The Misrepresented Political History of the Confederate Battle Flag

[theDoctorisIn]

No, it's really not. You build yourself a conspiracy narrative that has no basis in reality.

You are entitled to believe what you wish. But calling me a conspiracy theorist isn't a very compelling argument from your end.

I don't know how else to respond to your idea that there's some "systematic purge" going on other than to call it conspiracy nonsense.

Use your critical thinking, man.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Do you know the "actual philosophy" behind the swastika?

Yeah I do. Peace, good luck, auspiciousness, well being.

It's an ancient symbol common to many religions around the world, going back 5,000 years. The "real" meaning of a symbol is irrelevant when it means something else entirely to most of the people.

I'm curious, why is everything "irrelevant" to you? The real meaning of a symbol means a great deal more to those with whom it originated than those with whom it didn't, and whatever alternate meaning it is assigned by those outside of the origin is irrelevant. So, when the Army or Northern Virginia crafted that Confederate battle flag, they never intended for it to be a sign of slavery or racism. Period.

According to the historian John Coski, the flag was more a sacred symbol to southerners than one of white supremacy during reconstruction. That's what William Porcher Miles had in mind when he crafted the flag, it was intended to bear a sort of innate religious significance. I can't find any accounts where the flag was ever used as a symbol of oppression during or after the Civil War. It was a battle flag, nothing more, nothing less.

The meaning of a symbol can be misattributed, you know like the swastika. Once a symbol of luck, peace, and well being; it was perverted into one of murder, suffering, slavery, repression, genocide, and conquest. Likewise with the Confederate Battle Flag. A symbol of intended religious significance has been perverted into something representing slavery, racism, and oppression. See the pattern there?

You've missed about a hundred and fifty years of the history of that flag.

It wasn't until civil rights legislation was actually making headway in the mid 20th century that the Confederate flag regained any semblance of popularity - as a pretty clear anti-integration symbol.

That's when it was added to the Georgia flag, by the way - a couple years after Brown v. B.O.E, and almost a hundred years after the civil war ended.

Still, though - that's beside the point. The meanings of symbols change, and so do the perspectives that people look at them.

More Americans think the Confederate flag represents slavery and racism than think it represents heritage and all those other wonderful things. At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.

"Most Americans" is a bandwagon fallacy without substantive proof. People who weren't born down here in the south don't nor will ever understand the sentiment we show towards that flag. And presupposing the "slavery" and "racism" connotations upon it is in my view a convenient political invention.

You're only focusing on the post civil war interpretations of the flag, or the latter 50+ years. It was used as an "anti integration symbol" for the very reason the soldiers carried it into battle. It was a statement of rebellion. But that wasn't the purpose nor meaning of the flag. That constituted a complete bastardization of it.

At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.

A supposition. You have only the words of two politicians amongst an entire legislature.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Use your critical thinking, man.

Well, I was. But somehow my "critical thinking" isn't. Not much more I can do, friend.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Uh, how come this thread was moved? The whole issue of the Confederate Flag is historical, yet has current political ramifications and manifestations. Wait, don't answer that.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why not just ban all confederate "traitor" flags?

Because it isn't your right to ban anything, genius. And what gives you the idea that any of us who hold pride in such a flag happen to be traitors? Do you even know what the word means?

Man were charging across a battlefield under the banner of a battle flag designed for a new country called the Confederate states and shooting and killing other men.who were fighting under a banner that represented the United States. The men who fought under the confederate flag had been citizens of the United States before they took up arms against them. That is what made them traitors. Pretty basic and simple. If taking up arms against your government isn't treason, what is?

Did you even read what I wrote?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

"Most Americans" is a bandwagon fallacy without substantive proof. People who weren't born down here in the south don't nor will ever understand the sentiment we show towards that flag. And presupposing the "slavery" and "racism" connotations upon it is in my view a convenient political invention.

You're only focusing on the post civil war interpretations of the flag. It was used as an "anti integration symbol" for the very reason the soldiers carried it into battle. It was a statement of rebellion. But that wasn't the purpose nor the meaning of the flag.

It would be a "bandwagon fallacy" if I used the fact that the more Americans have negative opinions of the Confederate flag than positive to prove that it was itself objectively "bad". I think you're using the term wrong. That data is based on a number of polls:

Positive Reaction to the Confederate Flag Pew Research Center

9% of Americans have a positive reaction to the Confederate flag, versus 30% who have a negative reaction.

As for the rest, my point, as I've tried to make as clear as possible, is that the "purpose and meaning" of a symbol doesn't matter if to most people, the symbol has been re-appropriated to represent something else.

At this point, it seems that even most South Carolinians think that, by the stated opinion of the Republican governor and both Republican Senators.

A supposition. You have only the words of two politicians amongst an entire legislature.

3 politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Uh, how come this thread was moved? The whole issue of the Confederate Flag is historical, yet has current political ramifications and manifestations. Wait, don't answer that.

This thread specifically is focused on the history of the flag, is it not?

I wasn't the mod who moved the thread, but I agree with the decision. Don't think of threads being moved as punitive.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post

I'd be interested in seeing a current poll on that same question.

Even so, from your link:

Just 30.5 percent of South Carolinians described their feelings toward the flag as positive; 45 percent had negative feelings about it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

3 politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.

Of whom you assume speak for all of their constituents. Given how we live in an atmosphere where that is rarely the case, isn't that a bit...presumptive?

It would be a "bandwagon fallacy" if I used the fact that the more Americans have negative opinions of the Confederate flag than positive to prove that it was itself objectively "bad". I think you're using the term wrong. That data is based on a number of polls:

Positive Reaction to the Confederate Flag Pew Research Center

If we went solely based on your black and white (no pun intended) interpretation of that Pew Poll, I would be singing mea culpas right now. But I was reading that poll the moment you pinged me with your response.

"A 58%-majority say they have neither a positive or negative reaction when seeing the Confederate flag. Not surprisingly, there are disparate reactions to the Civil War flag of the South among different demographic groups. Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag."

To me, "most Americans" still is and will remain a bandwagon fallacy. Because at that point in time, most people didn't care.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post

I'd be interested in seeing a current poll on that same question.

Even so, from your link:

Just 30.5 percent of South Carolinians described their feelings toward the flag as positive; 45 percent had negative feelings about it.

Another quote just below it:

And yet, plenty of people who don't had a positive feelings about it and even some who had negative ones said the flag should stay.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

3 politicians - the three highest elected offices in the state, to be specific.

Of whom you assume speak for all of their constituents. Given how we live in an atmosphere where that is rarely the case, isn't that a bit...presumptive?

It would be a "bandwagon fallacy" if I used the fact that the more Americans have negative opinions of the Confederate flag than positive to prove that it was itself objectively "bad". I think you're using the term wrong. That data is based on a number of polls:

Positive Reaction to the Confederate Flag Pew Research Center

If we went solely based on your black and white (no pun intended) interpretation of that Pew Poll, I would be singing mea culpas right now. But I was reading that poll the moment you pinged me with your response.

"A 58%-majority say they have neither a positive or negative reaction when seeing the Confederate flag. Not surprisingly, there are disparate reactions to the Civil War flag of the South among different demographic groups. Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag."

To me, "most Americans" still is and will remain a bandwagon fallacy. Because at that point in time, most people didn't care.

I didn't say "most", I said "more". And seriously, that's not what the term bandwagon fallacy means.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This thread specifically is focused on the history of the flag, is it not?

No, it was also meant to address the current political issues surrounding it, as of this day and age. But discussing moderator actions on the open forums is a no-no. I will cease my protests at once.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post

I'd be interested in seeing a current poll on that same question.

Even so, from your link:

Just 30.5 percent of South Carolinians described their feelings toward the flag as positive; 45 percent had negative feelings about it.

Another quote just below it:

And yet, plenty of people who don't had a positive feelings about it and even some who had negative ones said the flag should stay.

I know. Polls are weird like that.

I would put some money on the numbers being significantly different now, though. I'm sure we'll see some newer poll numbers specific to SC soon - we're already seeing a significant change nationally - latest polls show a two-thirds majority of Americans against the flag being displayed on government property.

https://cdn.americanprogressaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/NationalGunPoll062115-Results.pdf

 

[TemplarKormac]

And seriously, that's not what the term bandwagon fallacy means.

The meaning is quite simple:

It is a fallacy in which the assertion is deemed by the arguer as valid because a supposed "majority" of people support it.

I know exactly what it means, and we shan't parse words. I'd like to keep this discussion as lively and relevant as possible.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In 2014 six in 10 South Carolinians said the Confederate flag should stay - The Washington Post

I'd be interested in seeing a current poll on that same question.

Even so, from your link:

Just 30.5 percent of South Carolinians described their feelings toward the flag as positive; 45 percent had negative feelings about it.

Another quote just below it:

And yet, plenty of people who don't had a positive feelings about it and even some who had negative ones said the flag should stay.

I know. Polls are weird like that.

I would put some money on the numbers being significantly different now, though. I'm sure we'll see some newer poll numbers specific to SC soon - we're already seeing a significant change nationally - latest polls show a two-thirds majority of Americans against the flag being displayed on government property.

https://cdn.americanprogressaction.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/NationalGunPoll062115-Results.pdf

That specific point is conceded.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I am rather enjoying this debate, especially with you, Doc. This is good mental exercise.