The Fight for 15 dollars an hour...the computer that just took my order is laughing at you......

[danielpalos]

What are you even talking about? We have been ringing it for years, because we can look at the prices, and see it happened.

It's not a 'theoretical' result.. it's a historically proven true result.

"You don't even believe...".... something we saw happen... happened? Yeah of course we believe that, when we watched it occur.

Wages should outpace inflation on an Institutional basis regardless.

 

[danielpalos]

We need a simple economic solution to this dilemma under our form of Capitalism:

 

[JoeB131]

"Investor class"? What exactly is that?

The class that has turned Wall Street into a Casino. The parasites that have convinced you they are a vital organ.

My point is that there is no "investor class". I was a kid when I invested my first chunk of cash. I drive a seven year old car as my daily driver and I clip coupons before I go grocery shopping.

Cool Story, Bro... but the reality is, there's a clear difference between the working class and the investor class, and it's getting wider. I think the guy who flips the burgers deserves more money than the guy who invested in McDonald's because it was up that week.

 

[Canon Shooter]

"Investor class"? What exactly is that?

The class that has turned Wall Street into a Casino. The parasites that have convinced you they are a vital organ.

My point is that there is no "investor class". I was a kid when I invested my first chunk of cash. I drive a seven year old car as my daily driver and I clip coupons before I go grocery shopping.

Cool Story, Bro... but the reality is, there's a clear difference between the working class and the investor class, and it's getting wider. I think the guy who flips the burgers deserves more money than the guy who invested in McDonald's because it was up that week.

Well, that might be how it is in the fantasyland mind of Joe, but that's not the real world, nor should it be.

You can dismiss my experience as a "cool story, bro"; that doesn't affect me at all. But I took a relative small sum of money and have turned it into a portfolio which is pretty impressive. I'm proud of what I've accomplished. It would've been easy to piss away that initial $1,500 on beer and weed (I imbibed in the "magic garden" once upon a time), but I didn't "need" that money, so I invested it.

While I don't treat Wall Street like a casino, I've gotten to the point where I have the resources to do just that and not hurt myself too much if things went south. These days, though, I prefer to invest in real estate and vintage guitars.

Oh, and not for nothin', but maybe you'd be in a better place if you knew how investing actually works. See, you don't invest money in McDonald's "because it was up that week". What a stupid fucking thing to do.

You invest your money when it's down.

Maybe that's why you're so bitter towards those of us who have had success...

 

[JoeB131]

You can dismiss my experience as a "cool story, bro"; that doesn't affect me at all.

Again, Cool Story... don't care.

Point is, money isn't created by the Parasite investor class. You could kill all the investors, society would survive,

You kill all the workers, the investors would eventually starve. Probably standing line waiting for that burger no one is there to flip.

Maybe that's why you're so bitter towards those of us who have had success...

Naw, Guy, I'm bitter because neighborhoods I grew up in are now turning into slums... That's what happens when you have a third world mentality of just the rich and the poor, and you see the world as "winners and losers" instead of us all being in this together.

It's not about me. I'm doing fine. I'll do just as well in the inevitable society where the working class rounds up the investor class and gives the lot of them a Louis XVI haircut.

 

[Canon Shooter]

You can dismiss my experience as a "cool story, bro"; that doesn't affect me at all.

Again, Cool Story... don't care.

Point is, money isn't created by the Parasite investor class. You could kill all the investors, society would survive,

No, it wouldn't.

I acknowledge that you're not smart enough to understand that, but it's true...

You kill all the workers, the investors would eventually starve. Probably standing line waiting for that burger no one is there to flip.

You seem to think your "investor class" is made up of nothing but silver-spoon feeding, self-entitled buffoons. That's so far from the truth it's ridiculous, and suggesting that makes you look stupid.

The vast majority of successful people I know worked hard for their success. Some even have those burger-flipping skills you and your ilk hold in such high esteem. Shit, there's a local restaurant; O'Steens, which has been here since it was opened in 1965. The guy who owns it now (and who's a millionaire) started working there as a busboy when he was 12 years old.

He's worked hard and it's paid off.

You wouldn't know anything about that, though.

Suggesting that those of us who've enjoyed a level of success in life can't do the "grunt work" is stupid...

Naw, Guy, I'm bitter because neighborhoods I grew up in are now turning into slums... That's what happens when you have a third world mentality of just the rich and the poor, and you see the world as "winners and losers" instead of us all being in this together.

No, that's what happens when you turn your cities over to Democrats who are more interested in giving shit away than they are having a populace which takes pride in their neighborhoods. If you don't work to make your neighborhood better, you've lost nothing when it goes tits up...

It's not about me. I'm doing fine. I'll do just as well in the inevitable society where the working class rounds up the investor class and gives the lot of them a Louis XVI haircut.

Now you're just putting your hypocritical side on display for all to see. You lament that the investor class needs to understand that we're "all in this together" (can you hear strains of "Kumbaya" in the distance?), but then you talk about cutting their heads off.

The fact is that you want to believe that we're not all in this together. You just can't figure out how to get by without relying on the people you, clearly, hate.

Deny it all you want, but your disdain for people who've enjoyed greater success than you is palpable...

 

[JoeB131]

No, it wouldn't.

I acknowledge that you're not smart enough to understand that, but it's true...

I understand it perfectly well. The Parasite has convinced the world it's a vital organ.

You seem to think your "investor class" is made up of nothing but silver-spoon feeding, self-entitled buffoons. That's so far from the truth it's ridiculous, and suggesting that makes you look stupid.

The vast majority of successful people I know

Cool story, Bro. Don't care. The problem is, the system DOESN'T WORK for the 40% on the bottom who have less than 1% of the wealth. It doesn't work for the 20% in the middle who have only 4% of the wealth. It barely works for the 20% just below the top who have only 7% of the wealth. (Probably where I fit in this point in my life.)

This wealth inequality is UNSUSTAINABLE. The fact that demagogues like Trump and Sanders can make political hay promising to tear it all down should tell you that.

Suggesting that those of us who've enjoyed a level of success in life can't do the "grunt work" is stupid...

First, I don't believe for a moment that you are successful... A truly successful person wouldn't care if a burger flipper makes $15.00 an hour.

Secondly no, I don't think the One Percenters could do the grunt work...

No, that's what happens when you turn your cities over to Democrats who are more interested in giving shit away than they are having a populace which takes pride in their neighborhoods. If you don't work to make your neighborhood better, you've lost nothing when it goes tits up...

Except it didn't go tits up because people were "giving stuff away". It went tits up because while my Dad's generation could get into the union after WWII, and have a good paying job and buy nice houses, this generation gets saddled with student debt and can't even start families until they are in their 30's.

Now you're just putting your hypocritical side on display for all to see. You lament that the investor class needs to understand that we're "all in this together" (can you hear strains of "Kumbaya" in the distance?), but then you talk about cutting their heads off.

The fact is that you want to believe that we're not all in this together. You just can't figure out how to get by without relying on the people you, clearly, hate.

Deny it all you want, but your disdain for people who've enjoyed greater success than you is palpable...

My disdain for their GREED and how it's ruined this country is palpable. And, yes, when the guilotine comes, I will be one of those laughing in the crowd, just like the French folks did in 1790.

Shouldn't be like this. We kind of had it right after WWII. The rich paid their fair share, the working class made decent money to start families... The problem with greed is that it's never enough.

 

[Andylusion]

What are you even talking about? We have been ringing it for years, because we can look at the prices, and see it happened.

It's not a 'theoretical' result.. it's a historically proven true result.

Actually, it's really not. Inflation happens whether the cost of labor goes up or not.

In fact, there is no correlation between inflation and the minimum wage. The last time the Min Wage went up was 2009.

Inflation did not go up in 2010 by more than 1%. It has remained between 0.5 and 3% for the last decade.

And what you don't get, is that if I don't have the money to pay them whatever "living wage" you make up, then I don't employ them.

Then you go out of business, and someone who can afford to pay his employees a fair wage gets your customers. It's a win-win for everyone.

You see, the kind of asshole who doesn't want to pay his employees a fair wage. I WANT THAT FUCKER TO LOSE HIS BUSINESS. I truly do. Someone else will provide those goods and services and they'll do it paying their employees a fair wage.

So I actually worked at McDonald's when the minimum wage went up.

First thing they did, was lay off 3 part time workers.

How did the store continue to operate? The rest of us simply had to work more.

The second thing they did was decrease serving sizes.

Charging the same amount of money, for a smaller amount of food is a way of subtly passing on the increased cost of labor.

How did I find this out?

What you are looking at is a somewhat similar fry station to the one I used when I worked there.

The fry cups are held in metal slots on this station, and are not adjustable.

When the company reduced the cup size over a period of about 12 months, eventually the cups would fall through the slots, because they were too small, and the metal slots can't be adjusted.

We ended up just setting them on the ground near the fry station, and picking them up when needed. (yes on the floor).

Over the course of a year, the large became a medium. The medium became a small. And the small got so tiny, it barely held 6 fries in it. Honestly it was ridiculous.

Eventually they introduced a new larger size fry cup, with a new higher price. Then after some time, they simply renamed everything. The extra large became the large, the large became the medium, and the medium became the small, and the small was just wiped off the menu.

Now here is what you need to grasp. The reasons McDonald's and Wendy's and other fast food joints do not make fry stations with adjustable racks, is because generally over the course of a decade, they don't change their drink cups, or their fry cup sizes.

The reason they did it this time, was because the minimum wage drove up costs, and passing that cost on in overt price hikes, pisses people off. So instead they changed the cup sizes, and phased in a price hike over time.

All companies pass on these price hikes. All of them.

Food Inflation Kept Hidden in Tinier Bags (Published 2011)

In downturns, companies reduce the size of some products, disguising price increases and avoiding comparisons on same-size packages.

www.nytimes.com

This is a story from March 2011, talking about how companies were reducing the net weight of their packaged products, without changing the price.

So mother goes in to buy cereal for Timmy, and the exact same size box, but with less cereal in the box, but for the same exact price.

Why did they do this in 2010 to 2011? Oh that's right, we had a minimum wage hike from 2007-2009.

From the article:

​

“Whole wheat pasta had gone from 16 ounces to 13.25 ounces,” she said. “I bought three boxes and it wasn’t enough — that was a little embarrassing. I bought the same amount I always buy, I just didn’t realize it, because who reads the sizes all the time?”​

The cost of labor is always.... ALWAYS passed onto the consumer. Companies avoid directly passing on the cost in increased prices, because people get pissy about it. They are less likely to notice that the net weight reduced by 3 ounces per box.

But... the cost of labor is ALWAYS passed on. ALWAYS. There is zero example anywhere, where the minimum wage costs are not passed onto consumers. Zero. No such example anywhere ever.

 

[Andylusion]

Tap dance all you want, moron. You put it out there in front of God and everybody: You don't believe in working hard to get what you want. You're an obedient little lib who wants everything given to him.

I'm perfectly happy working to get what I want.

What pisses me off is putting in lots and lots of time to make the parasite investor class rich.

Then don't. If you are working for an investor, and you don't like it... stop.

I'm an investor. I make barely $30,000 a year. I'm an investor. If you'd like to make me rich, I would appreciate it, but under Capitalism I can't force you to make me rich.

You have freedom under Capitalism. This isn't socialism, where I can get the Soviets to drag you back to the labor camp.

So if you are not happy who you are working for, that's on you.

 

[Andylusion]

"Investor class"? What exactly is that?

The class that has turned Wall Street into a Casino. The parasites that have convinced you they are a vital organ.

My point is that there is no "investor class". I was a kid when I invested my first chunk of cash. I drive a seven year old car as my daily driver and I clip coupons before I go grocery shopping.

Cool Story, Bro... but the reality is, there's a clear difference between the working class and the investor class, and it's getting wider. I think the guy who flips the burgers deserves more money than the guy who invested in McDonald's because it was up that week.

Ridiculous.....

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

A one-time janitor and gas station attendant demonstrated that you can become a multimillionaire with a modest salary.

www.cnbc.com

This is a Janitor. He invested, and made $8 Million over the course of his life.

Is he the working class, or the investor class, given you claim the two are completely different?

Take my parents. They are worth over a million dollars, and have multiple investments. They worked their entire lives, and even after retiring in their early 60s, worked for another 10 years both of them.

Are they investors or working class, since you claim they can't be both?

Take me. I've never earned more than $30,000 a year, and I have investments in many large companies. Am I working class, or investor class in your book?

Warren Buffet was working a paper route, and bought stock at age 11. Was he working class, at age 11 doing a paper route, or was he investor class buying stock?

Sorry, but your position is absolutely ridiculous.

There is no difference between investors and working class people. Working class people that consumer their wealth are poor. Working class people that invest their wealth, end up rich.

That's it.

Instead of complaining about people who act wisely with their money, join them, and act wisely with your money too. Stop whining, and start wining.

 

[Canon Shooter]

First, I don't believe for a moment that you are successful... A truly successful person wouldn't care if a burger flipper makes $15.00 an hour.

And why is that?

Because I have money I shouldn't be permitted to opine as to what I see to be a bad idea?

And, frankly, I don't give a fuck if you believe I'm successful or not. My story, and countless stories like mine, destroy your argument about people who have money. You're nothing but a jealous little slug who'll never really amount to much, probably living paycheck to paycheck, dreaming about when you can take the missus to Las Vegas for that honeymoon you've been putting off for 20 years...

Secondly no, I don't think the One Percenters could do the grunt work...

I know otherwise. I don't have to guess...

Except it didn't go tits up because people were "giving stuff away". It went tits up because while my Dad's generation could get into the union after WWII, and have a good paying job and buy nice houses, this generation gets saddled with student debt and can't even start families until they are in their 30's.

Huh.

Which generation is that?

I've never worked in a union. I married at 23 and had a child at 24. I was active duty military and, I can assure you, I wasn't rollin' in dough. Even still, I was able to buy my first house in San Diego at 30 and a second at 36.

You just need to work harder...

My disdain for their GREED and how it's ruined this country is palpable.

What's wrong with working hard and reaping the rewards of that hard work? If I want more than I have, I don't demand someone give it to me, as you do. That's greed. I, on the other hand, work for what I want. That's not greed.

Do you want me to feel bad for having more than someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't have as much? Sorry, that's not gonna' happen...

And, yes, when the guilotine comes, I will be one of those laughing in the crowd, just like the French folks did in 1790.

You're pathetic. You really are...

The problem with greed is that it's never enough.

Something, I'm sure, you are all too well acquainted with. After all, greed is clearly your lifestyle...

 

[JoeB131]

So I actually worked at McDonald's when the minimum wage went up.

First thing they did, was lay off 3 part time workers.

Cool story, bro. Don't care.

They'd pull shit like this no matter what the wage is. That's why I don't care.

I almost never go to McDonalds because it's an evil corporation and I hope it fucking DIES. (It is slowly dying because it's hated as a brand, increasingly. That clown isn't even showing his face) But one time I did last year, I picked up a vanilla shake because my stomach was bothering me. $4.00 for a Vanilla Shake. And these corrupt greedy fucks can't afford to pay their people a living wage. Seriously, fuck them.

 

[JoeB131]

And, frankly, I don't give a fuck if you believe I'm successful or not. My story, and countless stories like mine, destroy your argument about people who have money. You're nothing but a jealous little slug who'll never really amount to much, probably living paycheck to paycheck, dreaming about when you can take the missus to Las Vegas for that honeymoon you've been putting off for 20 years...

Well, that's exactly what it is, a story. A truly successful person wouldn't care if some poor burger flipper is making a fair wage or not.

That's the attitude of someone who thinks he's special because he's making $14.50 and is insulted that the burger flipper is making almost as good of money.

I've never worked in a union. I married at 23 and had a child at 24. I was active duty military and, I can assure you, I wasn't rollin' in dough. Even still, I was able to buy my first house in San Diego at 30 and a second at 36.

Dude, I bought my first house when I was 25 and still on Active Duty. I wasn't talking about my generation, I'm talking about these millennials who come out of college with enough debt to buy a house, who put off having kids until they are in their 30's, often getting stuck working crappy, not quite minimum wage jobs because some one percenter (Still waiting on that guillotine) is happy to abuse them because they aren't a barista at Starbucks.

What's wrong with working hard and reaping the rewards of that hard work? If I want more than I have, I don't demand someone give it to me, as you do. That's greed. I, on the other hand, work for what I want. That's not greed.

Do you want me to feel bad for having more than someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't have as much? Sorry, that's not gonna' happen...

No, your sort never feels bad. Your sort gets dragged to the guillotine wondering what you did wrong.

As pointed out, as taxpayers (because we don't make the rich pay their fair share) the working poor are already being subsidized. So lets make the rich pay for the value of the labor they are receiving instead of having the rest of us pay for it. I don't go to McDonalds, I shouldn't have to subsidize their workforce.

You're pathetic. You really are...

Naw, I'm a pragmatist who has read a history book. Why do you think all those poor peasants were cheering when the Bourbons were being dragged to the Guillotine?

The BLM Riots were a dress rehearsal for the revolution... you can either address the problems, or you can just wait for it all to fall apart.

 

[danielpalos]

This would have never been an issue if the minimum wage had kept up with inflation. Why did Capitalism fail Labor as the least wealthy in our economy?

 

[Canon Shooter]

Well, that's exactly what it is, a story. A truly successful person wouldn't care if some poor burger flipper is making a fair wage or not.

Sorry, but I've got an opinion and your desire that I not express it means nothing to me.

Paying someone $15 an hour to flip a burger is stupid. Now, teach the guy who flips the burgers to also fix the grill when it goes down and I say pay him $20 an hour.

Pay needs to be commensurate with the skill...

That's the attitude of someone who thinks he's special because he's making $14.50 and is insulted that the burger flipper is making almost as good of money.

I wouldn't know. I haven't made as little as $15 an hour for years. I wanted more money, so I worked for it and convinced my boss I was worth more.

That's how it works...

Dude, I bought my first house when I was 25 and still on Active Duty.

Not in California you didn't. Those liberal dipshits out there have gotten the cost of living to be so outrageous that the 1,450 sq. foot 4BR/2BA house that I paid $198K for in 1999 is now valued at over $600K...

I wasn't talking about my generation, I'm talking about these millennials who come out of college with enough debt to buy a house, who put off having kids until they are in their 30's, often getting stuck working crappy, not quite minimum wage jobs because some one percenter (Still waiting on that guillotine) is happy to abuse them because they aren't a barista at Starbucks.

Cry me a fuckin' river.

No one forces anyone to take on student debt. No one. I've got a buddy who got his degree in neurobiology from the University of Rochester. He and I are the same age. It took him years to pay off his student loans. The funny part is that he does nothing with that degree. He makes his living now as a professional guitar player, touring with one of those old 60's bands that the old folks like to go see. He's clearing $3K a night while on tour, and is also a successful music producer in New York.

Believe it or not, it's quite possible to be successful without going to college. My buddy did it, I did it. It's entirely possible...

No, your sort never feels bad. Your sort gets dragged to the guillotine wondering what you did wrong.

What have I done wrong? Work hard? Be successful? Why do you think I should apologize for that? Why do you think I should feel bad?

As pointed out, as taxpayers (because we don't make the rich pay their fair share) the working poor are already being subsidized. So lets make the rich pay for the value of the labor they are receiving instead of having the rest of us pay for it. I don't go to McDonalds, I shouldn't have to subsidize their workforce.

I agree that employees should be paid for the value of their labor. The problem is that you think that flipping a burger has a value of $15 an hour. It doesn't. One needn't possess a special skill-set to do that job. One needs to remain upright and conscious and have the manual dexterity to operate a spatula.

Think about it: You believe someone should get paid $15 to do this:

I believe someone who does this should be fired, not given a raise.

Since you believe your position is so righteous and correct, I challenge you to change my mind...

Naw, I'm a pragmatist who has read a history book. Why do you think all those poor peasants were cheering when the Bourbons were being dragged to the Guillotine?

Because their jealousy had gotten the best of them, just as yours has gotten the best of you...

The BLM Riots were a dress rehearsal for the revolution... you can either address the problems, or you can just wait for it all to fall apart.

Pretty sure the BLM riots had nothing to do with Shaquandanitra making $15 an hour at McDonald's.

As for the revolution, I'm ready. Are you?

 

[danielpalos]

I agree that employees should be paid for the value of their labor. The problem is that you think that flipping a burger has a value of $15 an hour. It doesn't. One needn't possess a special skill-set to do that job. One needs to remain upright and have the manual dexterity to, well, flip a burger.

Think about it: You believe someone should get paid $15 to do this:

Sure. The minimum wage is still the minimum wage. The private sector is merely a price taker. The socialism of Government has the sovereignty to "move the goalposts."

 

[Canon Shooter]

I agree that employees should be paid for the value of their labor. The problem is that you think that flipping a burger has a value of $15 an hour. It doesn't. One needn't possess a special skill-set to do that job. One needs to remain upright and have the manual dexterity to, well, flip a burger.

Think about it: You believe someone should get paid $15 to do this:

Sure. The minimum wage is still the minimum wage. The private sector is merely a price taker. The socialism of Government has the sovereignty to "move the goalposts."

My apologies but, honestly, you're way too fucking stupid for me to talk to...

 

[danielpalos]

I agree that employees should be paid for the value of their labor. The problem is that you think that flipping a burger has a value of $15 an hour. It doesn't. One needn't possess a special skill-set to do that job. One needs to remain upright and have the manual dexterity to, well, flip a burger.

Think about it: You believe someone should get paid $15 to do this:

Sure. The minimum wage is still the minimum wage. The private sector is merely a price taker. The socialism of Government has the sovereignty to "move the goalposts."

My apologies but, honestly, you're way too fucking stupid for me to talk to...

lol. You have no valid arguments only fallacy (of argumentum ad hominem).

 

[Canon Shooter]

You have no valid arguments only fallacy (of argumentum ad hominem).

My arguments have a solid foothold in logic.

You wouldn't know logic if it fucking fell on you...

 

[danielpalos]

You have no valid arguments only fallacy (of argumentum ad hominem).

My arguments have a solid foothold in logic.

You wouldn't know logic if it fucking fell on you...

The minimum wage is still the Minimum wage. The private sector is merely a price taker. The socialism of Government has the sovereignty to "move the goalposts."