The Myth of Wind and Solar Energy: They Are Not Free

[longknife]

- Institute for Energy Research Friday, December 21, 2012

The public is repeatedly told that wind and solar are “free” energy sources. Of course, this statement relates to costs once the plant is constructed and operating because, like hydropower, there is no ‘fuel cost’ with wind and solar power as there is with fossil fuel and nuclear generating technologies. But even that statement is a bit misleading, for intermittent technologies like wind and solar cannot be relied upon to produce power when needed, and must have other technologies to back them up. The cost of the back-up power, usually gas-fired or coal-fired generation, is not added to the cost of wind and solar power, so the public is less aware of the issues of using these intermittent technologies.

Read more @ The Myth of Wind and Solar Energy: They Are Not Free

 

[neomalthusian]

It's good to clarify myths around alternative energies. Getting smarter about how we harness what's around us makes sense, but we shouldn't delude ourselves as to what it can do. We will never barge goods around the world or fly airliners or do our 80 bazillion acre monocrop farming with electric vehicles.

I think you have to look at an overall EROEI for the whole process to figure out what has any real promise, and you have to acknowledge the limits of batteries. So far that leaves us with soberingly few big picture solutions over the long term. And by that I mean none.

 

[gallantwarrior]

So far, solar power works well enough for my 900 sq ft home. I still have a gas-powered generator for backup. I heat using a wood-burning stove, but have a propane stove on a thermostat to keep the place above freezing when I am gone too long to stoke that wood-burner. I am still doing the research to determine whether wind power will be an adequate alternative to the solar panels. ButI only am concerned with a small home and dairy. I do not have to power an entire city or an industrial complex.

 

[midcan5]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees. Thankfully not everyone is a negative naysayer of change. Sometimes the trees run out of fruit, the caves grow cold, and weeds come in handy for food.

 

[neomalthusian]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees.

 

[Meathead]

It is abject stupidity to think or even imply that any kind of power is free, except perhaps solar panels warming water. Electricity is costly to generate, except of course if you can harness it like Dr Frankenstein.

 

[Old Rocks]

Donald Sadoway: The missing link to renewable energy | Video on TED.com

 

[rdean]

The Myth of Wind and Solar Energy: They Are Not Free

Who ever said they were?

 

[westwall]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees. Thankfully not everyone is a negative naysayer of change. Sometimes the trees run out of fruit, the caves grow cold, and weeds come in handy for food.

No, we say if it works use it, just don't lie about it. I've had a solar system for 27 years in my home. How about you? I know what it can, and cannot do. Solar is inefficient when scaled up but for an individual home it has a place. Mine is a backup system and is now in need of replacement so I am researching those and so far the efficiencies are little better than when I built our first system. That's pathetic.

I am all for alternative energy systems...just not the grossly overpriced and innefficient crap they have now that is only around because the government takes money from middle class folks and gives it to rich Obama supporters.

 

[gallantwarrior]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees. Thankfully not everyone is a negative naysayer of change. Sometimes the trees run out of fruit, the caves grow cold, and weeds come in handy for food.

No, we say if it works use it, just don't lie about it. I've had a solar system for 27 years in my home. How about you? I know what it can, and cannot do. Solar is inefficient when scaled up but for an individual home it has a place. Mine is a backup system and is now in need of replacement so I am researching those and so far the efficiencies are little better than when I built our first system. That's pathetic.

I am all for alternative energy systems...just not the grossly overpriced and innefficient crap they have now that is only around because the government takes money from middle class folks and gives it to rich Obama supporters.

I agree that some alternative systems work on a small-scale basis. My place is wired for 12VDC. That works if you are willing to give up some amenities like microwave ovens, modern-style washers and dryers, among other larger appliances. I can charge cell phones and run my laptop using the dc converters like those used in your car. Other than that, you can buy 12vdc TVs', DVD players, refrigerators that run on both ad/dc electric or propane, and our light fixtures are all retro-fitted with LEDs.
They are experimenting in several villages here with wind generation. These are very small villages, and they are located where wind is pretty steady. Otherwise, wind is about the least efficient of all the new-age power generation ideas.

You are right about the cost, too. None of these systems is cheap to install. And they must be maintained properly to get maximum useful life from them. What's really hilarious is how the proponents for alternative power generation tout them as being environmentally friendly. Just what do they do with those batteries when they are no longer useful? Wind generation has been implicated in wildlife disturbances, too.

 

[RGR]

I think you have to look at an overall EROEI for the whole process to figure out what has any real promise, and you have to acknowledge the limits of batteries. So far that leaves us with soberingly few big picture solutions over the long term. And by that I mean none.

EROEI is hogwash. When applied to fossil fuels, renewables, or any system involving the concepts of cost and price and profit, it is ignorant hogwash.

 

[RGR]

The Myth of Wind and Solar Energy: They Are Not Free

Who ever said they were?

Exactly.

 

[Old Rocks]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees. Thankfully not everyone is a negative naysayer of change. Sometimes the trees run out of fruit, the caves grow cold, and weeds come in handy for food.

No, we say if it works use it, just don't lie about it. I've had a solar system for 27 years in my home. How about you? I know what it can, and cannot do. Solar is inefficient when scaled up but for an individual home it has a place. Mine is a backup system and is now in need of replacement so I am researching those and so far the efficiencies are little better than when I built our first system. That's pathetic.

I am all for alternative energy systems...just not the grossly overpriced and innefficient crap they have now that is only around because the government takes money from middle class folks and gives it to rich Obama supporters.

I agree that some alternative systems work on a small-scale basis. My place is wired for 12VDC. That works if you are willing to give up some amenities like microwave ovens, modern-style washers and dryers, among other larger appliances. I can charge cell phones and run my laptop using the dc converters like those used in your car. Other than that, you can buy 12vdc TVs', DVD players, refrigerators that run on both ad/dc electric or propane, and our light fixtures are all retro-fitted with LEDs.
They are experimenting in several villages here with wind generation. These are very small villages, and they are located where wind is pretty steady. Otherwise, wind is about the least efficient of all the new-age power generation ideas.

You are right about the cost, too. None of these systems is cheap to install. And they must be maintained properly to get maximum useful life from them. What's really hilarious is how the proponents for alternative power generation tout them as being environmentally friendly. Just what do they do with those batteries when they are no longer useful? Wind generation has been implicated in wildlife disturbances, too.

Good God! What the hell do you do with your automobile battery when it is no longer useful? You recycle the materials it is made of. Nickel and lithium are more valuable than lead, why do you think anyone is going to throw it away?

 

[50_RiaL]

ain't no sunshine when she's gone

 

[westwall]

If one follows the logic of the right wing we should never have crossed the Atlantic, moved out of the caves, farmed this grassland, or even came out of the trees. Thankfully not everyone is a negative naysayer of change. Sometimes the trees run out of fruit, the caves grow cold, and weeds come in handy for food.

No, we say if it works use it, just don't lie about it. I've had a solar system for 27 years in my home. How about you? I know what it can, and cannot do. Solar is inefficient when scaled up but for an individual home it has a place. Mine is a backup system and is now in need of replacement so I am researching those and so far the efficiencies are little better than when I built our first system. That's pathetic.

I am all for alternative energy systems...just not the grossly overpriced and innefficient crap they have now that is only around because the government takes money from middle class folks and gives it to rich Obama supporters.

I agree that some alternative systems work on a small-scale basis. My place is wired for 12VDC. That works if you are willing to give up some amenities like microwave ovens, modern-style washers and dryers, among other larger appliances. I can charge cell phones and run my laptop using the dc converters like those used in your car. Other than that, you can buy 12vdc TVs', DVD players, refrigerators that run on both ad/dc electric or propane, and our light fixtures are all retro-fitted with LEDs.
They are experimenting in several villages here with wind generation. These are very small villages, and they are located where wind is pretty steady. Otherwise, wind is about the least efficient of all the new-age power generation ideas.

You are right about the cost, too. None of these systems is cheap to install. And they must be maintained properly to get maximum useful life from them. What's really hilarious is how the proponents for alternative power generation tout them as being environmentally friendly. Just what do they do with those batteries when they are no longer useful? Wind generation has been implicated in wildlife disturbances, too.

Yep, you are 100% correct. Solar is about as far away from a "green" alternative as you can get. The manufacture of the PV panels is horribly toxic, but hey, they're doing it in countries populated by brown people who are being poisoned so its OK right? Right?

Hypocrites.

 

[westwall]

No, we say if it works use it, just don't lie about it. I've had a solar system for 27 years in my home. How about you? I know what it can, and cannot do. Solar is inefficient when scaled up but for an individual home it has a place. Mine is a backup system and is now in need of replacement so I am researching those and so far the efficiencies are little better than when I built our first system. That's pathetic.

I am all for alternative energy systems...just not the grossly overpriced and innefficient crap they have now that is only around because the government takes money from middle class folks and gives it to rich Obama supporters.

I agree that some alternative systems work on a small-scale basis. My place is wired for 12VDC. That works if you are willing to give up some amenities like microwave ovens, modern-style washers and dryers, among other larger appliances. I can charge cell phones and run my laptop using the dc converters like those used in your car. Other than that, you can buy 12vdc TVs', DVD players, refrigerators that run on both ad/dc electric or propane, and our light fixtures are all retro-fitted with LEDs.
They are experimenting in several villages here with wind generation. These are very small villages, and they are located where wind is pretty steady. Otherwise, wind is about the least efficient of all the new-age power generation ideas.

You are right about the cost, too. None of these systems is cheap to install. And they must be maintained properly to get maximum useful life from them. What's really hilarious is how the proponents for alternative power generation tout them as being environmentally friendly. Just what do they do with those batteries when they are no longer useful? Wind generation has been implicated in wildlife disturbances, too.

Good God! What the hell do you do with your automobile battery when it is no longer useful? You recycle the materials it is made of. Nickel and lithium are more valuable than lead, why do you think anyone is going to throw it away?

The point he was also making is the manufacture of those batteries is more toxic than the fossil fuel you want to replace.

 

[Old Rocks]

As usual, Walleyes, you are full of shit. Show where the battery manufacturers in the US are creating environmental hazards.

 

[westwall]

As usual, Walleyes, you are full of shit. Show where the battery manufacturers in the US are creating environmental hazards.

Why do you think the companies have relocated to the Third World fool.

 

[RGR]

As usual, Walleyes, you are full of shit. Show where the battery manufacturers in the US are creating environmental hazards.

Why do you think the companies have relocated to the Third World fool.

Unions. Or lack thereof.

 

[RightNorLeft]

Solar and wind wont ever be an energy source for the mass's not any time in the near future.
It just cant produce energy on a massive scale...could you even imagine how many windmills you would need just to power NYC forget about the rest of the country.
We need to drill here and im a true independent I have view on both sides. I just dont see any alternative sources of energy that can possibly do what oil and natural gas does.
Maybe we should be researching how to mass produce a synthetic oil thats cheap and plentiful, that can run in engines and heat homes.