTIN taking the law into his own hands, and assaulting Zimmerman for questioning him. As it turns out, Martin lost his life, but what if he had killed Zimmerman instead? Would we have heard anything at all about this case? I doubt it... unless Zimmerman was black and Martin was white.

As I said earlier, I believe this is politically motivated. There was going to be no charge on Zimmerman, until Jesse Jackson got involved, and Al Sharpton protested. Then, our great racial uniter, President Obama, weighed in on the matter, like he enjoys doing from time to time in matters of race. And from there, the whole thing has snowballed. Casey Anthony is over... on to Jodi Arias... now let's consume ourselves in the soap opera of Trayvon Martin! And while we're busy being entertained by real-life drama, let's just forget all the rules of justice and law, and pretend they don't exist anymore, and everything is about our feelings. Because, this is really like American Idol, isn't it? It's a matter of who the public thinks should stay and go, and we're going to decide this case based on how we feel about Zimmerman, or how sorry we feel for Trayvon's family, and not the actual rule of law.

Yeah, it's about running out there and calling Zimmerman defenders "racists" and proudly carrying the banner for "Justice for Trayvon!" Because that shows we are tolerant and acceptant of black people, just in case anyone may have doubted that. Or maybe, we've tightened our libertarian screws too tightly, and we think this is about the freedom to walk around in neighborhoods without being questioned as to our motives? Yeah, maybe if we lock this Zimmerman away for 30 years, because he defended himself, that will teach people to leave you alone when you're creeping around neighborhoods and such?

 

[wavingrl]

should we list the egregious errors of this case?

bored with highlights of the trial.

It may be up to us to provide a thorough list.

Corey's decision to lodge charges.

A massive and very egregious error.

All the rest flow from her initial imbecile "decision."

political pressure--still surprised that the POTUS said what he said.

 

[LoneLaugher]

He did not see a fist hit a face. That means he was not certain that any punches we thrown or landed. I told you I hear the whole thing and the impression left was that he was unsure if punches were landed.

There is some more on this from the prosecutions questions as well.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Prosecution evidence.

This, Courtesy of MSNBC, Is Trayvon Martin's Dead Body. Get Angry.

As moronic as it was to decide to publicize the dead victim lying there dead, the article you cited to is even worse.

The author is such a clusterfuck of imbecility that he still thinks TM died because GZ did anything wrong. He finds fault with Florida for letting GZ have a gun.

He is as stupid as you and Sarah combined.

Ok. That's an exaggeration.

But he is still AS stupid as either one of you.

 

[CrazedScotsman]

I'm sitting here watch the 2000 Dolphins at Jets game and thinking about a commercial that was on and how stupid Cris Colensworths voice sounds, praying that the Bengals Pre-season game against the Falcons would hurry up and get here. Going to try and talk my wife into getting HBO just to watch Hard Knocks: Inside Training Camp With The Cincinnati Bengals but doubt that we will get HBO because we have Showtime for Dexter and Inside the NFL.

COME ON JURY!!! Bring the verdict already! Guilty, Not Guilty, just get with it!

 

[Snookie]

should we list the egregious errors of this case?

bored with highlights of the trial.

It may be up to us to provide a thorough list.

Corey's decision to lodge charges.

A massive and very egregious error.

All the rest flow from her initial imbecile "decision."

political pressure--still surprised that the POTUS said what he said.

It's known as free speech.

 

[OODA_Loop]

He did not see a fist hit a face. That means he was not certain that any punches we thrown or landed. I told you I hear the whole thing and the impression left was that he was unsure if punches were landed.

So your argument is Martin was observed on top raining down punches but the witness couldn't see where the punches landed ?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Let me see.......

Martin lands initial punch and busts Zimmerman's nose and causes the cut on the nose.

Then he "rains down" punches MMA style and causes no further facial damage?

Interesting.