The Death of a Presidency

[JoeB131]

Okay, I'm tired, I'm getting too philosophical and I'm done for the night.

I will spare myself the invective and take this concession of defeat with all due grace. You are throwing essays at me, not fact. Nothing to do with the thread, you can't even argue the thread and you never did.

I argued it very well, it was just your inability to understand.

Guy, you are 26. So I give you a little bit of slack as the only presidents you probably know are Bush and Obama. You are probably too young to even remember Clinton. (You'd have been about 13 when he left office, and there's a reason we don't let 13 years olds do much of anything.)

If you really think this is a story that's going to even be talked about in december, you really don't know how politics work.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You do realize that if a young person gets his/her insurance through an employer, the rate is the same as for the oldest person working at that company, right? Yet you bitch about the young person who you think should pay almost nothing for their coverage while we charge a person near retirement more than their house payment.

What? What got you so riled up? I would have to pay higher premiums simply because of my age! What young person would want to subject themselves to that?

Maybe a young person who actually planned on getting old and would one day be facing much much higher rates because the pool was not evened out at all to begin with. That is my point; in employer pools, the rates are the same regardless of your age. Employees generally don't realize this because they only pay a small percentage of the premium. In the old private market and now on the exchanges, the opposite is true. We give the young people the super cheap rates, but when they get older, they will pay out the ass. For some it will be more than they can afford. Those currently getting nailed are those over 60 who have incomes that are just over 400% of poverty level as they receive no subsidy. Medical costs for them will be extremely high, but you are crying about having to pay an extra $50 per month, possibly.

• Almost 80 percent of those aged 21 to 29 with incomes greater than 138 percent of the federal poverty level, or about $18,560 a year, can expect to pay more out of pocket for coverage than they pay today. Younger, healthier individuals can expect premiums to increase by more than 40 percent.
• In Ohio the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by nearly 700 percent, from $355.44 a year ($29.62 a month) in 2013 to $2,383.68 a year ($198.64 a month) in 2014.
• In California the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by 92 percent, from $1,212 a year ($101 a month) in 2013 to $2,196 a year ($183 a month) in 2014.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Okay, I'm tired, I'm getting too philosophical and I'm done for the night.

I will spare myself the invective and take this concession of defeat with all due grace. You are throwing essays at me, not fact. Nothing to do with the thread, you can't even argue the thread and you never did.

I argued it very well, it was just your inability to understand.

Guy, you are 26. So I give you a little bit of slack as the only presidents you probably know are Bush and Obama. You are probably too young to even remember Clinton. (You'd have been about 13 when he left office, and there's a reason we don't let 13 years olds do much of anything.)

If you really think this is a story that's going to even be talked about in december, you really don't know how politics work.

You think I wouldn't know how to research all of the American presidents in history? How they were elected, how they ran their presidencies? How odd, you haven't argued much at all. Just that 'the ACA isn't going away' and that 'it was the right thing to do.'

How bemusing. I understand completely how inept you are. You cannot for the life of you provide facts to back up your statements. You throw one big number after another out, make one unsubstantiated claim after the next. I know well how politics work. I also adhere to a simple principle of cause and effect.

Cause: Obama fucked up his own law.

Effect: His law is now dead. And he will be on the hook for it for the rest of his term.

Cause: Obama lied about people keeping their insurance and their doctors, and said people would pay less for their insurance

Effect: Millions of people lost their insurance and found themselves staring more expensive healthcare options in the face.

Cause: Joe gives no reasoning behind his arguments on Obamacare's alleged successes.

Effect: TemplarKormac sweeps them aside with ease.

Philosophical my ass.

 

[WelfareQueen]

No one can polish the turd that is Obamacare. I watched CNN and MSNBC tonight. When they start calling it a disaster, it is time to abandon ship.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No one can polish the turd that is Obamacare. I watched CNN and MSNBC tonight. When they start calling it a disaster, it is time to abandon ship.

What ship?

 

[francoHFW]

It'll be fine, hater dupes, popular next year, and will bend the cost curve and cruelty curve down FOREVER...idiots.

 

[auditor0007]

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

The problem with empirical data like that is that it's not comparing apples to oranges in most cases. It does not take into account that most plans offered through the exchange offer better coverage including paying 100% for all preventative care. Many people may see their premiums increase, but their out of pocket will drop.

What bothers me is that most people like you will throw out these charts, but very few of you have actually compared plans and rates on your state's exchange, either because you have made up your mind that it's so horrible that you are just going to go without insurance, but more likely because you already have insurance through your employer or you never intended to purchase health insurance to begin with. If the ladder is the case, then talking to you is pointless.

Excuse me? If you're going to make a point, do it. Do not resort to ad hominem.

I did compare plans and rates. I will have to pay up to $170 a month and a $6,000 deductible out of pocket! Do you really think I'm that stupid, auditor? I'm not talking out of my ass, I've already done my homework, unlike some people. You speak from personal experience and nothing more.

Are you sick? If you are, you should at least purchase a silver plan with a much lower deductible, but of course you know that. I will assume you are healthy since you chose the bronze plan. Now since you are healthy, you get all your basic yearly physicals and tests at no cost to you. Take advantage of having the blood work done every year. You can learn a lot and if something is wrong, an awful lot of the time it will show up in simple blood work. It'll be covered 100%, so take advantage. Things like that will reduce long term costs. Basically, you will now be able to go to the doctor for a yearly physical, have blood work done, and it won't cost you a dime above your $170 per month. If something horrible happens and you become seriously ill, then you will be covered but you will get hit with that deductible. The good thing is that with that high of a deductible, you almost have fulfilled your max out of pocket once you hit is, so anything after that is covered 100%.

Here is the thing; you mention the $6000 deductible like it is this big boogie man. If you're healthy, it's nothing, because you will never pay anything toward it. The $170 is it per month. Here is another thing. Most likely your old plan had limits on coverage. Some limits were lifetime and there may also have been yearly limits. This is very important, because if you become seriously sick, the cost can be astronomical. My late wife battled leukemia for ten months before losing her battle. That was over eleven years ago, and her bills totaled over $1.3 million. Today that would be well over $2 million, which was the cap on most policies before the ACA. Without insurance, she would not have had any chance at beating her cancer, because they would not have performed a stem cell transplant. Those are only offered to those with coverage because the cost is so high. At the time, the cost for the transplant itself was over $500,000.

Healthcare isn't cheap, and the reason we try to pool the cost and divide it among everyone is for the simple reason that you just don't know who is going to get sick and who is not. Your plan that will cost you $170 per month is just over $2000 per year. If you earn $31000 per year (that is the amount where you would not get a tax credit if you are single), then that is only 6% of your income. Add in your contribution to Medicare and your employers also, and you are now at around 8.5% of income. As a country we are spending almost 18% of GDP on healthcare. This means you are getting one great deal.

This all gets back to people just not understanding how much health care actually costs. There is this delusion that we can pay $100 per month and have all our medical bills covered if we get sick. The numbers just don't add up. As so many of you on the right continue to remind us, it's not free.

 

[auditor0007]

Indeed. taxpayers subsidizing...it's all FREE don't you know?

Yay, another clueless waste of space between the ears.

Yay! Another liberal who can't stop calling people stupid. Looked in the mirror lately?

You know what? If someone is going to throw shit at me, I'm going to throw it right back.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The problem with empirical data like that is that it's not comparing apples to oranges in most cases. It does not take into account that most plans offered through the exchange offer better coverage including paying 100% for all preventative care. Many people may see their premiums increase, but their out of pocket will drop.

What bothers me is that most people like you will throw out these charts, but very few of you have actually compared plans and rates on your state's exchange, either because you have made up your mind that it's so horrible that you are just going to go without insurance, but more likely because you already have insurance through your employer or you never intended to purchase health insurance to begin with. If the ladder is the case, then talking to you is pointless.

Excuse me? If you're going to make a point, do it. Do not resort to ad hominem.

I did compare plans and rates. I will have to pay up to $170 a month and a $6,000 deductible out of pocket! Do you really think I'm that stupid, auditor? I'm not talking out of my ass, I've already done my homework, unlike some people. You speak from personal experience and nothing more.

Are you sick? If you are, you should at least purchase a silver plan with a much lower deductible, but of course you know that. I will assume you are healthy since you chose the bronze plan. Now since you are healthy, you get all your basic yearly physicals and tests at no cost to you. Take advantage of having the blood work done every year. You can learn a lot and if something is wrong, an awful lot of the time it will show up in simple blood work. It'll be covered 100%, so take advantage. Things like that will reduce long term costs. Basically, you will now be able to go to the doctor for a yearly physical, have blood work done, and it won't cost you a dime above your $170 per month. If something horrible happens and you become seriously ill, then you will be covered but you will get hit with that deductible. The good thing is that with that high of a deductible, you almost have fulfilled your max out of pocket once you hit is, so anything after that is covered 100%.

Here is the thing; you mention the $6000 deductible like it is this big boogie man. If you're healthy, it's nothing, because you will never pay anything toward it. The $170 is it per month. Here is another thing. Most likely your old plan had limits on coverage. Some limits were lifetime and there may also have been yearly limits. This is very important, because if you become seriously sick, the cost can be astronomical. My late wife battled leukemia for ten months before losing her battle. That was over eleven years ago, and her bills totaled over $1.3 million. Today that would be well over $2 million, which was the cap on most policies before the ACA. Without insurance, she would not have had any chance at beating her cancer, because they would not have performed a stem cell transplant. Those are only offered to those with coverage because the cost is so high. At the time, the cost for the transplant itself was over $500,000.

Healthcare isn't cheap, and the reason we try to pool the cost and divide it among everyone is for the simple reason that you just don't know who is going to get sick and who is not. Your plan that will cost you $170 per month is just over $2000 per year. If you earn $31000 per year (that is the amount where you would not get a tax credit if you are single), then that is only 6% of your income. Add in your contribution to Medicare and your employers also, and you are now at around 8.5% of income. As a country we are spending almost 18% of GDP on healthcare. This means you are getting one great deal.

This all gets back to people just not understanding how much health care actually costs. There is this delusion that we can pay $100 per month and have all our medical bills covered if we get sick. The numbers just don't add up. As so many of you on the right continue to remind us, it's not free.

The simple delusion here, auditor, is that a young person like myself would be foolish enough to swallow such enormous rate hikes simply because you deem the plan associated with it as best one for me. I could stare a hole in these plans, and they would be no more affordable to me than when I first laid eyes on them. Given that I have no taxable income, I would not qualify for any subsidies under the law.

Chew on these facts while I'm asleep.

1. People like you try to downplay “rate shock” figures like mine, by noting that costs will go down for some older folks. True. But what comfort would it be for a millennial faced with a 92 percent premium increase to know that his 64-year-old neighbor will enjoy a 10 percent decrease?


Don't believe me? Google is a mouse click away.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Yay, another clueless waste of space between the ears.

Yay! Another liberal who can't stop calling people stupid. Looked in the mirror lately?

You know what? If someone is going to throw shit at me, I'm going to throw it right back.

Perhaps that is why you're losing this argument.

 

[auditor0007]

What? What got you so riled up? I would have to pay higher premiums simply because of my age! What young person would want to subject themselves to that?

Maybe a young person who actually planned on getting old and would one day be facing much much higher rates because the pool was not evened out at all to begin with. That is my point; in employer pools, the rates are the same regardless of your age. Employees generally don't realize this because they only pay a small percentage of the premium. In the old private market and now on the exchanges, the opposite is true. We give the young people the super cheap rates, but when they get older, they will pay out the ass. For some it will be more than they can afford. Those currently getting nailed are those over 60 who have incomes that are just over 400% of poverty level as they receive no subsidy. Medical costs for them will be extremely high, but you are crying about having to pay an extra $50 per month, possibly.

• Almost 80 percent of those aged 21 to 29 with incomes greater than 138 percent of the federal poverty level, or about $18,560 a year, can expect to pay more out of pocket for coverage than they pay today. Younger, healthier individuals can expect premiums to increase by more than 40 percent.
• In Ohio the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by nearly 700 percent, from $355.44 a year ($29.62 a month) in 2013 to $2,383.68 a year ($198.64 a month) in 2014.
• In California the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by 92 percent, from $1,212 a year ($101 a month) in 2013 to $2,196 a year ($183 a month) in 2014.

The problem is that your source was wrong. This was a bunch of political BS put on by state Republicans who were completely against the ACA. The actual numbers do not bare any of this out. First of all, for $29 per month you aren't going to get shit. I did find some current plans available for very cheap. The cheapest was $47.12 per month that covered absolutely nothing until the $10,000 deductible is met. It's a catastrophic plan, which btw are available to those under the age of 30.

So let's look at this. With that plan tha costs $565 per year, you go for your yearly physical and blood work, and it costs you another $600 minimum for the physical and blood tests, if you get a real physical and not some sports physical where all they do is tap your knees to check your reflexes. If you get any kind of illness and need meds, it's all out of pocket, no matter how expensive the meds are because nothing is covered until you hit that $10,000 deductible. Under the new rules, you will pay more, but I'm pretty sure it's not $198 per month. I'm 50 and found a Bronze plan that only costs $316 per month with a reputable company that is accepted by all three of my doctors along with the local urgent care center. With the new plan, you get a drug benefit, and all the preventative stuff is covered. Will you pay more overall? Maybe a slight bit. Then again it may actually save you a lot.

 

[auditor0007]

Excuse me? If you're going to make a point, do it. Do not resort to ad hominem.

I did compare plans and rates. I will have to pay up to $170 a month and a $6,000 deductible out of pocket! Do you really think I'm that stupid, auditor? I'm not talking out of my ass, I've already done my homework, unlike some people. You speak from personal experience and nothing more.

Are you sick? If you are, you should at least purchase a silver plan with a much lower deductible, but of course you know that. I will assume you are healthy since you chose the bronze plan. Now since you are healthy, you get all your basic yearly physicals and tests at no cost to you. Take advantage of having the blood work done every year. You can learn a lot and if something is wrong, an awful lot of the time it will show up in simple blood work. It'll be covered 100%, so take advantage. Things like that will reduce long term costs. Basically, you will now be able to go to the doctor for a yearly physical, have blood work done, and it won't cost you a dime above your $170 per month. If something horrible happens and you become seriously ill, then you will be covered but you will get hit with that deductible. The good thing is that with that high of a deductible, you almost have fulfilled your max out of pocket once you hit is, so anything after that is covered 100%.

Here is the thing; you mention the $6000 deductible like it is this big boogie man. If you're healthy, it's nothing, because you will never pay anything toward it. The $170 is it per month. Here is another thing. Most likely your old plan had limits on coverage. Some limits were lifetime and there may also have been yearly limits. This is very important, because if you become seriously sick, the cost can be astronomical. My late wife battled leukemia for ten months before losing her battle. That was over eleven years ago, and her bills totaled over $1.3 million. Today that would be well over $2 million, which was the cap on most policies before the ACA. Without insurance, she would not have had any chance at beating her cancer, because they would not have performed a stem cell transplant. Those are only offered to those with coverage because the cost is so high. At the time, the cost for the transplant itself was over $500,000.

Healthcare isn't cheap, and the reason we try to pool the cost and divide it among everyone is for the simple reason that you just don't know who is going to get sick and who is not. Your plan that will cost you $170 per month is just over $2000 per year. If you earn $31000 per year (that is the amount where you would not get a tax credit if you are single), then that is only 6% of your income. Add in your contribution to Medicare and your employers also, and you are now at around 8.5% of income. As a country we are spending almost 18% of GDP on healthcare. This means you are getting one great deal.

This all gets back to people just not understanding how much health care actually costs. There is this delusion that we can pay $100 per month and have all our medical bills covered if we get sick. The numbers just don't add up. As so many of you on the right continue to remind us, it's not free.

The simple delusion here, auditor, is that a young person like myself would be foolish enough to swallow such enormous rate hikes simply because you deem the plan associated with it as best one for me. I could stare a hole in these plans, and they would be no more affordable to me than when I first laid eyes on them. Given that I have no taxable income, I would not qualify for any subsidies under the law.

Chew on these facts while I'm asleep.

1. People like you try to downplay “rate shock” figures like mine, by noting that costs will go down for some older folks. True. But what comfort would it be for a millennial faced with a 92 percent premium increase to know that his 64-year-old neighbor will enjoy a 10 percent decrease?


Don't believe me? Google is a mouse click away.

Wait until you are 64. I hate to keep bringing this up but if you were getting your insurance through your employer, the cost would be much much higher. Did you know that? Hell, just your contribution might be higher. The reason is that employers pay the same rate for the 64 year old as they do the 25 year old. Something tells me you didn't know that.

BTW, you do have an option. Just don't buy insurance. If you get sick, fuck it. You can file for bankruptcy. It's what all self reliant people do when they can't pay their bills.

 

[auditor0007]

Yay! Another liberal who can't stop calling people stupid. Looked in the mirror lately?

You know what? If someone is going to throw shit at me, I'm going to throw it right back.

Perhaps that is why you're losing this argument.

Hardly.

The difference is that I do not claim that the whole thing is a bed of roses. I know there are problems and it doesn't work out wonderfully for everyone, but for those who have to pay a tiny bit more or a tiny bit less, it's a wash in my book. The ones I feel for are the ones who are getting hit with huge dollar increases and really cannot afford it.

I'll tell you something; get really sick once, and spend some time in the hospital. You'll start understanding a lot better.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Maybe a young person who actually planned on getting old and would one day be facing much much higher rates because the pool was not evened out at all to begin with. That is my point; in employer pools, the rates are the same regardless of your age. Employees generally don't realize this because they only pay a small percentage of the premium. In the old private market and now on the exchanges, the opposite is true. We give the young people the super cheap rates, but when they get older, they will pay out the ass. For some it will be more than they can afford. Those currently getting nailed are those over 60 who have incomes that are just over 400% of poverty level as they receive no subsidy. Medical costs for them will be extremely high, but you are crying about having to pay an extra $50 per month, possibly.

• Almost 80 percent of those aged 21 to 29 with incomes greater than 138 percent of the federal poverty level, or about $18,560 a year, can expect to pay more out of pocket for coverage than they pay today. Younger, healthier individuals can expect premiums to increase by more than 40 percent.
• In Ohio the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by nearly 700 percent, from $355.44 a year ($29.62 a month) in 2013 to $2,383.68 a year ($198.64 a month) in 2014.
• In California the cost of a basic plan for a healthy 25-year-old male will jump by 92 percent, from $1,212 a year ($101 a month) in 2013 to $2,196 a year ($183 a month) in 2014.

The problem is that your source was wrong. This was a bunch of political BS put on by state Republicans who were completely against the ACA. The actual numbers do not bare any of this out. First of all, for $29 per month you aren't going to get shit. I did find some current plans available for very cheap. The cheapest was $47.12 per month that covered absolutely nothing until the $10,000 deductible is met. It's a catastrophic plan, which btw are available to those under the age of 30.

So let's look at this. With that plan tha costs $565 per year, you go for your yearly physical and blood work, and it costs you another $600 minimum for the physical and blood tests, if you get a real physical and not some sports physical where all they do is tap your knees to check your reflexes. If you get any kind of illness and need meds, it's all out of pocket, no matter how expensive the meds are because nothing is covered until you hit that $10,000 deductible. Under the new rules, you will pay more, but I'm pretty sure it's not $198 per month. I'm 50 and found a Bronze plan that only costs $316 per month with a reputable company that is accepted by all three of my doctors along with the local urgent care center. With the new plan, you get a drug benefit, and all the preventative stuff is covered. Will you pay more overall? Maybe a slight bit. Then again it may actually save you a lot.

You say my source is wrong, but then you throw more words at me. That isn't a sufficient rebuttal. Like I said before, you speak more from personal experience and nothing more.

I can't help but say your response is nothing more than an attempt to sell a broken healthcare law. Not buying.

 

[oreo]

It'll be fine, hater dupes, popular next year, and will bend the cost curve and cruelty curve down FOREVER...idiots.

You're a faithful Obamalong. You appear to be young and probably unisured. Obamacare was designed for you loosers, that never took personal responsibility for their own insurance needs--much less had pay for it. There's millions of your kind out there.

So get on the dam web-site--if it's a state run Obamacare-website-they're functioning wonderfully--if it's the federal site wait-your ass off-and buy your own dam Obamacare insurance.

This is the ONLY way you and yours are going to save OBAMACARE and OBAMA. Otherwise Obamacare collapses, burying Obama underneath the rubble.

Put up--or shut up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I live in Ohio. I do know that for those over 60, the plans tend to be more expensive. Your age will have a big impact on the final numbers. Younger people are getting pretty good deals. We seem to forget that if you get your insurance through a company, age doesn't come into play because companies get their insurance rated based on the average age of all the employees at the company. This means that they young 25 year old pays the same as the 63 year old. Employees don't really see that because the employer is paying the bulk of the premium to begin with. Personally, I think the exchanges should have been rated on a much less progressive scale where older people only paid up to two times as much as younger people rather than up to three times, and that three times is questionable because from what I've seen, a lot of plans for those 60 and above seem to be much more than three times the premium than for those in their twenties.

Younger people are the ones getting royally screwed because the law says that insurance companies cannot charge then a price that has anything to do with their age, general health, or lack of risk factors.

You do realize that if a young person gets his/her insurance through an employer, the rate is the same as for the oldest person working at that company, right? Yet you bitch about the young person who you think should pay almost nothing for their coverage while we charge a person near retirement more than their house payment.

You do realize that, if it actually works that way, you were lying about preexisting conditions, getting dropped from insurance polices, the inherent discrimination of making people who are sick pay more, and every other fucking lie you used to defend Obamacare since it came out?

That leads me to ask you, were you lying then, are you lying now, or is it both?

 

[TemplarKormac]

You know what? If someone is going to throw shit at me, I'm going to throw it right back.

Perhaps that is why you're losing this argument.

I'll tell you something; get really sick once, and spend some time in the hospital. You'll start understanding a lot better.

You're in luck! I've been in the hospital twice in the past two years. One was for a nervous breakdown, the other was for kidney stones. All of $11,000 in costs. I got the first paid for by filing for charity assistance. I am currently working on doing the same thing with my visit this past July.

You know what? Neither of those instances conveyed to me the need to buy government sponsored healthcare insurance.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

The problem with empirical data like that is that it's not comparing apples to oranges in most cases. It does not take into account that most plans offered through the exchange offer better coverage including paying 100% for all preventative care. Many people may see their premiums increase, but their out of pocket will drop.

What bothers me is that most people like you will throw out these charts, but very few of you have actually compared plans and rates on your state's exchange, either because you have made up your mind that it's so horrible that you are just going to go without insurance, but more likely because you already have insurance through your employer or you never intended to purchase health insurance to begin with. If the ladder is the case, then talking to you is pointless.

By all means, lets compare apples to apples.

You pick a plan from the exchange in Ohio, or whatever state you think has lower premiums, lay out all its benefits, the premiums, the copays, and everything else, and I will find a comparable plan, for less, that was available last year.

Unless, that is, you are scared to actually see how stupid it is Hummers to Camrys and see how it works for real people who actually know what they need.

Better yet, let me have someone who supported Obamacare tell you what they think of idiots like you. Go watch the video, unless the truth scares you.

Powers slams Obamacare excuses: 'My blood pressure goes up' | The Daily Caller

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No Joey...you did. The INTENT was there. Are all you Commies this stupid?

No, I didn't go into any details.

Sorry, man. I mean, I'd like to, because frankly, I'm just not understanding how people who would actually benefit from the ACA are opposed to it.

It doesn't affect my life one way or the other. I support it because it's the right thing to do, even if it isn't the best way to do it.

The vast majority of people who are receiving these cancellation notices have not even bothered to see what is available on the exchanges. If they bothered to look and ran all the numbers, most of them will find that they will get better overall coverage for the same amount or maybe even a little less. If they are eligible for a subsidy, it is almost certain to be less.

You know this because you have a way to see what each and every single person on the planet is doing, or are you just spouting nonsense in order to defend something even Obama has said is indefensible?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[

Why are you lying to me? If the ACA indeed goes nowhere, you may very well lose your insurance when the employer mandate kicks in. Talk about the rubber meeting the road Joe. It was this sort of cockiness that destroyed our healthcare system in the first place. Perhaps you're still defending this law because it hasn't impacted you directly. So you have no idea in hell what this law is doing to people.

The point is, the ACA is going to collapse. All the symptoms are there. Higher premiums, millions more uninsured and counting, lack of enrollees. More signups in Medicare. The law is a failure. Obama finally saw the light and put it out of its misery via executive order.

Guy, you all need to stop listening to Limbaugh.

The Employer mandate has NO EFFECT on group plans that already exist. It only applies to those cheap ass companies the provide bad insurance or no insurance when they have more than 50 employees.

The ACA is going nowhere. Obama just stuck it to big insurance.

You need to stop listening to Obama and start listening to Obama.