The facts on Windpower

[skookerasbil]

More on the humongous myths about green jobs.............a paper.............

Green Jobs Myths by Andrew Morriss, William Bogart, Andrew Dorchak, Roger Meiners :: SSRN

 

[Flopper]

How do you have a "wind surplus" on something that doesn't produce SQUAT on thursdays and half of Sunday? You can't build out wind to a "surplus" unless you HAVE a spare nuke plant to back it up... It's all hype and fantasy..

Yeah.. Building more of it will fix those gaps in energy production. NO! -- building MORE will make those gaps WORSE and more expensive to fill.

Do understand the power grid?

Electric power can be added to or taken from the grid to balance out surpluses and shortages. Thus, periods of low generation in one area can be supplemented by high generation in another. Power grids can accommodate all types of generation, oil, gas, coal, solar, nuclear, wind power, and solar power. Wind provides about 2% of our electric power, solar 6%, and all forms of alternative energy about 10%.

Alternative forms of energy are only supplements to prime energy sources. Whether they become a prime source of energy depends on two main factors, increasing cost of fossil fuels and global warming.

Where Does U.S. Electricity Come From? | mapawatt

Uhhhh. I'm a senior member of IEEE with 25+ years in electronics design and Research and Development. That OK with you?

Can you accomodate a 20% change in grid supply in a manner of minutes? Do you understand that California outlawed long term contracts for power and wakes up every morning and buys whatever's left on the market? DO you have a back-up coal or nuke plant sitting idle waiting for the wind farm to brown out? What is the thermal time constant of a coal plant? What happens if you overload the grid with a wind spike?

So many questions, so little comprehension.. You (the general public) have been fed so much garbage on this fantasy that you can't even FIND reality.. Reality is --- integrating the already inefficient and unreliable wind turbines into a grid leads to MASSIVE inefficientcies in swapping sources and idling plants and paying for staff, facilities and maintenance on OTHER plants to back them up.

<edited to compliment you>

Congrats on getting to the realization that wind and solar are SUPPLEMENTS. I'm heartened by that understanding.

Wind and solar will be supplements to the prime sources of energy for many years. Even the most optimistic alternative energy pundits are looking at 20 to 30 years before alternative energy sources compete will coal, natural gas, and nuclear. If the costs of fossil fuels and global temperatures continue to rise, there is no doubt that fossil fuels will become secondary fuel sources. However, I doubt the world will ever do away with them altogether.

Both sun and wind power is always in constant supply somewhere, making it a dependable source of energy. Supercapcitors can be combined with solar power and nuclear power to eliminate much of the variability in supply. I have no doubt that our grids will change to accommodate local changes in supply as they do demand.

 

[bripat9643]

Texas Hits New Record For Wind Power Generation | StateImpact Texas

Did it seem windy to you last night? Because at 8:41 p.m. Wednesday, the Texas grid set a new record for wind power generation, reaching 7,599 megawatts.

The previous record was set the day before, with 7,403 megawatts. Before that, the biggest day of wind power generation in Texas was Oct. 7, 2011, with 7,400 megawatts of power.

When the record was reached, wind was supplying 22 percent of the grid’s power. That’s not actually a record, it got up to 26 percent last December.

And the following morning the output was 74 megawatts. Coal and gas fired generators came online to take up the slack.

And we have not even began to tap the potential in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Colorado.

How many people live in all those states combined, 10 million?

 

[bripat9643]

You can these facts?
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
Mark Twain

Someone who indulges in cheap ad hominems as you do is in no position to be complaining about someone else's facts.

 

[Old Rocks]

Texas Hits New Record For Wind Power Generation | StateImpact Texas

Did it seem windy to you last night? Because at 8:41 p.m. Wednesday, the Texas grid set a new record for wind power generation, reaching 7,599 megawatts.

The previous record was set the day before, with 7,403 megawatts. Before that, the biggest day of wind power generation in Texas was Oct. 7, 2011, with 7,400 megawatts of power.

When the record was reached, wind was supplying 22 percent of the grid’s power. That’s not actually a record, it got up to 26 percent last December.

And the following morning the output was 74 megawatts. Coal and gas fired generators came online to take up the slack.

And we have not even began to tap the potential in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Colorado.

How many people live in all those states combined, 10 million?

Now Pattycake, see those steel towers marching across the horizon? And the aluminium cables they carry? They are called transmission lines, and they carry electricity for many hundreds of miles. Not exactly a new invention.

 

[Old Rocks]

You can these facts?
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please."
Mark Twain

Someone who indulges in cheap ad hominems as you do is in no position to be complaining about someone else's facts.

You have some facts? Who'd a thunk it

 

[bripat9643]

for those of you in favor of the windmills, answer this;

if its such a wonderful source of energy why are the subsidies needed. If it was so great wouldn't the big power companies be rushing to cash in on it, even without subsidies?


just sayin'.......

And why are we subsidizing oil and coal? Just sayin'.

We aren't. If we were, then I would say stop it, not start subsidizing something even more stupid.

 

[bripat9643]

Wind and solar will be supplements to the prime sources of energy for many years. Even the most optimistic alternative energy pundits are looking at 20 to 30 years before alternative energy sources compete will coal, natural gas, and nuclear. If the costs of fossil fuels and global temperatures continue to rise, there is no doubt that fossil fuels will become secondary fuel sources. However, I doubt the world will ever do away with them altogether.

Both sun and wind power is always in constant supply somewhere, making it a dependable source of energy. Supercapcitors can be combined with solar power and nuclear power to eliminate much of the variability in supply. I have no doubt that our grids will change to accommodate local changes in supply as they do demand.

"Super capacitors?" Where do you find these mythical devices, in the hardware store alongside the perpetual motion machines?

Green energy is a fantasy, and you just proved it.

 

[Flopper]

Wind and solar will be supplements to the prime sources of energy for many years. Even the most optimistic alternative energy pundits are looking at 20 to 30 years before alternative energy sources compete will coal, natural gas, and nuclear. If the costs of fossil fuels and global temperatures continue to rise, there is no doubt that fossil fuels will become secondary fuel sources. However, I doubt the world will ever do away with them altogether.

Both sun and wind power is always in constant supply somewhere, making it a dependable source of energy. Supercapcitors can be combined with solar power and nuclear power to eliminate much of the variability in supply. I have no doubt that our grids will change to accommodate local changes in supply as they do demand.

"Super capacitors?" Where do you find these mythical devices, in the hardware store alongside the perpetual motion machines?

Green energy is a fantasy, and you just proved it.

An electric double-layer capacitor (EDLC), also known as supercapacitor, supercondenser, electrochemical double layer capacitor, or ultracapacitor, is an electrochemical capacitor with relatively high energy density. Their energy density is typically hundreds of times greater than conventional electrolytic capacitors.

Maxwell Ultracapcitors are now being used for smoothing and storage of energy output of wind turbines.

Electric double-layer capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[flacaltenn]

Texas Hits New Record For Wind Power Generation | StateImpact Texas

Did it seem windy to you last night? Because at 8:41 p.m. Wednesday, the Texas grid set a new record for wind power generation, reaching 7,599 megawatts.

The previous record was set the day before, with 7,403 megawatts. Before that, the biggest day of wind power generation in Texas was Oct. 7, 2011, with 7,400 megawatts of power.

When the record was reached, wind was supplying 22 percent of the grid’s power. That’s not actually a record, it got up to 26 percent last December.

And the following morning the output was 74 megawatts. Coal and gas fired generators came online to take up the slack.

And we have not even began to tap the potential in Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Colorado.

How many people live in all those states combined, 10 million?

Now Pattycake, see those steel towers marching across the horizon? And the aluminium cables they carry? They are called transmission lines, and they carry electricity for many hundreds of miles. Not exactly a new invention.

That's not the issue YeOlderRocks.. The current grid avoids anarchy because folks engage in long term contracts to buy and sell blocks of generation.. The windnuts can't sign a delivery contract like everyone else's because they can't guarantee delivery. So they have to rely on gimmicks and govt intervention to even GET THEM on the grid. They can only quote "expected average deliveries" and have their hands out to get paid for "CURTAILING" their production when it threatens to overload the grid.
As usual, you rely on the "hope and change fairy" that's been working on this problem for over 20 years now..

http://jagger.me.berkeley.edu/~ebitar/journal_main_v1.pdf

A. Wind Energy
The inherent variability of the power output is the most
significant difference between wind and traditional power
generators. This variability occurs at various time scales:
seconds, hours, days, months, and years. As loads are also
uncertain and variable, the issue of wind power variability
does not cause major problems at low wind energy penetration
levels, but at deep penetration levels it presents major
engineering, economic and societal challenges. Recently, the
National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), has released
two major reports [17], [21] on integration of large amounts
of wind power (20-30%) into the Eastern and Western electric
grid interconnections in North America. These studies show
that limitations on the transmission system, increased need for
reserves, impact of unpredicted large ramps, limited accuracy
in wind forecasting, coordination among and conflicting objectives
of independent power producers, system operators, and
regulatory agencies, are some of the major issues in achieving
increased penetration of wind and solar energy.

Yeah, those Berkeley Commie geniuses go on to develop some really impressive mathematical statements about how to buy and sell wind. But, there is no intelligient being that's gonna buy it if their objective is to keep the lights on and avoid damaging those "shiny wires" you're so fond of..

 

[Article 15]

If we could find a way to harness all of the wind that comes out of the USMB Right Wingnut Brigade's ass here everyday it could power all 57 States.

True story.

 

[flacaltenn]

Wind and solar will be supplements to the prime sources of energy for many years. Even the most optimistic alternative energy pundits are looking at 20 to 30 years before alternative energy sources compete will coal, natural gas, and nuclear. If the costs of fossil fuels and global temperatures continue to rise, there is no doubt that fossil fuels will become secondary fuel sources. However, I doubt the world will ever do away with them altogether.

Both sun and wind power is always in constant supply somewhere, making it a dependable source of energy. Supercapcitors can be combined with solar power and nuclear power to eliminate much of the variability in supply. I have no doubt that our grids will change to accommodate local changes in supply as they do demand.

"Super capacitors?" Where do you find these mythical devices, in the hardware store alongside the perpetual motion machines?

Green energy is a fantasy, and you just proved it.

An electric double-layer capacitor (EDLC), also known as supercapacitor, supercondenser, electrochemical double layer capacitor, or ultracapacitor, is an electrochemical capacitor with relatively high energy density. Their energy density is typically hundreds of times greater than conventional electrolytic capacitors.

Maxwell Ultracapcitors are now being used for smoothing and storage of energy output of wind turbines.

Electric double-layer capacitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SuperCaps are great. They're great for golf carts, great for smoothing electrical generation, great for storing MODEST amounts of energy. The kind of turbines we're talking about are rated in the MEGAwatts. And supercaps are NOT viable for storing hours or even fractions of hours in generation from those fields.. They DO work to give the Grid operators enough reaction to pull a couple switches and avoid a brown-out or an overload.... And that's a good thing.

The specific energy of existing commercial EDLCs ranges from around 0.5 to 30 W·h/kg[28][29] including lithium ion capacitors, known also as a "hybrid capacitor". Experimental electric double-layer capacitors have demonstrated specific energies of 30 W·h/kg and have been shown to be scalable to at least 136 W·h/kg.[30][31] For comparison, a conventional lead-acid battery stores typically 30 to 40 W·h/kg and modern lithium-ion batteries about 160 W·h/kg. Gasoline has a net calorific value (NCV) of around 12,000 W·h/kg;

So a 1MW turbine producing at .4MW for an hour would require 2941Kg of supercap to "coast thru" an hour of windless time. (Ignoring charge/discharge effic.) As a result, that .4MW-hr would be delivered at a smoothed 0.2MW-hr over the 2 hour period or just 1/5 of the placarded capacity that the moron bought it to produce..

Clearly BETTER concept -- tho inefficient as hell is what the Danes did with the bulk of their wind capacity.. They built huge electric boilers and feed most of the wind power in to "pre-heat" those boilers. Forces them to complete the heating for generation by OTHER MEANS of generation (excess capacity of REAL energy gens like nat gas or whatever) which is very wasteful.

 

[skookerasbil]

Flacaltenn bro........you gotta make it over here more often and join the party. Always good to have yet another person come in a publically humiliate the true believing oddballs. This forum continues to be the one that provides the most entertainment in my book..........like going to a shooting gallery for a money contest and knowing that you'll get a bullseye on every shot!!


Been even more fun lately since the arrival of a couple of goofballs straight from Disney...........of course, I am always partial to the real mental cases = additional laughing for me.