The Man of Orce - was he really a horsee?

[Newtonian]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

 

[progressive hunter]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

those were lies of the evolutionist not mistakes,,,

 

[Newtonian]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

those were lies of the evolutionist not mistakes,,,

Where is your sense of humor! OK, I'll help. This is what I got from google search on man of Orce - top link:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y3N5MMC/?tag=usmb-20

And much more on man of force. More belly laughs (mine anyway). Of course, google inserted the "f" - seems they have a sense of humor too! Or are they robots?

Hmmm - robots with a sense of humor? I tend to get angry at robotic automated systems when they cannot understand what I am asking and instead give endless feedback loops. Very frustrating! Or very funny actually!

 

[progressive hunter]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

those were lies of the evolutionist not mistakes,,,

Where is your sense of humor! OK, I'll help. This is what I got from google search on man of Orce - top link:

Amazon.com: Man-Force Capsules: Health & Personal Care

And much more on man of force. More belly laughs (mine anyway). Of course, google inserted the "f" - seems they have a sense of humor too! Or are they robots?

Hmmm - robots with a sense of humor? I tend to get angry at robotic automated systems when they cannot understand what I am asking and instead give endless feedback loops. Very frustrating! Or very funny actually!

the best comedy is when its based on facts,,,

 

[Newtonian]

Hmmm - this forum format has a sense of humor too - I was able to delete the first result of man of orce from google search - but cannot delete the following images. Perhaps I should change thread title to Man of Orce, was he a donkee!

 

[Newtonian]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

those were lies of the evolutionist not mistakes,,,

Where is your sense of humor! OK, I'll help. This is what I got from google search on man of Orce - top link:

Amazon.com: Man-Force Capsules: Health & Personal Care

And much more on man of force. More belly laughs (mine anyway). Of course, google inserted the "f" - seems they have a sense of humor too! Or are they robots?

Hmmm - robots with a sense of humor? I tend to get angry at robotic automated systems when they cannot understand what I am asking and instead give endless feedback loops. Very frustrating! Or very funny actually!

the best comedy is when its based on facts,,,

So true. Another example from google search - evidence from the Bible about Orce - actually Ecclesiasticus of the apocrpha - a rather funny typo:

The Holy Bible, Containing the Old Testament and the New: ...
books.google.com › books

10 A fool lifteth up his »orce with laughter ; but a wise man doth scarce smile a little, ai Learning is unto a wife manas an ornament of gold, and like a bracelet ...
1792

But it is true that some men lifted up the Orce skull with laughter.

Hmmm - uh oh! I guess I should just smile a little!

 

[Newtonian]

OK, I found via google search this serious/funny thesis about the man of Orce:

A Country’s Obsession During the Construction of a Democracy: "Is the Orce Man our ancestor?"

In 1983, a skull fragment found at a site in the village of Orce (Granada, Spain) was presented. It became the remains of the first European, the Orce Man. One year later, part of its discoverers and other scientists retracted the claim and attributed the bone to a member of the genus of...

www.uab.cat

In the article we have the scientific testimony of Marie Antoinette (I thought she had died earlier - uh oh!)

Excerpt:

"To make it clear we must return to a few months after the presentation of the fragment. In April 1984, the inside part of the skull gave a surprise to the trio of discoverers. After separating it from the rock, a ridge appeared that clashed with the supposed human characteristics. Given this dilemma, the three researchers decided to take the fragment to Paris to show it again to the de Lumley couple. There, Marie-Antoinette, an expert on anatomy, reached the conclusion that the famous Orce man belonged, in fact, to a member of the genus of prehistoric horses and donkeys, Equus. Agustí and Moyà-Solà accepted the verdict of the French senior researchers, but Gibert rejected it. Given this rejection, the de Lumleys made a crucial movement. The next day, the newspaper El Pais published, on the front cover, the doubts regarding the Orce Man, quoting Marie-Antoinette as its scientific source. A major public controversy exploded. The early public attention given to the discovery led to a profusion of news with the dispute. The Orce Man became the Orce Donkey and Gibert emerged as the only defender of the hominid. In 1987, Agustí and Moyà-Solà published the first scientific paper presenting the fragment as being attributed to the genus Equus.?"

Hmmm - expert on anatomy? Actually she lost her head! Oops - the wrong Marie!

Hmmm? A donkee or a horse?

The source has the following testimony depicted on the front cover of El Papus:

​

		Figure 3: Cover of the old satirical magazine El Papus, num. 525, June 1984.

*

 

[bluzman61]

Well, there is another thread on errors by evolutionists - but it is to be taken seriously. I mean this thread to generate some belly laughs!

So, was the missing link known as the man of Orce really a horse?

See our article on this in its entirely here: (I'm not the only one with a sense of humor!)

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Of course, this was back in ancient times - 1983-1984 to be specific!

A preliminary excerpt to set the stage for belly laughs:

"TOMÁS SERRANO, an elderly, weather-beaten Spanish farmer, had believed for many years that his Andalusian smallholding concealed something unique. His plow often unearthed exotic bones and teeth that certainly did not belong to any local cattle. But when he spoke of his finds in the village, nobody took much notice—at least not until 1980.

In that year a team of paleontologists arrived to investigate the region. Before long they uncovered a veritable treasure trove of fossils: bones of bears, elephants, hippopotamuses, and other animals—all deposited in a small area that was apparently a dried-up swamp. It was in 1983, however, when the prolific site jumped into the international headlines.

A small yet singular fragment of skull had recently been discovered. It was heralded as “the oldest human remains discovered in Europe and Asia.” Calculating it to be between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old, some scientists expected it to usher in “a revolution in the study of the human species.”

Wow! A missing link some 1 million years old - the Man of Orce! Or was he really a horsee?

Read on if you have a sense of humor!

Well, rumors had it that he wasn't ACTUALLY a horse, but was HUNG like a horse. Of course! A VERY distant relative of Ron Jeremy perhaps.....................or possibly John Holmes...........

 

[Newtonian]

OK, a little more fun from our article - try reading this with a straight face!

Scientists Take Public for a Ride — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Excerpt:

"June 11, 1983, saw the fossil’s public presentation in Spain. Prominent Spanish, French, and British scientists had already vouched for its authenticity, and political support was quickly forthcoming. A Spanish monthly enthused: “Spain, and especially Granada, is now at the forefront of [human] antiquity in the macrocontinent of Eurasia.”

What was the “Man of Orce” really like? Scientists described him as a recent emigrant from Africa. This particular fossil, it was said, belonged to a young man who was about 17 years old and five feet [1.5 m] tall. Probably he was a hunter and collector who may not have yet learned to use fire. Likely he had already developed a rudimentary language and religion. He ate fruit, cereals, berries, and insects, along with the occasional remains of animals that hyenas had killed.

Misgivings About the Identification

On May 12, 1984, only two weeks before an international scientific seminar on the subject, serious doubts arose as to the fragment’s origin. After the meticulous removal of calcareous deposits from the interior part of the skull, the paleontologists found a disconcerting “crest.” Human skulls do not have such a crest. The seminar was postponed....."

All seriousness aside, note from the skull the powerful evidence that this was a boy five feet tall! Hmmm - the evidence comes short!

Note also that the skull provided evidence the boy was an immigrant from Africa - apparently a legal immigrant since he had not been vetted or gone to the vet.

He also ate cereals - Cheerio! Hmmm - with berries? Of course, the evidence was clear from the berried skull!

Note also the evidence of the boys rudimentary religion - perhaps into in-sects?

Hmmm - perhaps it was a typo and they meant he was a ruminant? All thins being equus!

Of course, we mustn't forget the evidence of the local laughing Hyenas!

Curious, though how the eminent scientists determined the man of Orce was a boy rather than a girl???

Notice the humility of the scientists in noting this donkey

may not have learned to use fire yet!

Oops - I meant horsee!

 

[Newtonian]

OK, I'll try to be serious.

The scientists involved dated the Man of Orce to between 900,000 and 1,600,000 years old our article noted. However, talk origins notes it could be 1,800,000 years old. From talkorigins (which is pro-evolution and anti-creationist):

Creationist Arguments: Orce Man

www.talkorigins.org

Excerpts:

"Gish (1985) tells the story of "Orce Man", a fossil discovered in 1982 near the Spanish town of Orce and claimed to be a human cranial fragment. The fossil comes from the Venta Micena site, and is designated VM-0. A symposium on it was planned for late May, 1984. Earlier that month, says Gish (citing a UPI news report from May 14, 1984):

"When French experts revealed the fact that "Orce Man" was most likely a skull fragment from a four-month-old donkey, embarrassed Spanish authorities sent out 500 letters cancelling invitations to the symposium."

Two French scientists had suggested the fragment "may have come" from a donkey. Another scientist quoted in the news report admitted there was some doubt as to the bone's identity, but thought it was still quite likely human. A third scientist quoted in another news report from Associated Press claimed it was definitely humanoid. ..."

Talk origins then notes a fairer assessment is that the skull fragments are unidentified. Sorry - I couldn't resist! Talkorigins goes on:

"By the next paragraph, Gish is exaggerating even further, and is calling the disputed fragment a "donkey's skull". It is not a skull, and it was not necessarily from a donkey."

Hmmm - not a skull? Perhaps it was a foot! I think the find doesn't have a leg to stand on! Obviously talkorigins is mistaken since it admits repeated that is is a skull/cranial fragment.

Talk origins cannot resist this condemnation of creationists reporting on the donkey of Orce, to wit:

"It is easy to score cheap rhetorical points by implying that scientists are so incompetent that they cannot tell the difference between a human and a donkey."

Well, the point is inexpensive, not sure it is rhetorical - but it sure is hilarious!

As proof creationists are wrong, talk origins goes on to document proof of the identity of the horse of Orce (sorry, I can't resist this) citing eminent scientific researchers who are able to tell the difference between an human and a donkey - the talkorigins article confirms the scientists can tell the difference between a horse and a donkey as well (Just kidding of course) - to wit:

"A fractal analysis of the skull sutures by Gibert and Palmqvist (1995) strongly indicated that the fragment was not from an equine. Also in 1995, an international symposium was eventually held at Orce to discuss this and other material, and a number of workers there also suggested that VM-0 was a hominid fossil (Zihlman and Lowenstein 1996).

Two articles appearing in July 1997 disputed that claim, however. Palmqvist (1997), citing errors in the paper that he had coauthored with Gibert, now claimed that the fractal evidence was clearly in favor of an equid origin for VM-0, and Moya-Sola and Kohler (1997) made the same claim based on an anatomical study. Even this has not resolved the debate, because a later paper (Borja et al. 1997) has argued in favor of VM-0 being a hominid, based on immunological studies of fossil proteins performed at two independent laboratories...."

That was 23 years ago but notice that the most recent report (Borja et al. 1997) is later than the other earlier reports cited which were from 1997! Note the ancient 1995 reports that the Man of Orce was not an equine but from a hominid. But then two other reports cited errors in the Gibert report and that the fractal evidence clearly was in favor of an equid origin which was confirmed in the other pro-equid report from 1997. It should be noted that Palmqvist coauthored the Gibert report but now contradicted that report!

Bottom line - scientists can clearly tell the difference between a donkey and a horse but not between a donkey and a human. Just kidding of course!

to be contrinued.

 

[Newtonian]

OK, you all, I am in a more serious mood today. So I wanted to share with you this clip from Columbia University:

Orce Man

"Orce Man

1982, a skull fragment was found near Orce, Spain.
Instant claim that it was the earliest human fossil in Europe.
1984, some claimed it to be a infant ape and others a donkey.
1997, debate still going and not yet resolved.

Orce Man baby ape or donkey?"

In my previous quotes the disagreement among scientists was whether the Man of Orce/Orce Man was a donkey, man or horse. That some claim he was an ape is new to me. It reminds me of the debate as to whether Australopithecines were ape or human. That I have studied more in depth and concluded Australopithecines were ...

I'll stop there - I am trying to be serious but .....

 

[Newtonian]

This is an interesting thesis. It shows how politics was/is involved not only in the Orce Man controversy but also how the finds are presented to the public, how public opinion is involved in how the find is presented, and what this has to do with acceptance by the scientific community. Here is the link:

Orce man: a public controversy in Spanish human origins research, 1982-2007

Autoría: Miquel Carandell Baruzzi. Dirección de la Tesis: Oliver Hochadel. Lectura: Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona en 2015. Tesis doctoral en Dialnet.

dialnet.unirioja.es

 

[Newtonian]

OK, my sense of humor is back in full swing which prompts this:

Scientists have given the Man of Orce a number of dates.

But he was only 16 or 17 years old! Hmmm - what was the minimum age for dating and marriage back then?