The Case For Aid to Catholic Schools

[PoliticalChic]

The majority of school-age children in private school attend parochial schools. Questions about the Constitutionality of government aid to parochial schools involve the Church-State intersection, and when the priority changed from ‘equity’ to the “child-benefit theory,” centering on achievement, the situation had to be revisited.

Many Catholic schools were forced to close after the peak reached in the 1960’s:

a. Many Catholic families joined the middle-class exodus from blighted communities, and few such schools were fund in the suburbs. “…middle-class Irish and Italian families started moving to the suburbs, leaving urban Catholic schools to cater to a majority of lower-income blacks and Hispanics.” Catholic Schools: How to Fix Parochial Schools' Decline - TIME

b. Americans were migrating from the Northeast to western and southern states, which had no history of Catholic education.

c. The liberalization of the Church after Vatican II dimmed the sense of obligation to educate their children in parochial school. And resulted in fewer entering religious vocations resulted in higher tuition. “In 1950, 90% of the teachers in Catholic schools came from religious orders; by 1967, the figure was 58%; today, it is 4%. This shift has meant that schools have had to raise tuition in order to pay more lay teachers. “Catholic Schools: How to Fix Parochial Schools' Decline - TIME

d. The general revolt against authority in the culture begged the question of sending children to the most authoritarian and dogmatic educational milieu.
In 1981, James Coleman published the first significant finding that Catholic schools were more effective at education. (James S. Coleman, "Public Schools, Private Schools, and the Public Interest," The Public Interest No. 64 (Summer 1981).

Factors for and against:

e. Many families favored the safety, discipline, and attention to character development in addition to academics, but would have to continue paying public school property taxes in addition to tuition.

f. Teacher unions opposed any aid to schools that were not unionized.

g. Urban parochial schools were serving a growing share of disadvantaged and frequently non-Catholic youngsters. In a study published in 1990, for example, the Rand Corporation found that, of the Catholic school students in these Catholic high schools in New York City, 75 to 90 percent were black or Hispanic. And the report highlighted:

i. Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction;
ii. The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;
iii. The Catholic school students achieved an average combined SAT score of 803, while the public school students' average combined SAT score was 642;
iv. 60 percent of the Catholic school black students scored above the national average for black students on the SAT, and over 70 percent of public school black students scored below the same national average.
 More recent studies confirm these observations. Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children

Under the "child-benefit theory," government aid has been provided to the students of parochial schools, rather than to the schools themselves; by means of this compromise, the constitutional provision against aid to religious institutions is circumvented. In a number of cases, however, the U.S. Supreme Court has decided against state laws providing such aid to parochial schools, claiming that they violate the principle of separation between church and state. parochial school: Definition from Answers.com

 

[chanel]

TRENTON — The man once described by teachers’ union leaders as “the antithesis of everything we hold sacred about public education” was chosen to serve as state education commissioner by Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie on Wednesday.
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Mel Evans/Associated Press

Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie, left, announcing the nomination of Bret D. Schundler to serve as New Jersey’s education commissioner. Mr. Schundler ran for governor twice.
Related
Times Topics: Christopher J. Christie | Bret D. Schundler

The nomination of Bret D. Schundler to the post underscored the governor’s determination to press ahead with his push for school vouchers, more charter schools and merit pay for teachers.

I am hopeful this will happen in NJ. Our only Catholic High School is scheduled to close. Nearly every municipality in our county issued a resolution opposing the move. The mayors understand that without school choice, young families will choose to live elsewhere. Even those who have never considered Catholic school, still would like that option in the event that their children need an alternative for ANY reason. Go Schundler!

 

[Skull Pilot]

School vouchers make sense. Why should a parent be forced to support a school his child does not attend?

That said parents that home school should get the same tax credit.

Another interesting point of discussion is how much should people with no children pay in tax dollars to support public schools. Certainly it should be something because we all benefit from an educated public ( we can argue if what the government does is education in another thread) but it should certainly be less than people with children pay. The more children people have the more they should pay should obviously as they are getting more from the system.

 

[uscitizen]

TRENTON — The man once described by teachers’ union leaders as “the antithesis of everything we hold sacred about public education” was chosen to serve as state education commissioner by Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie on Wednesday.
Skip to next paragraph
Enlarge This Image
Mel Evans/Associated Press

Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie, left, announcing the nomination of Bret D. Schundler to serve as New Jersey’s education commissioner. Mr. Schundler ran for governor twice.
Related
Times Topics: Christopher J. Christie | Bret D. Schundler

The nomination of Bret D. Schundler to the post underscored the governor’s determination to press ahead with his push for school vouchers, more charter schools and merit pay for teachers.

I am hopeful this will happen in NJ. Our only Catholic High School is scheduled to close. Nearly every municipality in our county issued a resolution opposing the move. The mayors understand that without school choice, young families will choose to live elsewhere. Even those who have never considered Catholic school, still would like that option in the event that their children need an alternative for ANY reason. Go Schundler!

Well apparently the catholic school is closing because of lack of demand....

 

[uscitizen]

School vouchers make sense. Why should a parent be forced to support a school his child does not attend?

That said parents that home school should get the same tax credit.

Another interesting point of discussion is how much should people with no children pay in tax dollars to support public schools. Certainly it should be something because we all benefit from an educated public ( we can argue if what the government does is education in another thread) but it should certainly be less than people with children pay. The more children people have the more they should pay should obviously as they are getting more from the system.

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

 

[Skull Pilot]

School vouchers make sense. Why should a parent be forced to support a school his child does not attend?

That said parents that home school should get the same tax credit.

Another interesting point of discussion is how much should people with no children pay in tax dollars to support public schools. Certainly it should be something because we all benefit from an educated public ( we can argue if what the government does is education in another thread) but it should certainly be less than people with children pay. The more children people have the more they should pay should obviously as they are getting more from the system.

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

 

[uscitizen]

School vouchers make sense. Why should a parent be forced to support a school his child does not attend?

That said parents that home school should get the same tax credit.

Another interesting point of discussion is how much should people with no children pay in tax dollars to support public schools. Certainly it should be something because we all benefit from an educated public ( we can argue if what the government does is education in another thread) but it should certainly be less than people with children pay. The more children people have the more they should pay should obviously as they are getting more from the system.

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

But I thought people should pay their "fair share".

Certainly the parents with a gaggle of kids fair share of school costs are much higher than yours.

And we should probably use the words "equitable" and "proportional" instead of fair.

 

[Annie]

School vouchers make sense. Why should a parent be forced to support a school his child does not attend?

That said parents that home school should get the same tax credit.

Another interesting point of discussion is how much should people with no children pay in tax dollars to support public schools. Certainly it should be something because we all benefit from an educated public ( we can argue if what the government does is education in another thread) but it should certainly be less than people with children pay. The more children people have the more they should pay should obviously as they are getting more from the system.

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

Only if you care about your property values. The more successful your local public schools, the more your home is worth.

 

[uscitizen]

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

But I thought people should pay their "fair share".

Certainly the parents with a gaggle of kids fair share of school costs are much higher than yours.

And we should probably use the words "equitable" and "proportional" instead of fair.

Yes should. And their sense of personal responsibility should make them do it voluntarially.
Should...
Should is not reality though.
Relality and politics do not mix well.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

But I thought people should pay their "fair share".

Certainly the parents with a gaggle of kids fair share of school costs are much higher than yours.

And we should probably use the words "equitable" and "proportional" instead of fair.

Yes should. And their sense of personal responsibility should make them do it voluntarially.
Should...
Should is not reality though.
Relality and politics do not mix well.

Sad but True


[youtube]xCF19cBWb0I[/youtube]

 

[chanel]

TRENTON — The man once described by teachers’ union leaders as “the antithesis of everything we hold sacred about public education” was chosen to serve as state education commissioner by Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie on Wednesday.
Skip to next paragraph
Enlarge This Image
Mel Evans/Associated Press

Governor-elect Christopher J. Christie, left, announcing the nomination of Bret D. Schundler to serve as New Jersey’s education commissioner. Mr. Schundler ran for governor twice.
Related
Times Topics: Christopher J. Christie | Bret D. Schundler

The nomination of Bret D. Schundler to the post underscored the governor’s determination to press ahead with his push for school vouchers, more charter schools and merit pay for teachers.

I am hopeful this will happen in NJ. Our only Catholic High School is scheduled to close. Nearly every municipality in our county issued a resolution opposing the move. The mayors understand that without school choice, young families will choose to live elsewhere. Even those who have never considered Catholic school, still would like that option in the event that their children need an alternative for ANY reason. Go Schundler!

Well apparently the catholic school is closing because of lack of demand....

Yes. Enrollment is down in all our area schools - and the success of a local Technical High School (a publicly funded "private school" ) has been creating a "brain drain". But it's a catch 22. They need to raise tuition to pay the bills, but there is only so much people can afford to pay.

It costs approx. $12,000 a year for public school. A $3000 voucher to a Catholic or other private school is still a savings to the taxpayer.

Catholic colleges are starting to step up and bail out some of the high schools. Apparently enrollment is not that much of an issue in higher ed.

Oh and NJ has school tax breaks for seniors. Not sure how much, but it helps.

 

[uscitizen]

I have been thinking of becoming a Donovan Scholor.

 

[California Girl]

I am retired and single and paid well over 3k in school tax last year.

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

I went to a Catholic School (thanks Mom, Dad and God). I learned that one early on. Apparently, according to the Nuns, ya work hard and pray hard and if you're lucky, you get blessed. And if you get blessed, you be thankful and pay it back. Worked for me.

 

[uscitizen]

And the couple with 6 kids paid less because of all the deductions they get for having all those rug rats.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

No it is not, and the first thing one needs to learn is life is not fair.

I went to a Catholic School (thanks Mom, Dad and God). I learned that one early on. Apparently, according to the Nuns, ya work hard and pray hard and if you're lucky, you get blessed. And if you get blessed, you be thankful and pay it back. Worked for me.

so you became a nun?

 

[Kalam]

Has this issue not already been decided?

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

 

[jillian]

We all know how enthused the people on this thread who hate the separation of church and state would be if we were talking about state-funded muslim schools.

 

[Kalam]

We all know how enthused the people on this thread who hate the separation of church and state would be if we were talking about state-funded muslim schools.

One obvious consequence of the integration of church and state is that the state gains free license to interfere in religious issues as it sees fit. You'd think that this would occur to them, especially since most of them have plenty to say about the "evils" of state interference.

 

[Toronado3800]

PC, another fine well thought out post.

. Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction;
ii. The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;
iii. The Catholic school students achieved an average combined SAT score of 803, while the public school students' average combined SAT score was 642;
iv. 60 percent of the Catholic school black students scored above the national average for black students on the SAT, and over 70 percent of public school black students scored below the same national average.
 More recent studies confirm these observations. Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children

I am mostly a product of "affordable" Catholic schools which were inferior to public schools in the area so I'll poke at this point.
1. Catholic Schools by and large only take children who have parents who care enough about education to pay extra for the schooling.
2. Thanks to the cost Catholic Schools don't get a proportionally correct number of kids of Highschool Dropouts as public schools.
3. Catholic Schools are able to pick and choose their students. One was able to kick my slacking self out before I ruined their graduating class's GPA or whatever.

My biggest reason for resenting private schools is it creates class separation from an early age. My parents were able to isolate me from the have nots and/or minorities in our community.

IF 500 kids of parents who cared enough to spend a few thousand dollars a year on private education were suddenly dumped on the local public schools the public schools would have been better off.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, another fine well thought out post.

. Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction;
ii. The Catholic high schools graduated 95 percent of their students each year, while the public schools graduated slightly more 50 percent of their senior class;
iii. The Catholic school students achieved an average combined SAT score of 803, while the public school students' average combined SAT score was 642;
iv. 60 percent of the Catholic school black students scored above the national average for black students on the SAT, and over 70 percent of public school black students scored below the same national average.
 More recent studies confirm these observations. Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-City Children

I am mostly a product of "affordable" Catholic schools which were inferior to public schools in the area so I'll poke at this point.
1. Catholic Schools by and large only take children who have parents who care enough about education to pay extra for the schooling.
2. Thanks to the cost Catholic Schools don't get a proportionally correct number of kids of Highschool Dropouts as public schools.
3. Catholic Schools are able to pick and choose their students. One was able to kick my slacking self out before I ruined their graduating class's GPA or whatever.

My biggest reason for resenting private schools is it creates class separation from an early age. My parents were able to isolate me from the have nots and/or minorities in our community.

IF 500 kids of parents who cared enough to spend a few thousand dollars a year on private education were suddenly dumped on the local public schools the public schools would have been better off.

Thank you, and I understand exactly the point that you are making, but

"My biggest reason for resenting private schools is it creates class separation from an early age. My parents were able to isolate me from the have nots and/or minorities in our community."
clearly that is not the case in the NYC Catholic schools, as reported by the Rand study.


"...parents who care enough ..." How about we assume that the parents to whom you refer care, but don't have the skills to turn out students such as yourself. Why penalize the other students, by depriving them of a learning situation.

Bettter would be to corral the other students is a school designed to teach exactly those kinds of children. In NYC teachers can earn 100K plus benefits plus proportional pay for summer schools and after schools...

With that pay scale, surely we can find a specialized staff to teach those who need the extra time and services. And let the learners learn.


"...pick and choose ..." is exactly the lesson that those who currently aren't willing to learn would learn. They would see the benefit of being back with the learners, and, I believe that human nature would cure the problem- to a degree. A greater degree than it is cure currently.

The reason for the OP, what starting me thinking of the the importance of private schools, and specifically Catholic schools which represent the largest proportion of same, is that one of the books that I am reading, 'Troublemaker,' by Chester E. Finn, Jr., president of the Fordham Foundation and a former assistant secretary of education, makes the argument that the big difference between the '70's, wherein the impetus was 'equity' and 'social justice,' and the 80's, where the emphasis became student achievement and school performance.

Unfortunately, the education establishment is some 30 years behind the times, and is still stuck in the kind of thinking that- at best- has a foot in both camps.

The 60's take-it-to-the streets mentality, 'make sure everybody is packed together, no matter whether any learning takes place' is not the best course for the country.

Now, there are those who, like the jillian post above, would rather create some sort of straw man than look for solutions that work. Notice that I anticipated the Constitutional question in the OP.

And note that the Catholic schools are educating largely non-Catholic students.

If tossing out impediments is the choice, let's do it! Remember, our system allows re-admission at just about any age.

Any school system that produces happy, informed, educated civically aware students should be given the opportunity, and if that means finding a way to shift funds from systems that don't work to the Catholic schools that do, so be it.

In summary, I would rather the education community empasize achievement than the empty phrase 'social justice.'