The Christian Tithe ripoff.

[Mickiel]

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?

God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of anything material, but we do. Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.

You don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal

 

[Mudda]

Okay, but look at it this way. You believe in alien abductions based on a relative handful of accounts that have happened over what, the last 50 years or so? Yet you completely dismiss the huge volume of accounts from people who have encountered God over thousands of years. Why do you insist on far more evidence for the existence of God than you do for alien abductions?

What evidence beyond anecdotal do you have of alien abductions?

Using that same standard, absolutely things can be traced back to having been done by God. And my belief goes further than just the anecdotal, because I personally have proof of God working, proof that satisfies me. It is the same kind of proof you would have if you personally were abducted by aliens but they returned you with no proof that anyone else would accept.

The bottom line remains, your belief in alien abductions is based on faith, just as my belief in God began with faith.

There's is no real proof of god's intervention that I know of. And there's no proof of anything that the bible says that god did.

There's is no real proof of god's intervention that I know of. And there's no proof of anything that the bible says that god did.
As for alien abductions, real things have happened, you just seem not to accept them.

I remain agnostic on the alien thing, but I continue to point out that there is no real evidence of alien abductions and that your belief in them is faith based. You have faith, but malign mine.

Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.

We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars. There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works? You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence. You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before.

Of course you haven't. You pay no attention to what missionaries do.

As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.

Ah, therein lies the rub. We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM. IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands. If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out. He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.

As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?

And again you demand more and more proof. That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence. The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.

But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.

Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years. You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians. The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.

 

[Mudda]

You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it. On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.

If god comes to me in person I'll bring him to CNN (or to the Supreme Court, if you prefer), and we'll all be able to see him, touch him, get real answers to questions, see some real miracles or whatever anyone needs to see to prove himself, all on live TV for everyone to see.

 

[Mickiel]

Believers did not tithe in the New Testament , but Christianity ignores that because its not profitable. They ignore the bible when its convenient.

 

[hadit]

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?

God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of anything material, but we do. Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.

You don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal

Oh I get what you're saying, all right. Why are you so obsessed with the tithe if it does not effect you at all?

 

[hadit]

You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it. On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.

If god comes to me in person I'll bring him to CNN (or to the Supreme Court, if you prefer), and we'll all be able to see him, touch him, get real answers to questions, see some real miracles or whatever anyone needs to see to prove himself, all on live TV for everyone to see.

And if He goes to you in person while you're completely alone and will not go on CNN, will you believe in Him, or will you insist on having your belief validated by others?

And, of course, I have to ask why you insist on this level of evidence for God's existence while accepting alien abductions with none.

 

[Mickiel]

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?

God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of anything material, but we do. Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.

You don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal

Oh I get what you're saying, all right. Why are you so obsessed with the tithe if it does not effect you at all?

Its the topic of the thread. What you call obsession , I call pounding the Christians on the head. Its my pleasure ; my calling.

 

[hadit]

There's is no real proof of god's intervention that I know of. And there's no proof of anything that the bible says that god did.

I remain agnostic on the alien thing, but I continue to point out that there is no real evidence of alien abductions and that your belief in them is faith based. You have faith, but malign mine.

Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.

We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars. There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works? You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence. You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before.

Of course you haven't. You pay no attention to what missionaries do.

As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.

Ah, therein lies the rub. We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM. IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands. If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out. He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.

As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?

And again you demand more and more proof. That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence. The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.

But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.

Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years. You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians. The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Their own accounts. You know, those things that you accept from a handful of alien abductees but reject from millions of people throughout thousands of years of human history.

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

Actually, it does work. Your problem is you're insisting God has to act like an ATM and submit to man's testing in order to exist. He is not and does not. And He helps far more than your limited imagination can conjure up. You don't insist that someone be able to call down a UFO before you believe his abduction story , do you?

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

You know full well that you would reject any proof out of hand unless God shows up at your door and goes on CNN with you. I've said it before, God is not interested in doing tricks.

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

And I've said it before, we have stronger evidence for the existence of God than you have for the existence of UFO's, because we have personal experience, while you have nothing but anecdotes.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.

And when you're looking for Him, He'll reveal Himself to you.

So, to recap, evidence required for you to accept God's existence - physical appearance to you personally, followed by appearances on CNN at your command, complete with scientifically verifiable tricks.

Evidence required for you to proclaim the existence of UFO's - a handful of accounts with no verifiable proof whatsoever.

Do I have that about right?

 

[hadit]

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?

God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of anything material, but we do. Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.

You don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal

Oh I get what you're saying, all right. Why are you so obsessed with the tithe if it does not effect you at all?

Its the topic of the thread. What you call obsession , I call pounding the Christians on the head. Its my pleasure ; my calling.

It's your obsession, because we've already shown where your argument is pointless. You're waving a Nerf foam baseball bat, thinking you're having an impact. You're not.

 

[hobelim]

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

Any so called personal experience of God based solely on reading the bible about other people who heard from God, but without any of the attending signs reported, is merely the product of an unrestrained imagination.

They may be onto something but what they are onto is a decade long decline in mental health and intellectual acuity from which many never recover..

They experience some things you don't, so you simply say they're crazy..

No, they experience the exact same thing that I experience when I read the Bible and I am not saying they are crazy. The difference is that when I read the fantastical stories in the Bible with the dead coming out of their graves and Jesus ascending bodily into heaven etc., I use well known facts about reality as a constraint on any possible explanation for these accounts, thinking rationally the only way that leads to comprehension, while others set reality aside just believe without any understanding about what it is that they claim to believe and plunge into fantasyland according to their own unrestrained imaginations and end up hopelessly confused calling good evil and evil good..

But, then again, a person who claims to believe in God , eternal life, and eternal condemnation and proclaims to have an experience of God limited to the words in a book, and then goes about teaching others to worship a human being, which that same book condemns as evil and punishable by death, even though they have never sought proof of its truth or had a confirming personal experience of the living God in their entire life, always being dogmatic about the words and subjects that they never understood, could qualify as suicidal if not outright crazy.

If you have not made some great errors in your speculations and you are not suicidal or crazy, is your professed faith that a three in one god, that you never have seen or heard from in your entire life, diddled a virgin and became an edible mangod, a deliberate desecration of the teachings of Jesus and brazen demonstration of rebellion against he who truly is God?

 

[Mickiel]

Do you think there are pennies in heaven? Or dimes? You think God uses dollar bills? Hey , there is no money in heaven.

What's God going to do with money?

God has no need of food, either, yet He expects us to provide food for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of buildings, yet He expects us to provide shelter for ourselves and our neighbors. He has no need of anything material, but we do. Our giving is not to benefit God, but to allow Him to use our generosity to bless others.

You don't get what I am saying , because your not supposed to. Christianity is spiritually blind to this, and will not see it. They are not supposed to be free of the tithe. Their supposed to have a covering over their understanding.

The Tithe is Illegal

Oh I get what you're saying, all right. Why are you so obsessed with the tithe if it does not effect you at all?

Its the topic of the thread. What you call obsession , I call pounding the Christians on the head. Its my pleasure ; my calling.

It's your obsession, because we've already shown where your argument is pointless. You're waving a Nerf foam baseball bat, thinking you're having an impact. You're not.

Christians can't "Show" me anything, that would be like going back to Egypt. You say I am not having an impact , the thread says 628 replies and 19,163 views ; I'll go with the obvious, rather than pay attention to your envy.

Welcome to thread , see how it grows.

 

[Mudda]

You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it. On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.

If god comes to me in person I'll bring him to CNN (or to the Supreme Court, if you prefer), and we'll all be able to see him, touch him, get real answers to questions, see some real miracles or whatever anyone needs to see to prove himself, all on live TV for everyone to see.

And if He goes to you in person while you're completely alone and will not go on CNN, will you believe in Him, or will you insist on having your belief validated by others?

And, of course, I have to ask why you insist on this level of evidence for God's existence while accepting alien abductions with none.

Aliens have been touched, seen for real, abducted by, and some say aliens intervened in the human development as we were ape-like retards for millions of years and then 50,000 years ago or so, they started doing genetic experiments, because all of a sudden within a short time span, we became the smart species that we are today. God on the other hand, is still based on faith, the belief in something unproven. People with visions of things that aren't real can't be taken as proof, my brother said he was regularly talking to Jesus, and my other bro told him to shut up or they wouldn't let him out of the hospital he was in.
If god comes to me in person, I'll tell that to prove to me that he's real, that he goes and gives a press conference on the White House lawn, so everyone can agree that he's real. Seems pretty fair to me.

 

[Mudda]

Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.

We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars. There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works? You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence. You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before.

Of course you haven't. You pay no attention to what missionaries do.

As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.

Ah, therein lies the rub. We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM. IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands. If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out. He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.

As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?

And again you demand more and more proof. That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence. The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.

But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.

Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years. You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians. The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Their own accounts. You know, those things that you accept from a handful of alien abductees but reject from millions of people throughout thousands of years of human history.

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

Actually, it does work. Your problem is you're insisting God has to act like an ATM and submit to man's testing in order to exist. He is not and does not. And He helps far more than your limited imagination can conjure up. You don't insist that someone be able to call down a UFO before you believe his abduction story , do you?

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

You know full well that you would reject any proof out of hand unless God shows up at your door and goes on CNN with you. I've said it before, God is not interested in doing tricks.

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

And I've said it before, we have stronger evidence for the existence of God than you have for the existence of UFO's, because we have personal experience, while you have nothing but anecdotes.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.

And when you're looking for Him, He'll reveal Himself to you.

So, to recap, evidence required for you to accept God's existence - physical appearance to you personally, followed by appearances on CNN at your command, complete with scientifically verifiable tricks.

Evidence required for you to proclaim the existence of UFO's - a handful of accounts with no verifiable proof whatsoever.

Do I have that about right?

Forget UFOs, there's ton of real proof, they're real, that debate is over.

Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.

We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars. There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works? You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence. You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before.

Of course you haven't. You pay no attention to what missionaries do.

As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.

Ah, therein lies the rub. We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM. IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands. If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out. He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.

As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?

And again you demand more and more proof. That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence. The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.

But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.

Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years. You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians. The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Their own accounts. You know, those things that you accept from a handful of alien abductees but reject from millions of people throughout thousands of years of human history.

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

Actually, it does work. Your problem is you're insisting God has to act like an ATM and submit to man's testing in order to exist. He is not and does not. And He helps far more than your limited imagination can conjure up. You don't insist that someone be able to call down a UFO before you believe his abduction story , do you?

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

You know full well that you would reject any proof out of hand unless God shows up at your door and goes on CNN with you. I've said it before, God is not interested in doing tricks.

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

And I've said it before, we have stronger evidence for the existence of God than you have for the existence of UFO's, because we have personal experience, while you have nothing but anecdotes.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.

And when you're looking for Him, He'll reveal Himself to you.

So, to recap, evidence required for you to accept God's existence - physical appearance to you personally, followed by appearances on CNN at your command, complete with scientifically verifiable tricks.

Evidence required for you to proclaim the existence of UFO's - a handful of accounts with no verifiable proof whatsoever.

Do I have that about right?

Real things have happened to people that they have been able to prove, like disappearing for hours or days, you simply think they are liars. There is simply no proof whatsoever of god's intervention.

We've been over that whole proof thing before, and using your standard, the proof of God's existence is overwhelming.

Real things have happened to real people, like healing sicknesses through prayer, people returned from the dead, and supernatural protection while doing missions, and you think they are all liars. There is simply no real proof whatsoever of alien abductions.

See how that works? You have faith that alien abductions are real, despite having no real evidence. You are upset that I would challenge that faith, yet you have no problem asserting that my faith, which is based on not only a much larger data set than yours, but bolstered by personal experience, is false.

What is "supernatural protection while doing missions"? I've never heard of that before.

Of course you haven't. You pay no attention to what missionaries do.

As for healing through prayer, well, if prayer worked, then everyone would get healed, which they don't. 3 out of 3 billion who pray is simply happenstance more than anything else, lol.

Ah, therein lies the rub. We do not control God because He is a sovereign being, not an ATM. IOW, He decides when and where to act, and is not accountable to man's demands. If God were an ATM, once you figured out the right buttons to push, you would push them and the goodies would always fall out. He is not, therefore when Christians pray, they ask, not demand.

As for people coming back from the dead, what proof is there that an invisible person intervened? Anything?

And again you demand more and more proof. That is why God doesn't do the whole "Do a trick" method of proving His existence. The demands for more tricks would never stop, because anyone who didn't see the first one would demand one for themselves, and on it goes.

But what you're saying is that if I have faith that aliens exist, so can you have faith that your god exists? So you base your proof on something you thing is bogus (my supposed faith of aliens)? Not a very strong argument, brah.

Nope, just pointing out you don't have a strong position from which to mock the experiences of millions of people over thousands of years while giving credence to the experiences of a handful of people over a handful of years. You believe something by faith, so do millions of Christians. The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does.

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

"You pay no attention to what missionaries do." Everyone hears about missionaries, what proof of an invisible being protecting them is there?

Their own accounts. You know, those things that you accept from a handful of alien abductees but reject from millions of people throughout thousands of years of human history.

Like I said, praying hasn't been proven to work and if your god only listens to 3 out of 3 billion, then you're pretty much all wasting your time. 3 people out of 3 billion will get well just by chance. No god involved. And if your god only helps 3 out of 3 billion, he's a douche.

Actually, it does work. Your problem is you're insisting God has to act like an ATM and submit to man's testing in order to exist. He is not and does not. And He helps far more than your limited imagination can conjure up. You don't insist that someone be able to call down a UFO before you believe his abduction story , do you?

As for coming back from the dead, you're shocked that I ask for proof, "And again you demand more and more proof". Not more and more, how about starting with some? Any?

You know full well that you would reject any proof out of hand unless God shows up at your door and goes on CNN with you. I've said it before, God is not interested in doing tricks.

"The difference is, your belief results in no personal proof or experience while theirs does." Nobody's ever proven god, if you think they have, you're delusional, or can't think critically. And if you still think they have proven god, show me the proof.

And I've said it before, we have stronger evidence for the existence of God than you have for the existence of UFO's, because we have personal experience, while you have nothing but anecdotes.

If some invisible being wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am. Reading a book of fiction won't get it done. I'm totally open to it, just need something concrete to believe in. That seems pretty fair to me.

And when you're looking for Him, He'll reveal Himself to you.

So, to recap, evidence required for you to accept God's existence - physical appearance to you personally, followed by appearances on CNN at your command, complete with scientifically verifiable tricks.

Evidence required for you to proclaim the existence of UFO's - a handful of accounts with no verifiable proof whatsoever.

Do I have that about right?

Their own accounts is proof of supernatural protection? Ok, you have nothing with this.
As for prayer, there is no scientific proof that it works. Nothing here either.
As for returning from the dead, you have no proof of anything except that people imagined things. Nothing of what they imagined has proven that they are meeting god, going to heaven...
You say you have stronger evidence for the existence of god. Good, put some forward and I'll tell you if you have anything concrete.

 

[hadit]

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

Any so called personal experience of God based solely on reading the bible about other people who heard from God, but without any of the attending signs reported, is merely the product of an unrestrained imagination.

They may be onto something but what they are onto is a decade long decline in mental health and intellectual acuity from which many never recover..

They experience some things you don't, so you simply say they're crazy..

No, they experience the exact same thing that I experience when I read the Bible and I am not saying they are crazy. The difference is that when I read the fantastical stories in the Bible with the dead coming out of their graves and Jesus ascending bodily into heaven etc., I use well known facts about reality as a constraint on any possible explanation for these accounts, thinking rationally the only way that leads to comprehension, while others set reality aside just believe without any understanding about what it is that they claim to believe and plunge into fantasyland according to their own unrestrained imaginations and end up hopelessly confused calling good evil and evil good..

But, then again, a person who claims to believe in God , eternal life, and eternal condemnation and proclaims to have an experience of God limited to the words in a book, and then goes about teaching others to worship a human being, which that same book condemns as evil and punishable by death, even though they have never sought proof of its truth or had a confirming personal experience of the living God in their entire life, always being dogmatic about the words and subjects that they never understood, could qualify as suicidal if not outright crazy.

If you have not made some great errors in your speculations and you are not suicidal or crazy, is your professed faith that a three in one god, that you never have seen or heard from in your entire life, diddled a virgin and became an edible mangod, a deliberate desecration of the teachings of Jesus and brazen demonstration of rebellion against he who truly is God?

Your distortion of Scripture and absolute certainty that you know better what people experience than they do leads you inevitably into error.

 

[hadit]

You are setting two different parameters perhaps without realizing it. On the one hand, you say you would accept a personal introduction to God, but on the other hand God would have to appear in court so other people could verify His existence for you.

If god comes to me in person I'll bring him to CNN (or to the Supreme Court, if you prefer), and we'll all be able to see him, touch him, get real answers to questions, see some real miracles or whatever anyone needs to see to prove himself, all on live TV for everyone to see.

And if He goes to you in person while you're completely alone and will not go on CNN, will you believe in Him, or will you insist on having your belief validated by others?

And, of course, I have to ask why you insist on this level of evidence for God's existence while accepting alien abductions with none.

Aliens have been touched, seen for real, abducted by, and some say aliens intervened in the human development as we were ape-like retards for millions of years and then 50,000 years ago or so, they started doing genetic experiments, because all of a sudden within a short time span, we became the smart species that we are today. God on the other hand, is still based on faith, the belief in something unproven. People with visions of things that aren't real can't be taken as proof, my brother said he was regularly talking to Jesus, and my other bro told him to shut up or they wouldn't let him out of the hospital he was in.

You assert that aliens have been touched, seen for real, and have abducted people, yet there is no evidence beyond anecdote to support that assertion. When a person accepts that God is for real and enters into a relationship with Him, he has evidence that is personal to him and that other Christians understand. You have no personal experience with a UFO or an alien, so you are totally believing the whole thing by faith. Why is it so hard for you to admit that?

If god comes to me in person, I'll tell that to prove to me that he's real, that he goes and gives a press conference on the White House lawn, so everyone can agree that he's real. Seems pretty fair to me.

When He does do that, it will be to start the ultimate theocracy and faith won't be an issue any more.

 

[Mickiel]

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

Any so called personal experience of God based solely on reading the bible about other people who heard from God, but without any of the attending signs reported, is merely the product of an unrestrained imagination.

They may be onto something but what they are onto is a decade long decline in mental health and intellectual acuity from which many never recover..

They experience some things you don't, so you simply say they're crazy..

No, they experience the exact same thing that I experience when I read the Bible and I am not saying they are crazy. The difference is that when I read the fantastical stories in the Bible with the dead coming out of their graves and Jesus ascending bodily into heaven etc., I use well known facts about reality as a constraint on any possible explanation for these accounts, thinking rationally the only way that leads to comprehension, while others set reality aside just believe without any understanding about what it is that they claim to believe and plunge into fantasyland according to their own unrestrained imaginations and end up hopelessly confused calling good evil and evil good..

But, then again, a person who claims to believe in God , eternal life, and eternal condemnation and proclaims to have an experience of God limited to the words in a book, and then goes about teaching others to worship a human being, which that same book condemns as evil and punishable by death, even though they have never sought proof of its truth or had a confirming personal experience of the living God in their entire life, always being dogmatic about the words and subjects that they never understood, could qualify as suicidal if not outright crazy.

If you have not made some great errors in your speculations and you are not suicidal or crazy, is your professed faith that a three in one god, that you never have seen or heard from in your entire life, diddled a virgin and became an edible mangod, a deliberate desecration of the teachings of Jesus and brazen demonstration of rebellion against he who truly is God?

Your distortion of Scripture and absolute certainty that you know better what people experience than they do leads you inevitably into error.

Welcome to thread , see how it grows.

 

[Mickiel]

Christianity is being passed up and these little off the wall websites , or the weak of the world , are being given the truth ;

The Lie of Tithing

 

[ding]

Here's the bottom line. God wants you to believe in Him without scientifically verifiable proof. Now, He does prove Himself to those who believe in Him. You're willing to accept alien abductions without scientifically verifiable proof, so why do you have such a hard time accepting that millions of people over thousands of years who report the same experiences are on to something?

Sure, but not without reason.

Romans 1
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[ding]

Yes, as evidence of something I created, but maybe also as evidence of a murder committed by someone else. If I take a knife and kill someone with it, they don't accuse the creator of the knife.

Right. What you are saying here is that it is evidence, but that the determination of what it means must still be made. Exactly. In any trial or dispute there are usually at least two sides who don't agree. They usually discuss the exact same evidence and each provide expert testimony as to what it means. One side will argue this way and the other side will argue that way. In the end, the judge or jury must weight the evidence and the interpretation of the evidence and decide which side has more weight and render a judgement.

Not always, you can start out with the intention of writing a certain kind of song and then end up somewhere else. Happens often. Not the exception. Anyways, being an exception is important only in that you have to concede that this universe might be the exception as well. Check mate, brah.

You might want to hold up on that checkmate thingee. Sure, you started out to write a certain kind of a song and ended up writing a different kind of song. Ok, great. It was still a song though, right? You didn't start out to write a song and end up making a cell phone, right? Or a turkey dinner, right? At the end of the day you still wrote a song. You set out to write a song and you ended up writing a song. If I start out trying to create a being that knows and creates with 5 limbs for locomotion and end up with a being that knows and creates with 4 limbs for locomotion, I still ended up creating a being that knows and creates. It doesn't really matter if he has 5 limbs or 4 limbs. As it turns out nature has decided 4 limbs is the optimal number of limbs for locomotion.

I guess I really can't answer this one because I don't know how many steps it takes to build a cell phone vs a turkey dinner. But you're implying that either you know, or it's irrelevant. (a cell phone can be made in Chine at a plant in probably 5 minutes, a turkey dinner takes

Well, before a cell phone can be built, electricity must be discovered, radio waves must be discovered, the telephone must be invented, manufacturing technology must be developed, computer chips must be invented and millions of lines of complex software code must be written. To make a turkey dinner all you need is fire, a turkey and some vegetables.

Again, not always. If I'm drawing a circle, it's one step. And some things that require steps, like writing a song, can be done with the steps in different orders, like, you can write the lyrics before or after the music...

Sure, but what you have just described are still steps. But you could take it one step further, right? Before you could even write that song, you needed to learn how to learn language (i.e. how to speak), you needed to learn music (i.e. how to sing) you needed to learn how to play an instrument, etc. And if we go back to the cell phone and the turkey dinner analog the same thing applies. We see that not only are there steps to assembling each, but that a whole new set of different technologies must first be developed before you can even begin assembly steps. It is just that the number, the magnitude and the complexity is different for each (i.e. turkey dinner vs a cell phone), right?

All creation would require intelligence, I presume. But maybe not? A tomato plant makes a tomato, is it intelligent?

All naturally created things are part of creation. Ultimately each of us must decide for our self if these naturally created things were the product of an intelligent being (i.e. a being that knows and creates). What we are doing here is using our experiences as beings that know and create as a proxy. In the case of the tomato plant, you - a being that knows and creates - would have to had the intention of planting, tending and harvesting tomatoes to produce tomatoes. You would have had to use steps to do it and it would have required intelligence to do so.

No (except for drawing a circle, lol)

Maybe, but not necessarily.

Not always, ex: people paint pictures that nobody knows what they mean.

Ok, given the new information I just gave you about the enabling technologies required to create a cell phone, can you at least tell me if you believe that creating a cell requires more steps and intelligence to create than it does to create a turkey dinner?

Can you tell me what the purpose of a cell phone is?

 

[ding]

I never said that, in fact, didn't I say that there's evidence for re-incarnation?

Ok, my bad, you are open to the possiblity that there is a next world but in your world view there is no room for a Creator. Is that a fair assessment? Also, there is no final judgement, right? In other words, whatever you do here has no consequences on being re-incarnated. Did I capture this correctly?

No, I said that it's evidence of something, but being evidence of a creator has not been proven. It could be something completely different, like that universes are self-propagating into multi-verses and have no need for a creator god. Or even something else.
Maybe even the exception to your rule.

Ok, Fair enough. What you are saying here is that it is evidence, but that the determination of what it means must still be made. I agree. In any trial or dispute there are usually at least two sides who don't agree. They usually discuss the exact same evidence and each provide expert testimony as to what it means. One side will argue this way and the other side will argue that way. In the end, the judge or jury must weight the evidence and the interpretation of the evidence and decide which side has more weight and render a judgement. Each of us must decide for ourselves what the evidence means. I could not agree more. We have just reached a very important milestone.