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The Fight Against the Health Care Takeover

dblack

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Now that the dust of the election is settling, what can those of us opposed to PPACA do to fight it? Is de-funding a realistic approach? What are the various states up to in terms of resisting the federal ambitions?
 

emilynghiem

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Now that the dust of the election is settling, what can those of us opposed to PPACA do to fight it? Is de-funding a realistic approach? What are the various states up to in terms of resisting the federal ambitions?

I just found out, the deciding judge on the Supreme Court didn't just let it pass.
He actually CHANGED text so the wording would make the insurance mandates a TAX.
That is not proper legal procedure or jurisdiction of the Court. The proper way would be to reject it, and it would have to go all the way through Congress again to rewrite it, since it passed not as a tax paid to govt but as requiring people to buy private insurance.

Are there any legal groups fighting this?
Of course, the supporters of the bill are not going to challenge the Court for amending the bill for them. It is clearly outside of judicial power to do that, from what I was told.

Can this be confirmed? And what judicial or govt watchdog groups are possibly fighting this legally?

Heck, if the bill can just be amended manually, without going through Congress, why not change opt out to opt in?

And require that the parties/supporters/leaders who signed off and agree to this bill, be under it and fund it. While those who believe in other constitutional means of covering one's health care are free to fund/support other systems besides insurance mandated by govt.
 
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dblack

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Now that the dust of the election is settling, what can those of us opposed to PPACA do to fight it? Is de-funding a realistic approach? What are the various states up to in terms of resisting the federal ambitions?

I just found out, the deciding judge on the Supreme Court didn't just let it pass.
He actually CHANGED text so the wording would make the insurance mandates a TAX.
That is not proper legal procedure or jurisdiction of the Court. The proper way would be to reject it, and it would have to go all the way through Congress again to rewrite it, since it passed not as a tax paid to govt but as requiring people to buy private insurance.

Are there any legal groups fighting this?
Of course, the supporters of the bill are not going to challenge the Court for amending the bill for them. It is clearly outside of judicial power to do that, from what I was told.

Can this be confirmed? And what judicial or govt watchdog groups are possibly fighting this legally?

Heck, if the bill can just be amended manually, without going through Congress, why not change opt out to opt in?

Roberts didn't rewrite the bill - just 'reinterpreted' it. SC judges are good at that. He claimed that regardless of what they called it, it's really was a tax. And if voters were too dumb to realize that - well, fuck them. He also cited the federal practice of manipulating society with arbitrary taxation as a hallowed tradition and used it to justify leaving the mandate in place. He probably realized that striking down the mandate would jeopardize all the tax incentives, along with wide swaths of federal power - as well as piss off the Democrats - and in the end he simply couldn't muster the courage to do the right thing. Or maybe he thinks the government should have that much power. Either way, he fucked us.
 
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Luddly Neddite

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Now that the dust of the election is settling, what can those of us opposed to PPACA do to fight it? Is de-funding a realistic approach? What are the various states up to in terms of resisting the federal ambitions?

You could start by taking financial responsibility for your own health care but that's exactly what the rw's are against.

Why is it that you rw's always ask someone else to give you what you want - in this case, answers to questions that you could easily find for yourself.

Same with ACA. From your previous posts n this subject, its obvious that you don't have a friggin clue what is actually in the ACA. Instead of looking it up and finding out how you can make it work for you, you just sit around a whine your ignorance.
 

Moonglow

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insurance companies are looking for a nice raise. The government is controlled by corporate America.
 
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dblack

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You could start by taking financial responsibility for your own health care but that's exactly what the rw's are against.

I'm not sure what "rw's" are against, but I'm opposed to PPACA precisely because it takes away financial responsibility for our health care.
 

Luddly Neddite

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You could start by taking financial responsibility for your own health care but that's exactly what the rw's are against.

I'm not sure what "rw's" are against, but I'm opposed to PPACA precisely because it takes away financial responsibility for our health care.

You really don't know anything about ObamaCare, do you. If you did, you would know that you must buy your own health insurance unless you cannot afford it. You would also know that you don't have to buy health insurance even if you CAN afford it and have the option instead, of showing financial responsibility.

IOW, you must take financial responsibility for your own health care insurance. I can't imagine how you think the opposite is true but really, that is YOUR problem.

In spite of your ignorance, I see you have not commented on this thread -

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...healthcare/261250-obamacare-cuts-deficit.html

And obviously not clicked on the links on the same page as the op link. None of the rws have because - well, its full of those damn pesky FACTS and we can't have that, now can we.

You're posting the same ignorance BS as you have for weeks now.

Have you bothered to read even one FACTUAL website?

And, no, I don't mean britebart, dredge, fux. I mean REAL websites.
 
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dblack

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You could start by taking financial responsibility for your own health care but that's exactly what the rw's are against.

I'm not sure what "rw's" are against, but I'm opposed to PPACA precisely because it takes away financial responsibility for our health care.

You really don't know anything about ObamaCare, do you. If you did, you would know that you must buy your own health insurance unless you cannot afford it. You would also know that you don't have to buy health insurance even if you CAN afford it and have the option instead, of showing financial responsibility.

IOW, you must take financial responsibility for your own health care insurance ....

Responsibility is about accepting accountability for your actions and decisions. Like the decision of how much health insurance you need. PPACA 'alleviates' us of the responsibility of making that decision by making it for us.

What you're describing is not 'responsibility', it's obedience.
 
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Luddly Neddite

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Like other rw's, you hear what you want to hear and ignore what doesn't feed your agenda.

Fine.
 
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dblack

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Like other rw's, you hear what you want to hear and ignore what doesn't feed your agenda.

Whatever. I wasn't really interested in more of your corporatist shilling anyway. I'm looking to discuss plans to thwart the sellout
 

Luddly Neddite

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Like other rw's, you hear what you want to hear and ignore what doesn't feed your agenda.

Whatever. I wasn't really interested in more of your corporatist shilling anyway. I'm looking to discuss plans to thwart the sellout

No you weren't.

You were looking for another empty argument.

But, if you really want to pay more and get less, refer to my earlier post, above.

While you're doing your research, you night want to consider that the US Congress has spent many millions and introduced 34 bills to repeal the ACA and gotten nowhere.

LOL
 
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dblack

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I don't think there's any point in waiting on Republicans to step up and fight this. Boehner has already signaled as much (UPDATE 1-Top Republican lawmaker: 'Obamacare is law of the land' | Reuters) - and I never really took their opposition seriously anyway; it was just electioneering bullshit.

So it will come down to the states, and general civil disobedience. Three more states passed ballot initiatives Tuesday blocking the mandate (Montana, Alabama and Wyoming). I'm not sure how much luck we'll have with that approach directly as the feds have all the money and military, but it could help build momentum and support for the resistance.

On the individual front, we should game the system and exploit every oversight in the law. The law claims no criminal penalties for defying the mandate penalty. Of course this is bullshit, but we should call their bluff and organize a massive deliberate non-payment campaign. Even if people have insurance, we should file as though we don't (just don't include the additional forms documenting your allegiance to an insurance patron). And then of course refuse to pay the penalty on our taxes.
 

Luddly Neddite

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Boehner and the rest of the R crooks have introduced 34 bills to repeal ACA at a cost of many millions of dollars to the tax payers who want and need affordable health care. And, yes, they knew all along that they could not repeal it. Because there are still a few who refuse to EDUCATE THEMSELVES, the Rs will still be making noises about taking affordable health care away from the American people while being assured that the sheeples will continue to vote against their own best interests. Count on it.

Bottom line however, ObamaCare is here to stay.

"... no criminal penalties ..."

Obviously, you still haven't read even one sentence of fact concerning ACA.

" ... non-payment ..."

"... even if you have insurance ... "

Yeah, that's what you should do alright. Pay more for your insurance and get less coverage.

Great idea.

You get right on that.

Alternatively, you could

EDUCATE YOURSELF

If you did that, then you'd know just how silly your impotent huffing and puffing sounds.
 
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dblack

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luddly, you keep going on and on about 'facts', yet you've still not cited one aspect of PPACA that I'm wrong about. I know, I challenge you every time you go there, and each time you skulk away. In particular, you ignore the corporatist nature of PPACA, consoling yourself with vague promises that it will be 'fixed' sometime in the future. Really?
 

Quantum Windbag

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There are a few states that are going to opt out of the mandated exchanges, which is going to cause massive problems since people that participate in them are not eligible for federal insurance subsidies. There are also states that are opting out of the Medicare expansion provisions, this site has a pretty good rundown of which states are doing what.

State Political Shifts Likely To Affect Health Law – Capsules - The KHN Blog

I am not sure if we can count the trend toward part time employees as part of the battle against Obamacare, but it is happening, and it is a direct result of the requirement to provide insurance to employees that are working more than 30 hours.
 

Luddly Neddite

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luddly, you keep going on and on about 'facts', yet you've still not cited one aspect of PPACA that I'm wrong about. I know, I challenge you every time you go there, and each time you skulk away. In particular, you ignore the corporatist nature of PPACA, consoling yourself with vague promises that it will be 'fixed' sometime in the future. Really?

Liar. Show me exactly where I have said anything even remotely resembling this.

I go on about facts because that's all that interests me. I've posted links in the past and the rw's studiously avoid them. I now post very few links concerning ACA. It is you who has made the wild-eyed claims, all based on ignorance, and it is YOU who has not proven your opinions to be true. Just the opposite - your posts prove that you have not read anything more enlightening or fact-based than fux, britebart, dredge, lushbo, beck.

Challenge all you want. I've studied, researched, talked to my insurance provider and made decisions based on all of that. You are welcome to disagree with me but don't tell me its my job to educate you.

And, turning off one's computer and getting on with living one's life is hardly "skulking away". Saying that it is, especially since I have come back to read your latest comic book entry, is just stupid and childish.

insurance companies are looking for a nice raise. The government is controlled by corporate America.

BTW, this, from Moonglow, is also horseshit. Being forced to spend 80 cents of every dollar on actual patient care is hardly a "nice raise". Along with the lower consumer prices for scrips is what the GObP/pubpots are trying to stop.

And, now, I am going to turn off my computer and leave for the day. Try to carry on without me.
 

longknife

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Annals of Government Medicine

by John Hinderaker

With President Obama’s re-election, it is generally assumed that Obamacare is here to stay. Which means that pretty soon, your health care will be run incompetently, like the postal service, and with an agenda, like the EPA and the Department of Energy. Where does that lead? Britain’s National Health Service has shown the way. The NHS operates like a smoothly-oiled machine, except that every now and then–well, much of the time–things go awry. Like when they have to postpone operations because the operating room is infested with rats:

More @ Annals of Government Medicine | Power Line

:banned::banned:
 
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dblack

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I go on about facts because that's all that interests me. I've posted links in the past and the rw's studiously avoid them. I now post very few links concerning ACA. It is you who has made the wild-eyed claims, all based on ignorance, and it is YOU who has not proven your opinions to be true. Just the opposite - your posts prove that you have not read anything more enlightening or fact-based than fux, britebart, dredge, lushbo, beck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you got nothing? Seriously, you keep responding with screeds referring to "the facts" and accusing me of not understanding PPACA, yet you've consistently failed to point out anything that I'm factually wrong about.

If you think we have some key disagreement on the facts, then speak up. What is it? I assume you haven't answered yet because the facts, despite your droning to the contrary, aren't really in question. It's our subjective evaluation of the trade-off at the core of PPACA. Some of us aren't willing to trade off fundamental liberty for temporary (and questionable) promises of security.
 
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dblack

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There are a few states that are going to opt out of the mandated exchanges, which is going to cause massive problems since people that participate in them are not eligible for federal insurance subsidies. There are also states that are opting out of the Medicare expansion provisions, this site has a pretty good rundown of which states are doing what.

State Political Shifts Likely To Affect Health Law – Capsules - The KHN Blog

I am not sure if we can count the trend toward part time employees as part of the battle against Obamacare, but it is happening, and it is a direct result of the requirement to provide insurance to employees that are working more than 30 hours.

Right. I doubt that effort will hold up (by itself) to the feds - who have far more power than they need to strong arm the states. But it might grow a decent grassroots opposition among voters, which could have some effect. That'll move pretty slowly though.
 

Luddly Neddite

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I go on about facts because that's all that interests me. I've posted links in the past and the rw's studiously avoid them. I now post very few links concerning ACA. It is you who has made the wild-eyed claims, all based on ignorance, and it is YOU who has not proven your opinions to be true. Just the opposite - your posts prove that you have not read anything more enlightening or fact-based than fux, britebart, dredge, lushbo, beck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you got nothing? Seriously, you keep responding with screeds referring to "the facts" and accusing me of not understanding PPACA, yet you've consistently failed to point out anything that I'm factually wrong about.

If you think we have some key disagreement on the facts, then speak up. What is it? I assume you haven't answered yet because the facts, despite your droning to the contrary, aren't really in question. It's our subjective evaluation of the trade-off at the core of PPACA. Some of us aren't willing to trade off fundamental liberty for temporary (and questionable) promises of security.

Actually, you do exactly what you have done in this post - You cherry pick part of my post, ignore what I've said, accuse me of saying things I did not say and then say its up to me to hold your hand and lead you out of the dark.

I'll say this one LAST time -

You have the same choice that everyone else does. You can educate yourself, you can choose to make this work for you and your family, for yours and your family's future. (Actually, you sound very young and I understand you may not have a family and so, therefore, don't understand just how important health care insurance can be.)

OR - you can whine and bitch, strut around throwing childish little tantrums and making really stupid threats and demand someone else do your homework for you.

It looks to me like you've made your choice.

You and I are finished until and unless you can bring FACTS to the discussion. Because, even though you obviously don't know it, that's really all that matters - FACTS.
 

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