The Minimum Wage Game

[RandomVariable]

Wal-Mart names McMillon to replace Duke as CEO | Reuters

Duke's salary for the fiscal year ended January 31, was $1.3 million, while his total remuneration was $20.7 million, according to a regulatory filing in April. McMillon's total compensation for the period was $9.6 million.

 

[RandomVariable]

CEOs are only the front person of the money going into a select few's pocket which would be nothing if it was not for the work force. Who do you think is paying for all this 'minimum wage will kill business' bs? Go ahead and keep eating it up and spewing it out on the message board. If the rich told some of you to stand one foot, bend over backwards, and stick your head in the sand you would be more than happy to do so and argue with anyone who did not follow along.

 

[Dirk the Daring]

The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor.

Mitt was ROASTED by liberals for saying this exact thing.

 

[ScienceRocks]

The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor.

Mitt was ROASTED by liberals for saying this exact thing.

it isn't as if the government does things for the poor, but rather people like Mitt will keep helping the poor. The nobility of this country works very hard for slave labor as morality means very little to most of them.

 

[Bombur]

The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor.

Mitt was ROASTED by liberals for saying this exact thing.

Mitt was a hard candidate to get a read on IMO. Sometimes he sounded like he actually wanted to help the middle class and other times it looked like he wanted to push supply side economics even more.

 

[Bombur]

My only problem with the minimum wage argument is that it once again shows that when the left is presented with a problem like income inequality their first inclination is to look at the poorest income segment and try and fix that. Ultimately it is no better than the supply side approach which looks at the other end of the spectrum.

It is about time we get a political party that starts solving problems by looking at the middle first. The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor. The middle class is generally a group of people we know will put work in and become productive members of society. They are a good investment.

I appreciate that you stand up for the middle. I am in the middle. But I do get a lot of hand outs from the government. I get my mortgage interest deduction, my child deduction, and I get to pencil whip the shit out of my business's. Then I get my kids educated and I get relatively clean air and water. And I get roads and bridges. etc etc.

Now, I don't get as much "help" as the ultra rich. (I don't own a lobbyist or a politician) but I get more than the poor. That's for sure.

I think to help the middle out, we need our very own lobbying organization. How do we do that?

There are some very strange transitions as people increase in income at the low to middle level. As they earn more they earn there way out of government programs and into higher taxation.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

If $8/hour is a better minimum wage than 10, why not 6, or 4, or 2, or zero?

Wouldn't we all better off if everyone worked for no money?

You failed economics 101, didn't you?

The point here is that labor is like any other commodity in markets. The price for labor is determined by many factors. Having government step in and set a minimum price for it, distorts other prices and has unintended consequences.

The fact that you try to be clever and in so show how very little you understand about economics is classic for the trolly LOLberals here.

It is best to remain quiet and let others wonder if you're stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I know more about economics than you'll ever know. That's why the point went over your head.

Your argument is for no labor laws. Unfortunately for you, the People decide what the laws for labor will be.

You want the economy to be run by the corporations; I want the economy to be run by the People.

the government is not the people. No matter how you slice it up, in fact, there is no "the people". That you've bought a wholesale lot of 500 lbs of political bullshit doesn't give you any credit in economic debate.

 

[SwimExpert]

Besides, if a $10 minimum wage is a Good Thing, then why not $15 or $20?

If $8/hour is a better minimum wage than 10, why not 6, or 4, or 2, or zero?

Wouldn't we all better off if everyone worked for no money?

That's a very foolish argument. That's like saying "If 10 mg of this medicine will make me feel better, then 30 mg will really make me feel great!"

 

[Bombur]

Besides, if a $10 minimum wage is a Good Thing, then why not $15 or $20?

If $8/hour is a better minimum wage than 10, why not 6, or 4, or 2, or zero?

Wouldn't we all better off if everyone worked for no money?

That's a very foolish argument. That's like saying "If 10 mg of this medicine will make me feel better, then 30 mg will really make me feel great!"

Of course it was stupid. It is called mocking.

mocking - definition of mocking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[SwimExpert]

If $8/hour is a better minimum wage than 10, why not 6, or 4, or 2, or zero?

Wouldn't we all better off if everyone worked for no money?

That's a very foolish argument. That's like saying "If 10 mg of this medicine will make me feel better, then 30 mg will really make me feel great!"

Of course it was stupid. It is called mocking.

mocking - definition of mocking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

You're a damned fool. Arguing against a person by using invalid reasoning is not mocking. It is arguing with invalid reasoning. In order to successfully mock, one must apply, either explicitly or implicitly, valid reasoning. For example, if my response to NY has been to present an escalating scale of potential minimum wage rates, up to $100/hr I would have been mocking him. Here, the implicit and valid reasoning is the demonstration that his mode of reasoning cannot be valid because it produces bad fruit when used in alternate scenarios. On the other hand, if my reply had been simply to tell NY that is mother smells like an ape, then I would have simply been applying invalid reasoning.

Now go back to bed and don't try to invent ridiculous BS to defend bad reasoning. NY is intelligent. You are not. I'm sure that he can understand the flaw in his reasoning and move on to better and more meaningful arguments to support his position. You are doing him an injustice in the meantime.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

That's a very foolish argument. That's like saying "If 10 mg of this medicine will make me feel better, then 30 mg will really make me feel great!"

Of course it was stupid. It is called mocking.

mocking - definition of mocking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

You're a damned fool. Arguing against a person by using invalid reasoning is not mocking. It is arguing with invalid reasoning. In order to successfully mock, one must apply, either explicitly or implicitly, valid reasoning. For example, if my response to NY has been to present an escalating scale of potential minimum wage rates, up to $100/hr I would have been mocking him. Here, the implicit and valid reasoning is the demonstration that his mode of reasoning cannot be valid because it produces bad fruit when used in alternate scenarios. On the other hand, if my reply had been simply to tell NY that is mother smells like an ape, then I would have simply been applying invalid reasoning.

Now go back to bed and don't try to invent ridiculous BS to defend bad reasoning. NY is intelligent. You are not. I'm sure that he can understand the flaw in his reasoning and move on to better and more meaningful arguments to support his position. You are doing him an injustice in the meantime.

I think you give NY too much credit. I doubt he understands the flaw in his reasoning nor do I believe he will move on to more meaningful arguments. Just my opinion.

 

[bianco]

My only problem with the minimum wage argument is that it once again shows that when the left is presented with a problem like income inequality their first inclination is to look at the poorest income segment and try and fix that. Ultimately it is no better than the supply side approach which looks at the other end of the spectrum.

It is about time we get a political party that starts solving problems by looking at the middle first. The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor. The middle class is generally a group of people we know will put work in and become productive members of society. They are a good investment.

True...but there must be a living minimum wage for all workers.

 

[Bombur]

That's a very foolish argument. That's like saying "If 10 mg of this medicine will make me feel better, then 30 mg will really make me feel great!"

Of course it was stupid. It is called mocking.

mocking - definition of mocking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

You're a damned fool. Arguing against a person by using invalid reasoning is not mocking. It is arguing with invalid reasoning. In order to successfully mock, one must apply, either explicitly or implicitly, valid reasoning. For example, if my response to NY has been to present an escalating scale of potential minimum wage rates, up to $100/hr I would have been mocking him. Here, the implicit and valid reasoning is the demonstration that his mode of reasoning cannot be valid because it produces bad fruit when used in alternate scenarios. On the other hand, if my reply had been simply to tell NY that is mother smells like an ape, then I would have simply been applying invalid reasoning.

Now go back to bed and don't try to invent ridiculous BS to defend bad reasoning. NY is intelligent. You are not. I'm sure that he can understand the flaw in his reasoning and move on to better and more meaningful arguments to support his position. You are doing him an injustice in the meantime.

LOL

Yeah he was still mocking him. I am hurt that you don't think I am intelligent.

 

[Bombur]

My only problem with the minimum wage argument is that it once again shows that when the left is presented with a problem like income inequality their first inclination is to look at the poorest income segment and try and fix that. Ultimately it is no better than the supply side approach which looks at the other end of the spectrum.

It is about time we get a political party that starts solving problems by looking at the middle first. The rich don't need help and the government already does a lot for the poor. The middle class is generally a group of people we know will put work in and become productive members of society. They are a good investment.

True...but there must be a living minimum wage for all workers.

I don't really have a problem with the argument as it stands alone. I have a problem with the fact that all the arguments the Dems seem to make are focused on one group.

 

[kwc57]

Families living off the minimum wage just isn't the issue that liberal like to make it out to be. If you are married with children and trying to pay a mortgage on the minimum wage, you've made some dreadfully bad mistakes in life. Even teenagers starting out at minimum wage get a bump in pay after a probation period.

Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

Perhaps surprisingly, not very many people earn minimum wage, and they make up a smaller share of the workforce than they used to. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.566 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly two million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.55 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

That group represents 4.7% of the nation’s 75.3 million hourly-paid workers and 2.8% of all workers. In 1979, when the BLS began regularly studying minimum-wage workers, they represented 13.4% of hourly workers and 7.9% of all wage and salary workers. (Bear in mind that the 3.55 million figure doesn’t include salaried workers. But BLS says relatively few salaried workers are paid at what would translate into below-minimum hourly rates. Also, 19 states besides the District have minimum wages higher than the federal standard; people who’d be minimum-wage workers in those states aren’t included in the 3.55 million total.)

People at or below the federal minimum are:

■Disproportionately young: 50.6% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
■Mostly (78%) white; fully half are white women.
■Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

They work in industries that you might expect: Just over half (51%) work in the leisure and hospitality industry, about 16% in retail, 9% in education and health services, and the rest scattered among different sectors. Broken down occupationally, the picture is similar: Nearly 44% are in food-preparation and serving-related occupations; 15% are in sales and related occupations, and the rest are scattered.

 

[Bombur]

Families living off the minimum wage just isn't the issue that liberal like to make it out to be. If you are married with children and trying to pay a mortgage on the minimum wage, you've made some dreadfully bad mistakes in life. Even teenagers starting out at minimum wage get a bump in pay after a probation period.

Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

Perhaps surprisingly, not very many people earn minimum wage, and they make up a smaller share of the workforce than they used to. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.566 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly two million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.55 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

That group represents 4.7% of the nation’s 75.3 million hourly-paid workers and 2.8% of all workers. In 1979, when the BLS began regularly studying minimum-wage workers, they represented 13.4% of hourly workers and 7.9% of all wage and salary workers. (Bear in mind that the 3.55 million figure doesn’t include salaried workers. But BLS says relatively few salaried workers are paid at what would translate into below-minimum hourly rates. Also, 19 states besides the District have minimum wages higher than the federal standard; people who’d be minimum-wage workers in those states aren’t included in the 3.55 million total.)

People at or below the federal minimum are:

■Disproportionately young: 50.6% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
■Mostly (78%) white; fully half are white women.
■Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

They work in industries that you might expect: Just over half (51%) work in the leisure and hospitality industry, about 16% in retail, 9% in education and health services, and the rest scattered among different sectors. Broken down occupationally, the picture is similar: Nearly 44% are in food-preparation and serving-related occupations; 15% are in sales and related occupations, and the rest are scattered.

An increase in the min wage would impact a lot more people than those making the min now.

 

[Ame®icano]

Besides, if a $10 minimum wage is a Good Thing, then why not $15 or $20?

If $8/hour is a better minimum wage than 10, why not 6, or 4, or 2, or zero?

Wouldn't we all better off if everyone worked for no money?

Yeah, why not zero?

Minimum wage should be zero. Employees should earn exactly how much their work is worth to the company.

Raising MW does nothing since poverty line will move along and beside that inflation will eat the "raise". I'm not even talking about nus product of killing jobs.

 

[DGS49]

None of the Leftists here have addressed the fundamental question: Where does the money come from?

Most minimum wage workers work for small companies headed by an individual or a family. These companies are generally not making anyone rich, and are nothing more than a substitute for a "job" that some entrepreneur has established: a small restaurant, landscaping business, store, security firm, or what have you. If the government mandates an increase in wages, to the extent that it can't be passed on to the customers, the owner must absorb it.

Do you not think the owner will fight like hell to maintain his personal income? You think he's just going to eat it and earn less? He would be a fool not to try to reduce his number of employees and/or hours, either by working people harder or finding another way to economize. For marginal businesses, the owner might just throw in the towel, close the business and go out and get himself a job. You think pizza shop owners are making Big Bucks?

If you are an adult making minimum wage year after year, there is a big, big personal problem somewhere, and that problem is not going to go away if Barry and The Progressives get you a raise. You need to either get promoted or get a better job, and THAT'S ON YOU!

As I have said often in this forum before, if you think the "solution" to poverty is for government to mandate a "living wage," then you really should push for that and don't be cheap about it. $15/hr should be the minimum you should push for.

It would be incredibly stupid, but Go For It!

Fortunately, even Democrats in Congress know how stupid it would be and it will never happen.

 

[DGS49]

Why doesn't unemployment go up when, for example individual cities and states establish their own minimum wage levels that are higher than the Federal MW?

Good question.

The reason is because this only happens in high cost-of-living states where the ACTUAL minimum wage - the wage below which you cannot get someone to work for you - is ALREADY higher than the federal minimum wage.

For example: I live in the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh, where the retailers and fast food joints can never get enough people to work for them. So they pay at least $8.50/hr, even for HS kids working after school. If they offer less, no one will even apply. Further more, they post the starting hourly rate in the window along with the Help Wanted sign.

So if the Mayor of McCandless Township Pennsylvania decided to raise the local minimum wage to $8.50/hr, it would be a nice gesture but it would be meaningless, since the ECONOMIC minimum wage is already there.

The states and cities that have raised their local MW's are only bringing it up the the actual economic MW that already prevails.

 

[kwc57]

Families living off the minimum wage just isn't the issue that liberal like to make it out to be. If you are married with children and trying to pay a mortgage on the minimum wage, you've made some dreadfully bad mistakes in life. Even teenagers starting out at minimum wage get a bump in pay after a probation period.

Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

Perhaps surprisingly, not very many people earn minimum wage, and they make up a smaller share of the workforce than they used to. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.566 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly two million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.55 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

That group represents 4.7% of the nation’s 75.3 million hourly-paid workers and 2.8% of all workers. In 1979, when the BLS began regularly studying minimum-wage workers, they represented 13.4% of hourly workers and 7.9% of all wage and salary workers. (Bear in mind that the 3.55 million figure doesn’t include salaried workers. But BLS says relatively few salaried workers are paid at what would translate into below-minimum hourly rates. Also, 19 states besides the District have minimum wages higher than the federal standard; people who’d be minimum-wage workers in those states aren’t included in the 3.55 million total.)

People at or below the federal minimum are:

■Disproportionately young: 50.6% are ages 16 to 24; 24% are teenagers (ages 16 to 19).
■Mostly (78%) white; fully half are white women.
■Largely part-time workers (64% of the total).

They work in industries that you might expect: Just over half (51%) work in the leisure and hospitality industry, about 16% in retail, 9% in education and health services, and the rest scattered among different sectors. Broken down occupationally, the picture is similar: Nearly 44% are in food-preparation and serving-related occupations; 15% are in sales and related occupations, and the rest are scattered.

An increase in the min wage would impact a lot more people than those making the min now.

Opinion and conjecture do not make it so.