The Lies and Arrogance of Evolutionists

[Foxfyre]

I will totally give you that, Foxfyre. I agree 100%.

I'll simply add that if God IS, I'll bet anyone a dollar that He/She is as disappointed in the "Holy Books" of humanity and how they have been used during the last 10,000 years as I am.

Based on that assumption, I can only conclude that: If God IS, He either does not care, He is impotent, or our history of suffering is EXACTLY what He wanted. Either way, The "God" of The Bible turns out to be as big a joke as the "God" of The Koran, the "Gods" of the heathens and the original "Gods" of Earth, Wind & Fire.

YouTube - ‪Earth Wind And Fire - Shining Star(1975)‬‏

Simply put, mugs like me can't lose - we can have our carnal cake and eat it too.

Or, there is NOTHING to look forward to after death and, whether it's a gift from Mom or Dad, a life spent worshiping a book and not lived with gusto and risk represents a waste.

But mugs like you can learn just like mugs like me learned that the fundamentalist view of the Bible is deeply flawed. I have concluded that we have none of the original manuscripts because the one I called God knew that those manuscripts would be worshipped like idols. But in the hands of a dedicated and competent scholar willing to look at the larger picture, the Bible becomes a magnificent collection of literature including law, history, allegory, metaphor, poetry, imagery, wisdom slogans, prophecy, and the deepest and most anguished experiences of people trying to get through life then as we sometimes endure trying to get through life now.

I think a Creator God who created all of this and all of us certainly does care for many reasons but not the least of which is our ability to appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe and our ability to love and care and appreciate even people, creatures, other forms of life we never will know or that which we will never experience. Without that I am quite sure that we would have utilized our capacity to destroy everything by now. And we have messed things up royally quite a bit and I think a Creator God had to allow that in order for us to experience freedom and love which, for most of us, is all that makes life worth living.

But that is if one recognizes and accepts a Creator God.

There is also the school that all that exists is itself a living thing that controls all or part of all that has been, is, or will be. Or that some undefinable or unexplainable intelligence--an intelligence that is not necessarily a personal God such as the God of the Bible--is guiding the process.

It is that possibility that both the religious fundamentalists and the science religionists so strongly reject because it requires an open mind to conceive of such a possibility.

The problem is you see wonder and beauty in the universe that does not exist. The universe is not some smooth-running well-designed precision clock. It is a hodgepodge of random collisions and explosions. A perpetual commotion machine, if you will. If a designer designed it that way, it surely is a reflection of the insanity or incompetence of the designer.

And your trouble seems to be that you are so bogged down in some kind of scientific religious fundamentalist dogma, you are unable to see the wonder and beauty that is in the universe.

 

[AVG-JOE]

So you'd support publicly funded religious schools then?

I support universal school choice. You?

I'd like clarification on this if you don't mind. In reading your posts, it seems to me that your position would, in effect, make it impossible to teach anything in school until it had been approved by every parent sending a child there. Or, perhaps, simply the abolition of public schooling. Rather than assume I am correctly interpreting your remarks I would ask that you explain it in a bit more detail.

The parents who give a shit do show up at school board meetings. Federal purse strings hamstring the local school boards a lot, but parents who have the resources to choose the school district their kids will go through and the resources to get involved, can create a great learning environment for their kids.

The best news is that 'enough resources' is a middle class lifestyle. I've seen involved parents in both my sisters and their kids are public school educated and they're fucking geniuses. Seriously. One of my nephews is going to make Huggys idea of electricity from moon helium a reality.

I'll ask if he can name it "Huggy Power" if you want, Bro.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The problem with your perception here is that it doesn't matter 'which god' or how we humans choose to perceive a god or describe a god. If there IS a Creator God he is the real deal whether we understand or perceive him accurately or not and in spite of whatever we choose to label or call him. If there IS a Creator God he will not be defined nor dismissed by that which he created no matter how arrogant we might be in attempting to do so.

The argument made in the thesis of this thread, however, includes the bare truth that we mortals cannot prove that a Creator God exists even if we experience that Creator God up close and personal.

And the other side of that same argument is that science cannot use science to explain away, falsify, or even cast credible skepticism re the existence or non existence of a Creator God.

And finally, despite the determination of religious fundamentalists and science religionists to reject the concept, there needs be no Creator God in order for intelligent design to exist, and if intelligent design should include a Creator God, that god will not necessarily conform to the description of it as we find in the Bible or Qu'ran or other religious texts.

I will totally give you that, Foxfyre. I agree 100%.

I'll simply add that if God IS, I'll bet anyone a dollar that He/She is as disappointed in the "Holy Books" of humanity and how they have been used during the last 10,000 years as I am.

Based on that assumption, I can only conclude that: If God IS, He either does not care, He is impotent, or our history of suffering is EXACTLY what He wanted. Either way, The "God" of The Bible turns out to be as big a joke as the "God" of The Koran, the "Gods" of the heathens and the original "Gods" of Earth, Wind & Fire.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFl71IiZ1sk]YouTube - ‪Earth Wind And Fire - Shining Star(1975)‬‏[/ame]

Simply put, mugs like me can't lose - we can have our carnal cake and eat it too.

Or, there is NOTHING to look forward to after death and, whether it's a gift from Mom or Dad, a life spent worshiping a book and not lived with gusto and risk represents a waste.

Actually, I couldn't improve on Foxfyre's summation. However, I would encourage you to seek Christ. He does live and love you. He's the real deal. I knocked on that door, and He did answer.

While I appreciate your suggestion, and believe me, I do understand your heart when you say that... Been there, done that, moved on.

What ever rocks your World though, Bro'.

 

[Yoda]

"scientific religious fundamentalist dogma"

What??? One of these things are not like the others.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The problem with your perception here is that it doesn't matter 'which god' or how we humans choose to perceive a god or describe a god. If there IS a Creator God he is the real deal whether we understand or perceive him accurately or not and in spite of whatever we choose to label or call him. If there IS a Creator God he will not be defined nor dismissed by that which he created no matter how arrogant we might be in attempting to do so.

The argument made in the thesis of this thread, however, includes the bare truth that we mortals cannot prove that a Creator God exists even if we experience that Creator God up close and personal.

And the other side of that same argument is that science cannot use science to explain away, falsify, or even cast credible skepticism re the existence or non existence of a Creator God.

And finally, despite the determination of religious fundamentalists and science religionists to reject the concept, there needs be no Creator God in order for intelligent design to exist, and if intelligent design should include a Creator God, that god will not necessarily conform to the description of it as we find in the Bible or Qu'ran or other religious texts.

I will totally give you that, Foxfyre. I agree 100%.

I'll simply add that if God IS, I'll bet anyone a dollar that He/She is as disappointed in the "Holy Books" of humanity and how they have been used during the last 10,000 years as I am.

Based on that assumption, I can only conclude that: If God IS, He either does not care, He is impotent, or our history of suffering is EXACTLY what He wanted. Either way, The "God" of The Bible turns out to be as big a joke as the "God" of The Koran, the "Gods" of the heathens and the original "Gods" of Earth, Wind & Fire.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFl71IiZ1sk]YouTube - ‪Earth Wind And Fire - Shining Star(1975)‬‏[/ame]

Simply put, mugs like me can't lose - we can have our carnal cake and eat it too.

Or, there is NOTHING to look forward to after death and, whether it's a gift from Mom or Dad, a life spent worshiping a book and not lived with gusto and risk represents a waste.

But mugs like you can learn just like mugs like me learned that the fundamentalist view of the Bible is deeply flawed. I have concluded that we have none of the original manuscripts because the one I called God knew that those manuscripts would be worshipped like idols. But in the hands of a dedicated and competent scholar willing to look at the larger picture, the Bible becomes a magnificent collection of literature including law, history, allegory, metaphor, poetry, imagery, wisdom slogans, prophecy, and the deepest and most anguished experiences of people trying to get through life then as we sometimes endure trying to get through life now.

I think a Creator God who created all of this and all of us certainly does care for many reasons but not the least of which is our ability to appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe and our ability to love and care and appreciate even people, creatures, other forms of life we never will know or that which we will never experience. Without that I am quite sure that we would have utilized our capacity to destroy everything by now. And we have messed things up royally quite a bit and I think a Creator God had to allow that in order for us to experience freedom and love which, for most of us, is all that makes life worth living.

But that is if one recognizes and accepts a Creator God.

There is also the school that all that exists is itself a living thing that controls all or part of all that has been, is, or will be. Or that some undefinable or unexplainable intelligence--an intelligence that is not necessarily a personal God such as the God of the Bible--is guiding the process.

It is that possibility that both the religious fundamentalists and the science religionists so strongly reject because it requires an open mind to conceive of such a possibility.

The competency of the scholar need only be judged by the scholar to find beautiful literature in the collection of books commonly referred to as 'The Bible', but it's no more Divinely inspired than the words you're reading right now.

Trust me when I tell you that I have just as much proof of my words being inspired by God as any writer who contributed to The Bible or The Koran.

A Creator God I can appreciate. That He told some human involved in the worlds second oldest profession to write shit down on His behalf... That I don't buy into any more. 10+ years was enough time to waste chasing that ghost.

 

[BolshevikHunter]

"scientific religious fundamentalist dogma"

What??? One of these things are not like the others.

Wow! There might be some hope for you after all buddy. ~BH

 

[edthecynic]

But mugs like you can learn just like mugs like me learned that the fundamentalist view of the Bible is deeply flawed. I have concluded that we have none of the original manuscripts because the one I called God knew that those manuscripts would be worshipped like idols. But in the hands of a dedicated and competent scholar willing to look at the larger picture, the Bible becomes a magnificent collection of literature including law, history, allegory, metaphor, poetry, imagery, wisdom slogans, prophecy, and the deepest and most anguished experiences of people trying to get through life then as we sometimes endure trying to get through life now.

I think a Creator God who created all of this and all of us certainly does care for many reasons but not the least of which is our ability to appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe and our ability to love and care and appreciate even people, creatures, other forms of life we never will know or that which we will never experience. Without that I am quite sure that we would have utilized our capacity to destroy everything by now. And we have messed things up royally quite a bit and I think a Creator God had to allow that in order for us to experience freedom and love which, for most of us, is all that makes life worth living.

But that is if one recognizes and accepts a Creator God.

There is also the school that all that exists is itself a living thing that controls all or part of all that has been, is, or will be. Or that some undefinable or unexplainable intelligence--an intelligence that is not necessarily a personal God such as the God of the Bible--is guiding the process.

It is that possibility that both the religious fundamentalists and the science religionists so strongly reject because it requires an open mind to conceive of such a possibility.

The problem is you see wonder and beauty in the universe that does not exist. The universe is not some smooth-running well-designed precision clock. It is a hodgepodge of random collisions and explosions. A perpetual commotion machine, if you will. If a designer designed it that way, it surely is a reflection of the insanity or incompetence of the designer.

And your trouble seems to be that you are so bogged down in some kind of scientific religious fundamentalist dogma, you are unable to see the wonder and beauty that is in the universe.

Hey, I see the wonder and beauty of random collisions and explosions as much as the next guy, I just don't see them as the product of an Intelligent Designer!

 

[Foxfyre]

I will totally give you that, Foxfyre. I agree 100%.

I'll simply add that if God IS, I'll bet anyone a dollar that He/She is as disappointed in the "Holy Books" of humanity and how they have been used during the last 10,000 years as I am.

Based on that assumption, I can only conclude that: If God IS, He either does not care, He is impotent, or our history of suffering is EXACTLY what He wanted. Either way, The "God" of The Bible turns out to be as big a joke as the "God" of The Koran, the "Gods" of the heathens and the original "Gods" of Earth, Wind & Fire.

YouTube - ‪Earth Wind And Fire - Shining Star(1975)‬‏

Simply put, mugs like me can't lose - we can have our carnal cake and eat it too.

Or, there is NOTHING to look forward to after death and, whether it's a gift from Mom or Dad, a life spent worshiping a book and not lived with gusto and risk represents a waste.

But mugs like you can learn just like mugs like me learned that the fundamentalist view of the Bible is deeply flawed. I have concluded that we have none of the original manuscripts because the one I called God knew that those manuscripts would be worshipped like idols. But in the hands of a dedicated and competent scholar willing to look at the larger picture, the Bible becomes a magnificent collection of literature including law, history, allegory, metaphor, poetry, imagery, wisdom slogans, prophecy, and the deepest and most anguished experiences of people trying to get through life then as we sometimes endure trying to get through life now.

I think a Creator God who created all of this and all of us certainly does care for many reasons but not the least of which is our ability to appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe and our ability to love and care and appreciate even people, creatures, other forms of life we never will know or that which we will never experience. Without that I am quite sure that we would have utilized our capacity to destroy everything by now. And we have messed things up royally quite a bit and I think a Creator God had to allow that in order for us to experience freedom and love which, for most of us, is all that makes life worth living.

But that is if one recognizes and accepts a Creator God.

There is also the school that all that exists is itself a living thing that controls all or part of all that has been, is, or will be. Or that some undefinable or unexplainable intelligence--an intelligence that is not necessarily a personal God such as the God of the Bible--is guiding the process.

It is that possibility that both the religious fundamentalists and the science religionists so strongly reject because it requires an open mind to conceive of such a possibility.

The competency of the scholar need only be judged by the scholar to find beautiful literature in the collection of books commonly referred to as 'The Bible', but it's no more Divinely inspired than the words you're reading right now.

Trust me when I tell you that I have just as much proof of my words being inspired by God as any writer who contributed to The Bible or The Koran.

A Creator God I can appreciate. That He told some human involved in the worlds second oldest profession to write shit down on His behalf... That I don't buy into any more. 10+ years was enough time to waste chasing that ghost.

I chased the 'ghosts' too for more than a decade. I looked at EVERYTHING among all the world's great religions and more than a few more obscure ones. I really wanted to find a substitute for Christianity as I perceived it to be hopelessly flawed. And I found that ALL religions contain truths. And ALL religions get some of it wrong. Eventually I arrived at a point of truth I could neither deny nor explain away. And I remain Christian.

What is required to experience, for want of a better term, a divine intelligence is to allow God to be God. When we insist on establishing our own parameters for who God is and what he must be, we close ourselves off from the divine intelligence. And it becomes quite easy to just throw up our hands and deny that it exists.

Once our mind is open and we accept that we know so little compared to all there is to know--that is true of religious faith and it is true of science--a whole new universe of possibilities and realities is opened up to us.

We don't have to believe. We only have to be willing to let it take over without any conditions of time, place, or process and any preconceived expectations of results.

Once a person does that, he or she will become a firm ID-er. And it's great. I thoroughly recommend it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

But mugs like you can learn just like mugs like me learned that the fundamentalist view of the Bible is deeply flawed. I have concluded that we have none of the original manuscripts because the one I called God knew that those manuscripts would be worshipped like idols. But in the hands of a dedicated and competent scholar willing to look at the larger picture, the Bible becomes a magnificent collection of literature including law, history, allegory, metaphor, poetry, imagery, wisdom slogans, prophecy, and the deepest and most anguished experiences of people trying to get through life then as we sometimes endure trying to get through life now.

I think a Creator God who created all of this and all of us certainly does care for many reasons but not the least of which is our ability to appreciate the wonder and beauty of the universe and our ability to love and care and appreciate even people, creatures, other forms of life we never will know or that which we will never experience. Without that I am quite sure that we would have utilized our capacity to destroy everything by now. And we have messed things up royally quite a bit and I think a Creator God had to allow that in order for us to experience freedom and love which, for most of us, is all that makes life worth living.

But that is if one recognizes and accepts a Creator God.

There is also the school that all that exists is itself a living thing that controls all or part of all that has been, is, or will be. Or that some undefinable or unexplainable intelligence--an intelligence that is not necessarily a personal God such as the God of the Bible--is guiding the process.

It is that possibility that both the religious fundamentalists and the science religionists so strongly reject because it requires an open mind to conceive of such a possibility.

The competency of the scholar need only be judged by the scholar to find beautiful literature in the collection of books commonly referred to as 'The Bible', but it's no more Divinely inspired than the words you're reading right now.

Trust me when I tell you that I have just as much proof of my words being inspired by God as any writer who contributed to The Bible or The Koran.

A Creator God I can appreciate. That He told some human involved in the worlds second oldest profession to write shit down on His behalf... That I don't buy into any more. 10+ years was enough time to waste chasing that ghost.

I chased the 'ghosts' too for more than a decade. I looked at EVERYTHING among all the world's great religions and more than a few more obscure ones. I really wanted to find a substitute for Christianity as I perceived it to be hopelessly flawed. And I found that ALL religions contain truths. And ALL religions get some of it wrong. Eventually I arrived at a point of truth I could neither deny nor explain away. And I remain Christian.

What is required to experience, for want of a better term, a divine intelligence is to allow God to be God. When we insist on establishing our own parameters for who God is and what he must be, we close ourselves off from the divine intelligence. And it becomes quite easy to just throw up our hands and deny that it exists.

Once our mind is open and we accept that we know so little compared to all there is to know--that is true of religious faith and it is true of science--a whole new universe of possibilities and realities is opened up to us.

We don't have to believe. We only have to be willing to let it take over without any conditions of time, place, or process and any preconceived expectations of results.

Once a person does that, he or she will become a firm ID-er. And it's great. I thoroughly recommend it.

VERY curious: What truth led you back and solidified your belief in Jesus as The Christ?

For me it was trusting in the 'Divine' inspiration of The Bible - You said yourself that, in spite of ALL religions containing truths, ALL religions get some of it wrong.

For any book to be Divinely inspired, wouldn't a prerequisite be 100% 'not wrong'?

If The Bible isn't Divinely inspired, what's the point of viewing the stories as anything more than a collection of literature that fills the spectrum from boring to fascinating?

Couple that with the understanding that the stories of the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth were first committed to paper no less than 70 years after his death, and the bullshit that history proves people are willing to write down as 'gospel' to make their political point, and I call bullshit on the whole thing.

Now, that's just the humble opinion of this average American Joe. I understand your passion and I defend your right to believe whatever it is that you choose to believe in. I simply am just as passionate about spreading what I consider to be the truth about that period in history.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

I will totally give you that, Foxfyre. I agree 100%.

I'll simply add that if God IS, I'll bet anyone a dollar that He/She is as disappointed in the "Holy Books" of humanity and how they have been used during the last 10,000 years as I am.

Based on that assumption, I can only conclude that: If God IS, He either does not care, He is impotent, or our history of suffering is EXACTLY what He wanted. Either way, The "God" of The Bible turns out to be as big a joke as the "God" of The Koran, the "Gods" of the heathens and the original "Gods" of Earth, Wind & Fire.

YouTube - ‪Earth Wind And Fire - Shining Star(1975)‬‏

Simply put, mugs like me can't lose - we can have our carnal cake and eat it too.

Or, there is NOTHING to look forward to after death and, whether it's a gift from Mom or Dad, a life spent worshiping a book and not lived with gusto and risk represents a waste.

Actually, I couldn't improve on Foxfyre's summation. However, I would encourage you to seek Christ. He does live and love you. He's the real deal. I knocked on that door, and He did answer.

While I appreciate your suggestion, and believe me, I do understand your heart when you say that... Been there, done that, moved on.

What ever rocks your World though, Bro'.

Fair enough.

 

[Foxfyre]

The competency of the scholar need only be judged by the scholar to find beautiful literature in the collection of books commonly referred to as 'The Bible', but it's no more Divinely inspired than the words you're reading right now.

Trust me when I tell you that I have just as much proof of my words being inspired by God as any writer who contributed to The Bible or The Koran.

A Creator God I can appreciate. That He told some human involved in the worlds second oldest profession to write shit down on His behalf... That I don't buy into any more. 10+ years was enough time to waste chasing that ghost.

I chased the 'ghosts' too for more than a decade. I looked at EVERYTHING among all the world's great religions and more than a few more obscure ones. I really wanted to find a substitute for Christianity as I perceived it to be hopelessly flawed. And I found that ALL religions contain truths. And ALL religions get some of it wrong. Eventually I arrived at a point of truth I could neither deny nor explain away. And I remain Christian.

What is required to experience, for want of a better term, a divine intelligence is to allow God to be God. When we insist on establishing our own parameters for who God is and what he must be, we close ourselves off from the divine intelligence. And it becomes quite easy to just throw up our hands and deny that it exists.

Once our mind is open and we accept that we know so little compared to all there is to know--that is true of religious faith and it is true of science--a whole new universe of possibilities and realities is opened up to us.

We don't have to believe. We only have to be willing to let it take over without any conditions of time, place, or process and any preconceived expectations of results.

Once a person does that, he or she will become a firm ID-er. And it's great. I thoroughly recommend it.

VERY curious: What truth led you back and solidified your belief in Jesus as The Christ?

For me it was trusting in the 'Divine' inspiration of The Bible - You said yourself that, in spite of ALL religions containing truths, ALL religions get some of it wrong.

For any book to be Divinely inspired, wouldn't a prerequisite be 100% 'not wrong'?

If The Bible isn't Divinely inspired, what's the point of viewing the stories as anything more than a collection of literature that fills the spectrum from boring to fascinating?

Couple that with the understanding that the stories of the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth were first committed to paper no less than 70 years after his death, and the bullshit that history proves people are willing to write down as 'gospel' to make their political point, and I call bullshit on the whole thing.

Now, that's just the humble opinion of this average American Joe. I understand your passion and I defend your right to believe whatever it is that you choose to believe in. I simply am just as passionate about spreading what I consider to be the truth about that period in history.

The pivotal point for me was being willing to let go of ALL preconceived notions about what God is, what God isn't, what the Bible is, what the Bible isn't, what the Christ is, what the Christ isn't etc. and just invite a larger intelligence to make itself known however and whenver it should choose to do that. There is no way to adequately explain what a personal encounter/experience with the Divine Intelligence is like, but it pretty well solidifies its own reality once experienced. And once experienced I could no longer explain away that reality or deny what I finally came to know and understand at least on a limited basis.

The whole key to understanding the divine inspiration of the Bible is to do the really difficult and intense study necessary to read the words through the eyes of those who wrote them. I do believe it was divinely inspired and that is why it remains the No. #1 best selling book of all time since the first manuscripts were produced to the present. And that's after millenia of effort to distort it, snuff it out, deny it to the people. But even more than that, it is observance of those who read the words through the eyes of those who wrote it who come to know the Divine Presence in the process.

Trying to read and interpret the Bible with 21st Century perspective and experience alone is a fool's folly. But competent Bible study does wonders to give us a fresh perspective and understanding and experience of an ancient people and what importance that has for us now.

Again it requires an open mind and a willingness to set aside all our biases and prejudices and any preconceived notions of how it is supposed to be. And that also opens the mind to many possibilities of Intelligent Design and why that makes as much sense as anything we understand of formal religion or science.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Which one is The One True God? He certainly hasn't made it clear by . . . miracle. . . .

Stepping away from science. . . .

Well, I certainly wouldn't agree with that. I believe that Christ did rise from the dead and that this historical event is well-documented.

Dozens of persons claimed to have personally witnessed the resurrected Christ, and these persons claim that yet hundreds of others personally witnessed the resurrected Christ and His ascension. I think the argument that these people suffered from some form of mass hysteria is absurd, especially given the fact that they were mired in fear and despair just a few days before the alleged event. Yet suddenly, they were prepared to brave certain imprisonment or death as they bolding proclaimed . . . a lie?

What precisely was the substance of this sudden transformation?

A sudden death wish over nothing? A sudden pandemic of madness or sociopathlogy over something they didn't anticipate, never expected, in spite of the fact that scripture, written hundreds of years before, and Christ Himself told them the Messiah would suffer, be slain and rise again? They thought it was all metaphor! LOL!

Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the best; the alternate explanation is incredible.

But that's just me.

Further, there are at least 456 prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the person and the life of the Messiah, with more than five dozen of them being quite specific—variously, regarding the place of birth, the time of birth, the lineage of birth, the circumstances surrounding the birth, specific events in the life of the Messiah, the manner of death and so on. Christ fulfilled them all. The mathematical probability of one person fulfilling just eight of these prophecies is one in 10^17. The probability of fulfilling 48 of them is one in 10^157. . . .

But, ultimately, each must make up his own mind about these things and many others.

But here's the thing. I knew nothing about these things before my conversion. I wasn't thinking about the probabilities of this or that, what made sense and what didn't. I was simply willing to know the truth. I read a passage regarding the claims made by Christ Himself . . . and suddenly I could "see" them and knew them to be true. And I knew that the moment I knocked on that door without any preconceived notions, beyond these fundamental claims, He would open it. And of course He did! None of this came to me from within. It all came to me from without.

 

[geauxtohell]

Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the best; the alternate explanation is incredible.

But that's just me.

Occam's razor would not support the notion that a person was re-animated. That's the alternate explanation that is incredible.

It would be more simple to say that there was a vast conspiracy among Christ's followers to hide the body and concoct a conspiracy than to say that a body was dead for three days and suddenly was made to be alive.

Not that I feel the need to argue the gospel, but if you choose to believe the gospel, you do so as an article of faith. You can't try and enter logic and reason into the matter.

It's the same with the virgin birth. In religion, the miraculous occurs as a matter of course. It defies logic, which is why faith is the central tenant of all religion.

 

[JScott]

Which one is The One True God? He certainly hasn't made it clear by . . . miracle. . . .

Stepping away from science. . . .

Well, I certainly wouldn't agree with that. I believe that Christ did rise from the dead and that this historical event is well-documented.

Dozens of persons claimed to have personally witnessed the resurrected Christ, and these persons claim that yet hundreds of others personally witnessed the resurrected Christ and His ascension. I think the argument that these people suffered from some form of mass hysteria is absurd, especially given the fact that they were mired in fear and despair just a few days before the alleged event. Yet suddenly, they were prepared to brave certain imprisonment or death as they bolding proclaimed . . . a lie?

What precisely was the substance of this sudden transformation?

A sudden death wish over nothing? A sudden pandemic of madness or sociopathlogy over something they didn't anticipate, never expected, in spite of the fact that scripture, written hundreds of years before, and Christ Himself told them the Messiah would suffer, be slain and rise again? They thought it was all metaphor! LOL!

Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the best; the alternate explanation is incredible.

But that's just me.

Further, there are at least 456 prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the person and the life of the Messiah, with more than five dozen of them being quite specific—variously, regarding the place of birth, the time of birth, the lineage of birth, the circumstances surrounding the birth, specific events in the life of the Messiah, the manner of death and so on. Christ fulfilled them all. The mathematical probability of one person fulfilling just eight of these prophecies is one in 10^17. The probability of fulfilling 48 of them is one in 10^157. . . .

But, ultimately, each must make up his own mind about these things and many others.

But here's the thing. I knew nothing about these things before my conversion. I wasn't thinking about the probabilities of this or that, what made sense and what didn't. I was simply willing to know the truth. I read a passage regarding the claims made by Christ Himself . . . and suddenly I could "see" them and knew them to be true. And I knew that the moment I knocked on that door without any preconceived notions, beyond these fundamental claims, He would open it. And of course He did! None of this came to me from within. It all came to me from without.

And none of these prophesies could have been made up later?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

You were mostly right.

I was absolutely right, and the language that amino acids have codons or constitute condons or even triplets is nonstandard, confusing. Those terms refer to nucleotides and nucleotides only, which code for one amino acid at a time. And the idea that any system would require a multitude of starts and stops is nonsensical. konradv's expression strongly indicates a secondhand, half-assed understanding of the matter.

I just figured if we were going to act like sharpshooting douchebags over a bunch of minutiae or slam posters for not quoting a cell biology text ver batum, you were fair game too.

That's merely your version of reality, the belief in something that belies my stated motive and the reasons behind it. Curiously, you also seem to know something about the inner workings of konradv’s mind as well. All we have to go on is his expression. And the language and the implications of that expression are muddled. Yet in the above, after reading your rendition of the idea, I stated that I was willing to allow that konradv's understanding of things might actually be better than what his expression suggests.

Case closed. Let it go. Move on. But, no. You still want to quibble.

Great! So you guys can say just whatever the hell you please, however you please, no matter how ill-considered or poorly expressed in support of your worldview, and the rest us are supposed to just go along with it like sheep. God forbid someone should demand clarity and accuracy in science. You take it personally? And moreover, I do not require that others quote biology text verbatim. I quoted my own words, my own thoughts, i.e., my expression of the facts, for example, as one who understands them and owns them, so to speak, in his own right. I require that persons state the science accurately, particularly when they assert a secondhand, half-assed challenge to my worldview as being valid.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Which one is The One True God? He certainly hasn't made it clear by . . . miracle. . . .

Stepping away from science. . . .

Well, I certainly wouldn't agree with that. I believe that Christ did rise from the dead and that this historical event is well-documented.

Dozens of persons claimed to have personally witnessed the resurrected Christ, and these persons claim that yet hundreds of others personally witnessed the resurrected Christ and His ascension. I think the argument that these people suffered from some form of mass hysteria is absurd, especially given the fact that they were mired in fear and despair just a few days before the alleged event. Yet suddenly, they were prepared to brave certain imprisonment or death as they bolding proclaimed . . . a lie?

What precisely was the substance of this sudden transformation?

A sudden death wish over nothing? A sudden pandemic of madness or sociopathlogy over something they didn't anticipate, never expected, in spite of the fact that scripture, written hundreds of years before, and Christ Himself told them the Messiah would suffer, be slain and rise again? They thought it was all metaphor! LOL!

Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the best; the alternate explanation is incredible.

But that's just me.

Further, there are at least 456 prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the person and the life of the Messiah, with more than five dozen of them being quite specific—variously, regarding the place of birth, the time of birth, the lineage of birth, the circumstances surrounding the birth, specific events in the life of the Messiah, the manner of death and so on. Christ fulfilled them all. The mathematical probability of one person fulfilling just eight of these prophecies is one in 10^17. The probability of fulfilling 48 of them is one in 10^157. . . .

But, ultimately, each must make up his own mind about these things and many others.

But here's the thing. I knew nothing about these things before my conversion. I wasn't thinking about the probabilities of this or that, what made sense and what didn't. I was simply willing to know the truth. I read a passage regarding the claims made by Christ Himself . . . and suddenly I could "see" them and knew them to be true. And I knew that the moment I knocked on that door without any preconceived notions, beyond these fundamental claims, He would open it. And of course He did! None of this came to me from within. It all came to me from without.

And none of these prophesies could have been made up later?

No. They couldn't have. We have manuscripts of the Old Testament, in the Hebrew from the Dead Sea Scrolls and those of the Alexandrian translation that predate the Gospels and the epistles of the New Testament by hundreds of years. Also, the New Testament writers quote directly from both the Hebrew text and the Septuagint. But that's just the beginning; there are a myriad of other reasons that make what you're suggesting impossible.

 

[Foxfyre]

Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is the best; the alternate explanation is incredible.

But that's just me.

Occam's razor would not support the notion that a person was re-animated. That's the alternate explanation that is incredible.

It would be more simple to say that there was a vast conspiracy among Christ's followers to hide the body and concoct a conspiracy than to say that a body was dead for three days and suddenly was made to be alive.

Not that I feel the need to argue the gospel, but if you choose to believe the gospel, you do so as an article of faith. You can't try and enter logic and reason into the matter.

It's the same with the virgin birth. In religion, the miraculous occurs as a matter of course. It defies logic, which is why faith is the central tenant of all religion.

The problem is that an encounter with God by whatever name is one of those human experiences that cannot be demonstrated to another. For instance you go outside and see your shadow. You go inside and announce to others that you saw your shadow outside. When they go outside it has clouded up and no shadows are visible. At that point you are operating from the certainty of experience. You know what you saw. You know what you experienced.

Everybody else has to take it on faith that you saw what you saw and experienced what you experienced. As positive and secure and certain as you are, you have absolutely no way to prove it. If they don't want to believe you, they won't. But it won't make what you experienced any less true.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

No. Your criticism was intended to try and make someone look like they were ignorant on something they are not because they didn't type out a textbook.

Uh-huh.

It's silly and asinine. Perhaps it's amature night at the Apollo.

Yep. That's what was shown to be true about konradv's prattle.

No one is arguing the mechanisms of cell biology here.

Uh-huh. konradv didn't raise the mechanisms of cellular biology; he was talking about the mating habits of the common housefly. Right. Sure.

Treating us like sheep again, eh?

Finally, I don't think the textbook facts of the natural sciences argue for or against a designer. That is too large of a logical leap to make either way. My only point is that you can't insert the supernatural into the scientific method.

Yeah, well, since the rest of us agree with that and have said so over and over again, your point is pointless.

It's a simple procedural argument that you refuse to acknowledge.

Are you mad?

Throwing a fit because others simply won't concede your points when you can't support your own arguments is telling of just how intellectually bankrupt your arguments are.

"Throwing a fit"?

Followed by this. . . .

Don't think you are going to throw off people who know better with rhetorical slight of hand.

And then this. . . .

As I said before; you aren't fooling anyone.

 

[Montrovant]

I chased the 'ghosts' too for more than a decade. I looked at EVERYTHING among all the world's great religions and more than a few more obscure ones. I really wanted to find a substitute for Christianity as I perceived it to be hopelessly flawed. And I found that ALL religions contain truths. And ALL religions get some of it wrong. Eventually I arrived at a point of truth I could neither deny nor explain away. And I remain Christian.

What is required to experience, for want of a better term, a divine intelligence is to allow God to be God. When we insist on establishing our own parameters for who God is and what he must be, we close ourselves off from the divine intelligence. And it becomes quite easy to just throw up our hands and deny that it exists.

Once our mind is open and we accept that we know so little compared to all there is to know--that is true of religious faith and it is true of science--a whole new universe of possibilities and realities is opened up to us.

We don't have to believe. We only have to be willing to let it take over without any conditions of time, place, or process and any preconceived expectations of results.

Once a person does that, he or she will become a firm ID-er. And it's great. I thoroughly recommend it.

VERY curious: What truth led you back and solidified your belief in Jesus as The Christ?

For me it was trusting in the 'Divine' inspiration of The Bible - You said yourself that, in spite of ALL religions containing truths, ALL religions get some of it wrong.

For any book to be Divinely inspired, wouldn't a prerequisite be 100% 'not wrong'?

If The Bible isn't Divinely inspired, what's the point of viewing the stories as anything more than a collection of literature that fills the spectrum from boring to fascinating?

Couple that with the understanding that the stories of the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth were first committed to paper no less than 70 years after his death, and the bullshit that history proves people are willing to write down as 'gospel' to make their political point, and I call bullshit on the whole thing.

Now, that's just the humble opinion of this average American Joe. I understand your passion and I defend your right to believe whatever it is that you choose to believe in. I simply am just as passionate about spreading what I consider to be the truth about that period in history.

The pivotal point for me was being willing to let go of ALL preconceived notions about what God is, what God isn't, what the Bible is, what the Bible isn't, what the Christ is, what the Christ isn't etc. and just invite a larger intelligence to make itself known however and whenver it should choose to do that. There is no way to adequately explain what a personal encounter/experience with the Divine Intelligence is like, but it pretty well solidifies its own reality once experienced. And once experienced I could no longer explain away that reality or deny what I finally came to know and understand at least on a limited basis.

The whole key to understanding the divine inspiration of the Bible is to do the really difficult and intense study necessary to read the words through the eyes of those who wrote them. I do believe it was divinely inspired and that is why it remains the No. #1 best selling book of all time since the first manuscripts were produced to the present. And that's after millenia of effort to distort it, snuff it out, deny it to the people. But even more than that, it is observance of those who read the words through the eyes of those who wrote it who come to know the Divine Presence in the process.

Trying to read and interpret the Bible with 21st Century perspective and experience alone is a fool's folly. But competent Bible study does wonders to give us a fresh perspective and understanding and experience of an ancient people and what importance that has for us now.

Again it requires an open mind and a willingness to set aside all our biases and prejudices and any preconceived notions of how it is supposed to be. And that also opens the mind to many possibilities of Intelligent Design and why that makes as much sense as anything we understand of formal religion or science.

I wonder if any of us can truly set aside all our biases. Just the idea that there is A god, rather than gods, is a bias.

But you are correct that spiritual belief is a personal thing that cannot be directly shared with or proven to another, at least at this time. That's why so often religious/spiritual arguments are fun but pointless.

 

[Foxfyre]

VERY curious: What truth led you back and solidified your belief in Jesus as The Christ?

For me it was trusting in the 'Divine' inspiration of The Bible - You said yourself that, in spite of ALL religions containing truths, ALL religions get some of it wrong.

For any book to be Divinely inspired, wouldn't a prerequisite be 100% 'not wrong'?

If The Bible isn't Divinely inspired, what's the point of viewing the stories as anything more than a collection of literature that fills the spectrum from boring to fascinating?

Couple that with the understanding that the stories of the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth were first committed to paper no less than 70 years after his death, and the bullshit that history proves people are willing to write down as 'gospel' to make their political point, and I call bullshit on the whole thing.

Now, that's just the humble opinion of this average American Joe. I understand your passion and I defend your right to believe whatever it is that you choose to believe in. I simply am just as passionate about spreading what I consider to be the truth about that period in history.

The pivotal point for me was being willing to let go of ALL preconceived notions about what God is, what God isn't, what the Bible is, what the Bible isn't, what the Christ is, what the Christ isn't etc. and just invite a larger intelligence to make itself known however and whenver it should choose to do that. There is no way to adequately explain what a personal encounter/experience with the Divine Intelligence is like, but it pretty well solidifies its own reality once experienced. And once experienced I could no longer explain away that reality or deny what I finally came to know and understand at least on a limited basis.

The whole key to understanding the divine inspiration of the Bible is to do the really difficult and intense study necessary to read the words through the eyes of those who wrote them. I do believe it was divinely inspired and that is why it remains the No. #1 best selling book of all time since the first manuscripts were produced to the present. And that's after millenia of effort to distort it, snuff it out, deny it to the people. But even more than that, it is observance of those who read the words through the eyes of those who wrote it who come to know the Divine Presence in the process.

Trying to read and interpret the Bible with 21st Century perspective and experience alone is a fool's folly. But competent Bible study does wonders to give us a fresh perspective and understanding and experience of an ancient people and what importance that has for us now.

Again it requires an open mind and a willingness to set aside all our biases and prejudices and any preconceived notions of how it is supposed to be. And that also opens the mind to many possibilities of Intelligent Design and why that makes as much sense as anything we understand of formal religion or science.

I wonder if any of us can truly set aside all our biases. Just the idea that there is A god, rather than gods, is a bias.

But you are correct that spiritual belief is a personal thing that cannot be directly shared with or proven to another, at least at this time. That's why so often religious/spiritual arguments are fun but pointless.

Pointless perhaps except as an exercise in logic and rational concepts. It requires every bit as much faith to declare there is no God as it does to choose to believe in a God that you have not (yet) personally experienced.

It takes every bit as much faith to declare that all happened purely by chance or by random selection as it does to declare that the universe is guided by some sort of intelligent design.

And those most logical leave open the door for either or both to be possible and continue to allow searching for clues that will increase the body of knowledge of science, however insignificant that is when compared to all the science there is likely still to learn.