The 2017 tax reform from an economic point of view

[task0778]

I disagree. It's not our job as tax payers to support one over the other, big versus small. If we have a low regulation low tax environment there's no way the top 1% can get a hold of anything they don't compete for. There will always be a smaller faster more innovative option. Just keep the taxes and regulations down and things will get better. There's no reason to use tax dollars to help either one.

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

i understand what you are saying and agree with your point about lower cost for consumer goods. I also, regrettably, shop at Walmart at times.i want things to be as cheap as possible like I think most people do when looking at it from a consumers perspective. But I’m looking at the big picture and identifying issues with our economic system and how they will effect us in the future. I get it. You don’t have a lot of money and want easy access to cheap goods, the Walmarts provide that so it’s good for you. Thats understandable but it is also short term thinking. I’m trying to analysis the big picture for the long term. We are in a real mess

Short term thinking is pretty much the position that a whole lot of people are in these days, and have been since the recession. The idea that we should pay more for the same thing so we can save the world from Walmart just isn't going to fly, it's just not. There is no way in hell that I and many others will voluntarily lower our standard of living to fix the big picture, it just ain't going to happen. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're trying to say, but whatever ideas you have to address certain issues with our economy are going to have to work without sacrificing our purchasing power.

 

[Foxfyre]

I wish I could have been blessed with an economics class or two taught by Walter E. Williams PhD, long time tenured profession of economics at George Mason University, best selling author, syndicated columnist, and occasional guest talk show host or television commentator.

Dr, Williams, whether on paper, on the radio/TV and I imagine in the classroom, doesn't teach via mind numbing charts, graphs, pointy headed academic language, or high sounding terms used by people who want others to admire them for their superior intellect. He uses familiar imagery, illustrations, logic, reason to drill home important lessons that actually teach economics as a practical subject instead of an academic exercise.

Today I ran across one of my favorite columns of his that has most often been entitled "An Economic Miracle."

He used an amazing illustration of an Adam Smith principle by explaining how no person, group of people, or government would have the insight, knowledge, or ability to stock the average American super market with 10,000+ different items at a price people can afford to buy. It is rather millions of people looking to their own interests that create that miracle. No government would likely have the resources to put a single product on the shelf at the grocery store.

He closed the column with this provocative observation:

If you have doubts about Adam Smith's prediction, ask yourself which areas of our lives are we the most satisfied and those with most complaints. Would they be profit motivated arenas such supermarkets, video or clothing stores, or be nonprofit motivated government-operated arenas such as public schools, postal delivery or motor vehicle registration? By the way, how many of you would be in favor of Congress running our supermarkets?​

Economic Miracle, by Walter E.Williams

The lesson would be very good for the American people to consider when evaluating the merits of the tax reform just passed by Congress and signed into law by the President. There is much criticism of the lion's share of tax relief going to business and industry or as some characterize it: 'the wealthy.' But is that something to criticize? Or commend?

As Dr. Williams would probably say (and may already have), overall, what benefits the people the most? Encouraging a profit motive in commerce and industry? Or the government directing money/resources/opportunity to those demographics that the government decides should have it?

The poll is multiple choice and you can change your answer should you rethink your initial choices

If you like Williams you'll probably like Friedman as well.

Friedman has very often been my go to guy on economic issues.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

You're harping on the 'free market' while advocating heavily regulated trade deals? lol

You are right about what debt is and the effects of default. My points was that one is a closed system and the other is an open system so how you manage them requires detailed understanding and different priorities.

To your question. With the path I see our economy headed towards I’d say distribution of wealth is a tremendous concern. Like I said in my original post. The top 1% is buying everything and taking ownership of the market. It will get to a point where it is not free anymore. So from a political standpoint I’d like to see less propping up of big corporations and more propping up of the middle class. Instead of giving billions to corporations to hire people, focus on education and middle class tax cuts and grants to help grow small business and local owned businesses. Make it a priority to increase home ownership. Every middle class family that works hard should be able to own a Home and/or start a business. This is not obtainable in many parts of our country. I’d like to see the focus go there.

I disagree. It's not our job as tax payers to support one over the other, big versus small. If we have a low regulation low tax environment there's no way the top 1% can get a hold of anything they don't compete for. There will always be a smaller faster more innovative option. Just keep the taxes and regulations down and things will get better. There's no reason to use tax dollars to help either one.

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

As I previously posted (in this thread I think but I am not sure), President Trump got about 1/4th of what he actually wanted in this tax bill. I am sure he is looking at it as a start. America is a great nation that true patriots appreciate for all the right reasons, but it has been in decline for some time now. He was elected for his vision and the objectives/goals he saw as necessary for America to regain its former greatness.

I am sure that he is not looking at the just passed tax bill as the whole deal. I think he looks at it as just the beginning of true and complete reform that is greatly needed in order to benefit all the people.

The haters criticize it because it is only a partial fix and won't benefit this person or that person and/or it benefits 'the rich'. The patriots see it as opportunity to move forward and continue to improve.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

Ummm...no

The speculation is that China's share of global output adjusted for purchasing power parity will surpass that of the United States in 2018 not that the size of Chinas Economy will surpass that of the United States in 2018, the speculation on that prospect happening is sometime after 2030.

That depends on who you ask, and I honestly don't have any means to determine that so I am as dependent on what others write/say just like most others here.

"BusinessInsider" says in 11 years which would put it around 2028.

This article in Forbes says 2018.
China's Economy Will Overtake The U.S. In 2018

Who do you believe? I personally think economists, like weather forecasters, at best can make educated long range estimates, but I do believe we can safely say that China's economy is expanding at a much faster rate than ours and, given their far less oppressive regulation and taxation policies on commerce and industry, they no doubt will surpass us unless we rethink how we do things and stop clinging to the status quo.

 

[Slade3200]

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

i understand what you are saying and agree with your point about lower cost for consumer goods. I also, regrettably, shop at Walmart at times.i want things to be as cheap as possible like I think most people do when looking at it from a consumers perspective. But I’m looking at the big picture and identifying issues with our economic system and how they will effect us in the future. I get it. You don’t have a lot of money and want easy access to cheap goods, the Walmarts provide that so it’s good for you. Thats understandable but it is also short term thinking. I’m trying to analysis the big picture for the long term. We are in a real mess

Short term thinking is pretty much the position that a whole lot of people are in these days, and have been since the recession. The idea that we should pay more for the same thing so we can save the world from Walmart just isn't going to fly, it's just not. There is no way in hell that I and many others will voluntarily lower our standard of living to fix the big picture, it just ain't going to happen. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're trying to say, but whatever ideas you have to address certain issues with our economy are going to have to work without sacrificing our purchasing power.

Just because most people think short term and seek instant gratification that doesn’t mean it is the smart way to do things. I think the needs of those people definatley need to be considered but if we want to grow a strong, stable, and prosperous society with a healthy economy then we need to start having an honest conversation about what’s happening and what kind of projected path we are on. Otherwise we could find us up shit creek without a paddle 20 years from now

 

[BluesLegend]

Debt is debt regardless of whether it is created by an individual, a family, a mom and pop store, a mega corporation, or a country. Whenever debt exceeds the net worth/ability to repay of any one of these, that entity whether individual or country is bankrupt whether or not he/she/it officially declares bankruptcy.

I am quite sure the President understands that concept very well. And I am also sure that he knows all too well that debt becomes toxic only in a situation or environment in which it defaults or is in imminent danger of default. In an economy in which both business and consumer confidence is high, unless there is some irresponsible action or dereliction of duty of the government as we had in the 2008 housing bubble crash, the risk of bankruptcy is far less likely. Individual people just living their lives do not create a prosperous and enduring economy. Those who put their resources at risk by engaging in commerce and industry do.

A tax policy that encourages reasonable risk taking, competition, business growth, expansion, creation is a very good tax policy.

Oh no. Taking on personal debt is very very different than the debt of a sovereign nation in control of its own currency. If you buy a million dollars worth of treasury bonds for your 401k the debt clicker ticks up by a million dollars. You then gain interest on that investment and it gets paid back to you usually to help with retirement. New money is created by the act of borrowing from banks. There are so many elements involved and they have a different purpose, which is To run a national economy, not simply consume and acquire like we run our personal lives. It is a completely different beast and anybody that equalizes the two is very much not understanding the situation. Please do some more research on the differences between personal debt and the national debt.

I did not say that the structure of national and personal debt are the same. I said that the basic definition is the same. Debt is occurred with one person or entity owe something to the other. And by the very definition of debt means that should the debtor default on that debt, somebody else will be the poorer for it. If there is enough default, the family prosperity will collapse. If there is aenough default, a country's economy will collapse. Same principle. Same results regardless of how they are created and/or structured.

But please, returning to the thread topic, what contributes most to the economic benefit of the people? Certainly a good credit rating can be a factor. That probably should have been included in the poll if we were allowed more options.

You are right about what debt is and the effects of default. My points was that one is a closed system and the other is an open system so how you manage them requires detailed understanding and different priorities.

To your question. With the path I see our economy headed towards I’d say distribution of wealth is a tremendous concern. Like I said in my original post. The top 1% is buying everything and taking ownership of the market. It will get to a point where it is not free anymore. So from a political standpoint I’d like to see less propping up of big corporations and more propping up of the middle class. Instead of giving billions to corporations to hire people, focus on education and middle class tax cuts and grants to help grow small business and local owned businesses. Make it a priority to increase home ownership. Every middle class family that works hard should be able to own a Home and/or start a business. This is not obtainable in many parts of our country. I’d like to see the focus go there.

But consider this. Excessive taxation and regulation and mandates makes it much more difficult for the little guy to complete with the with multi-state, multi-national corporations. General Electric, for instance, pays little or no taxes in the USA because they keep their losing businesses here to use for tax writeoffs while they make their big money overseas where it is much more profitable for them to do business. They also rathole their considerable capital overseas because it is so costly to bring it home and put it to work here.They actually welcome the mandates and regulations that they can and do afford anyway, because they know the little guys can't afford that which removes most of the chance the little guys will be much competition for them.

The little guys put so much at risk in a highly taxed, highly regulated system in which the economy is really sluggish that they choose not to risk. They sideline much of their working and venture capital and, even if they continue to operate, they haven't taken the considerable risk of losing what they have by expanding or growing or starting up new ventures. So we have had almost as much money sidelined here in the states as is parked off shore to avoid the tax man and the regulators.

The recently passed tax bill is intended to be an important first step to fix that situation. The Administration is rolling back unnecessary regulations, imposing no new ones, and has made our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the developed world. Since business cannot react immediately, it will be some months before we can assess how much incentive it will put out there to benefit us all. Meanwhile, everybody could do America a huge favor by hoping for good results instead of continuing to poison the atmosphere and tear it down.

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

 

[Slade3200]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

You're harping on the 'free market' while advocating heavily regulated trade deals? lol

I disagree. It's not our job as tax payers to support one over the other, big versus small. If we have a low regulation low tax environment there's no way the top 1% can get a hold of anything they don't compete for. There will always be a smaller faster more innovative option. Just keep the taxes and regulations down and things will get better. There's no reason to use tax dollars to help either one.

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

As I previously posted (in this thread I think but I am not sure), President Trump got about 1/4th of what he actually wanted in this tax bill. I am sure he is looking at it as a start. America is a great nation that true patriots appreciate for all the right reasons, but it has been in decline for some time now. He was elected for his vision and the objectives/goals he saw as necessary for America to regain its former greatness.

I am sure that he is not looking at the just passed tax bill as the whole deal. I think he looks at it as just the beginning of true and complete reform that is greatly needed in order to benefit all the people.

The haters criticize it because it is only a partial fix and won't benefit this person or that person and/or it benefits 'the rich'. The patriots see it as opportunity to move forward and continue to improve.

Well that’s a very friendly and optimistic view. But if we are oooking objectively at the plan I think we see a very clear effort to put billions of dollars back in the accounts of corporations. That is clear and that is a supported position from many people as they believe it will create jobs and grow wages. But let’s be honest about it. And let’s be honest that what the bill does runs in contrast to how it is being presented by Trump.

He says it’s the biggest tax cut in American history, not true, Reagan took the tax rate from 70% to 28%. He also says it is a bill centered around the middle class. Again, not true. It gave $1000-$2000 a year to middle class families in some areas and a break even in other areas while Millions go into the accounts of top earners and corporations.

I actually like some of what Trump campaigns for, but I’m not seeing it translated. He is proving, to me, to be more of a talker than a doer who displays a strong understanding of details. He is a salesman

 

[Foxfyre]

I wish I could have been blessed with an economics class or two taught by Walter E. Williams PhD, long time tenured profession of economics at George Mason University, best selling author, syndicated columnist, and occasional guest talk show host or television commentator.

Dr, Williams, whether on paper, on the radio/TV and I imagine in the classroom, doesn't teach via mind numbing charts, graphs, pointy headed academic language, or high sounding terms used by people who want others to admire them for their superior intellect. He uses familiar imagery, illustrations, logic, reason to drill home important lessons that actually teach economics as a practical subject instead of an academic exercise.

Today I ran across one of my favorite columns of his that has most often been entitled "An Economic Miracle."

He used an amazing illustration of an Adam Smith principle by explaining how no person, group of people, or government would have the insight, knowledge, or ability to stock the average American super market with 10,000+ different items at a price people can afford to buy. It is rather millions of people looking to their own interests that create that miracle. No government would likely have the resources to put a single product on the shelf at the grocery store.

He closed the column with this provocative observation:

If you have doubts about Adam Smith's prediction, ask yourself which areas of our lives are we the most satisfied and those with most complaints. Would they be profit motivated arenas such supermarkets, video or clothing stores, or be nonprofit motivated government-operated arenas such as public schools, postal delivery or motor vehicle registration? By the way, how many of you would be in favor of Congress running our supermarkets?​

Economic Miracle, by Walter E.Williams

The lesson would be very good for the American people to consider when evaluating the merits of the tax reform just passed by Congress and signed into law by the President. There is much criticism of the lion's share of tax relief going to business and industry or as some characterize it: 'the wealthy.' But is that something to criticize? Or commend?

As Dr. Williams would probably say (and may already have), overall, what benefits the people the most? Encouraging a profit motive in commerce and industry? Or the government directing money/resources/opportunity to those demographics that the government decides should have it?

The poll is multiple choice and you can change your answer should you rethink your initial choices

The best deals I get as a consumer are from my non-profit credit union and my non-profit electric co-op.

And here you have the difference between government controlled entities and social contract in which people band together to share costs and benefits from a service or utility for the benefit of all and in a way become shareholders/owners of whatever it is. It is the same with volunteer fire departments, shared rural water systems, neighborhood homeowner's associations, etc. It is the way to benefit all rather than be at the mercy of the greedy and unscrupulous monopoly: think the Savings and Loan versus Potter in "It's a Wonderful Life".

The only good government is one created as social contract so that the people govern themselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

You're harping on the 'free market' while advocating heavily regulated trade deals? lol

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

As I previously posted (in this thread I think but I am not sure), President Trump got about 1/4th of what he actually wanted in this tax bill. I am sure he is looking at it as a start. America is a great nation that true patriots appreciate for all the right reasons, but it has been in decline for some time now. He was elected for his vision and the objectives/goals he saw as necessary for America to regain its former greatness.

I am sure that he is not looking at the just passed tax bill as the whole deal. I think he looks at it as just the beginning of true and complete reform that is greatly needed in order to benefit all the people.

The haters criticize it because it is only a partial fix and won't benefit this person or that person and/or it benefits 'the rich'. The patriots see it as opportunity to move forward and continue to improve.

Well that’s a very friendly and optimistic view. But if we are oooking objectively at the plan I think we see a very clear effort to put billions of dollars back in the accounts of corporations. That is clear and that is a supported position from many people as they believe it will create jobs and grow wages. But let’s be honest about it. And let’s be honest that what the bill does runs in contrast to how it is being presented by Trump.

He says it’s the biggest tax cut in American history, not true, Reagan took the tax rate from 70% to 28%. He also says it is a bill centered around the middle class. Again, not true. It gave $1000-$2000 a year to middle class families in some areas and a break even in other areas while Millions go into the accounts of top earners and corporations.

But you are not considering the difference between individual income tax and corporate tax, investment tax, inheritance tax plus the deductions and exemptions included in tax policy. Look at it from that perspective and you will see that the President is not mischaracterizing it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Take taxation out of it and just look at the economic situation. The big dogs are buying everything. Yeah we will get the occasional “Facebook” or innovative small business that goes big. But local Mom and pop opperations are getting swallowed up and the comet ion becomes a pee wee team vs a NFL team. That’s only going to lead to an even more lopsided society than we already have.

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

i understand what you are saying and agree with your point about lower cost for consumer goods. I also, regrettably, shop at Walmart at times.i want things to be as cheap as possible like I think most people do when looking at it from a consumers perspective. But I’m looking at the big picture and identifying issues with our economic system and how they will effect us in the future. I get it. You don’t have a lot of money and want easy access to cheap goods, the Walmarts provide that so it’s good for you. Thats understandable but it is also short term thinking. I’m trying to analysis the big picture for the long term. We are in a real mess

Short term thinking is pretty much the position that a whole lot of people are in these days, and have been since the recession. The idea that we should pay more for the same thing so we can save the world from Walmart just isn't going to fly, it's just not. There is no way in hell that I and many others will voluntarily lower our standard of living to fix the big picture, it just ain't going to happen. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're trying to say, but whatever ideas you have to address certain issues with our economy are going to have to work without sacrificing our purchasing power.

Relieve the little guy of the more restrictive provisions of minimum wage, benefits, and other included in wage/hour laws as well as the crushing paperwork and requirements resulting from massive over regulation, and the little guy is in a much better position to compete with Walmart. Am I going to brave the morass of the Walmart parking lot, difficulty in finding customer service, or walking all over the store hunting the item(s) I need if I can zip into the local mom and pop store and pick up the same item(s) at a competitive price? The little guys will probably never compete with the big box stores in large scale purchases, but there is no reason the little guy should not be able to compete at all.

We have a locally owned electronic and appliance store here in Albuquerque that is so efficiently managed and provides such outstanding customer service that it competes quite well with Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. It can be done and the new tax bill will help make the smaller home owned stores much more viable.

 

[Slade3200]

Oh no. Taking on personal debt is very very different than the debt of a sovereign nation in control of its own currency. If you buy a million dollars worth of treasury bonds for your 401k the debt clicker ticks up by a million dollars. You then gain interest on that investment and it gets paid back to you usually to help with retirement. New money is created by the act of borrowing from banks. There are so many elements involved and they have a different purpose, which is To run a national economy, not simply consume and acquire like we run our personal lives. It is a completely different beast and anybody that equalizes the two is very much not understanding the situation. Please do some more research on the differences between personal debt and the national debt.

I did not say that the structure of national and personal debt are the same. I said that the basic definition is the same. Debt is occurred with one person or entity owe something to the other. And by the very definition of debt means that should the debtor default on that debt, somebody else will be the poorer for it. If there is enough default, the family prosperity will collapse. If there is aenough default, a country's economy will collapse. Same principle. Same results regardless of how they are created and/or structured.

But please, returning to the thread topic, what contributes most to the economic benefit of the people? Certainly a good credit rating can be a factor. That probably should have been included in the poll if we were allowed more options.

You are right about what debt is and the effects of default. My points was that one is a closed system and the other is an open system so how you manage them requires detailed understanding and different priorities.

To your question. With the path I see our economy headed towards I’d say distribution of wealth is a tremendous concern. Like I said in my original post. The top 1% is buying everything and taking ownership of the market. It will get to a point where it is not free anymore. So from a political standpoint I’d like to see less propping up of big corporations and more propping up of the middle class. Instead of giving billions to corporations to hire people, focus on education and middle class tax cuts and grants to help grow small business and local owned businesses. Make it a priority to increase home ownership. Every middle class family that works hard should be able to own a Home and/or start a business. This is not obtainable in many parts of our country. I’d like to see the focus go there.

But consider this. Excessive taxation and regulation and mandates makes it much more difficult for the little guy to complete with the with multi-state, multi-national corporations. General Electric, for instance, pays little or no taxes in the USA because they keep their losing businesses here to use for tax writeoffs while they make their big money overseas where it is much more profitable for them to do business. They also rathole their considerable capital overseas because it is so costly to bring it home and put it to work here.They actually welcome the mandates and regulations that they can and do afford anyway, because they know the little guys can't afford that which removes most of the chance the little guys will be much competition for them.

The little guys put so much at risk in a highly taxed, highly regulated system in which the economy is really sluggish that they choose not to risk. They sideline much of their working and venture capital and, even if they continue to operate, they haven't taken the considerable risk of losing what they have by expanding or growing or starting up new ventures. So we have had almost as much money sidelined here in the states as is parked off shore to avoid the tax man and the regulators.

The recently passed tax bill is intended to be an important first step to fix that situation. The Administration is rolling back unnecessary regulations, imposing no new ones, and has made our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the developed world. Since business cannot react immediately, it will be some months before we can assess how much incentive it will put out there to benefit us all. Meanwhile, everybody could do America a huge favor by hoping for good results instead of continuing to poison the atmosphere and tear it down.

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

 

[Slade3200]

It has been widely speculated that China's economy will pass the USA in 2018 and the USA will lose it's designation as the world's biggest/strongest economy. Good thing? Bad thing?

It will be interesting to see if the recently passed tax bill plus renegotiated trade deals will keep us at #1. I am pretty sure that is the President's hope for the new year.

You're harping on the 'free market' while advocating heavily regulated trade deals? lol

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

As I previously posted (in this thread I think but I am not sure), President Trump got about 1/4th of what he actually wanted in this tax bill. I am sure he is looking at it as a start. America is a great nation that true patriots appreciate for all the right reasons, but it has been in decline for some time now. He was elected for his vision and the objectives/goals he saw as necessary for America to regain its former greatness.

I am sure that he is not looking at the just passed tax bill as the whole deal. I think he looks at it as just the beginning of true and complete reform that is greatly needed in order to benefit all the people.

The haters criticize it because it is only a partial fix and won't benefit this person or that person and/or it benefits 'the rich'. The patriots see it as opportunity to move forward and continue to improve.

Well that’s a very friendly and optimistic view. But if we are oooking objectively at the plan I think we see a very clear effort to put billions of dollars back in the accounts of corporations. That is clear and that is a supported position from many people as they believe it will create jobs and grow wages. But let’s be honest about it. And let’s be honest that what the bill does runs in contrast to how it is being presented by Trump.

He says it’s the biggest tax cut in American history, not true, Reagan took the tax rate from 70% to 28%. He also says it is a bill centered around the middle class. Again, not true. It gave $1000-$2000 a year to middle class families in some areas and a break even in other areas while Millions go into the accounts of top earners and corporations.

But you are not considering the difference between individual income tax and corporate tax, investment tax, inheritance tax plus the deductions and exemptions included in tax policy. Look at it from that perspective and you will see that the President is not mischaracterizing it.

I am looking at it through those lenses and it is pretty clear that this bill is heavily weighted towards the top. Again, if you believe in trickle down then that’s fine but at least be honest about what’s going on

 

[BluesLegend]

I did not say that the structure of national and personal debt are the same. I said that the basic definition is the same. Debt is occurred with one person or entity owe something to the other. And by the very definition of debt means that should the debtor default on that debt, somebody else will be the poorer for it. If there is enough default, the family prosperity will collapse. If there is aenough default, a country's economy will collapse. Same principle. Same results regardless of how they are created and/or structured.

But please, returning to the thread topic, what contributes most to the economic benefit of the people? Certainly a good credit rating can be a factor. That probably should have been included in the poll if we were allowed more options.

You are right about what debt is and the effects of default. My points was that one is a closed system and the other is an open system so how you manage them requires detailed understanding and different priorities.

To your question. With the path I see our economy headed towards I’d say distribution of wealth is a tremendous concern. Like I said in my original post. The top 1% is buying everything and taking ownership of the market. It will get to a point where it is not free anymore. So from a political standpoint I’d like to see less propping up of big corporations and more propping up of the middle class. Instead of giving billions to corporations to hire people, focus on education and middle class tax cuts and grants to help grow small business and local owned businesses. Make it a priority to increase home ownership. Every middle class family that works hard should be able to own a Home and/or start a business. This is not obtainable in many parts of our country. I’d like to see the focus go there.

But consider this. Excessive taxation and regulation and mandates makes it much more difficult for the little guy to complete with the with multi-state, multi-national corporations. General Electric, for instance, pays little or no taxes in the USA because they keep their losing businesses here to use for tax writeoffs while they make their big money overseas where it is much more profitable for them to do business. They also rathole their considerable capital overseas because it is so costly to bring it home and put it to work here.They actually welcome the mandates and regulations that they can and do afford anyway, because they know the little guys can't afford that which removes most of the chance the little guys will be much competition for them.

The little guys put so much at risk in a highly taxed, highly regulated system in which the economy is really sluggish that they choose not to risk. They sideline much of their working and venture capital and, even if they continue to operate, they haven't taken the considerable risk of losing what they have by expanding or growing or starting up new ventures. So we have had almost as much money sidelined here in the states as is parked off shore to avoid the tax man and the regulators.

The recently passed tax bill is intended to be an important first step to fix that situation. The Administration is rolling back unnecessary regulations, imposing no new ones, and has made our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the developed world. Since business cannot react immediately, it will be some months before we can assess how much incentive it will put out there to benefit us all. Meanwhile, everybody could do America a huge favor by hoping for good results instead of continuing to poison the atmosphere and tear it down.

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

 

[Slade3200]

You are right about what debt is and the effects of default. My points was that one is a closed system and the other is an open system so how you manage them requires detailed understanding and different priorities.

To your question. With the path I see our economy headed towards I’d say distribution of wealth is a tremendous concern. Like I said in my original post. The top 1% is buying everything and taking ownership of the market. It will get to a point where it is not free anymore. So from a political standpoint I’d like to see less propping up of big corporations and more propping up of the middle class. Instead of giving billions to corporations to hire people, focus on education and middle class tax cuts and grants to help grow small business and local owned businesses. Make it a priority to increase home ownership. Every middle class family that works hard should be able to own a Home and/or start a business. This is not obtainable in many parts of our country. I’d like to see the focus go there.

But consider this. Excessive taxation and regulation and mandates makes it much more difficult for the little guy to complete with the with multi-state, multi-national corporations. General Electric, for instance, pays little or no taxes in the USA because they keep their losing businesses here to use for tax writeoffs while they make their big money overseas where it is much more profitable for them to do business. They also rathole their considerable capital overseas because it is so costly to bring it home and put it to work here.They actually welcome the mandates and regulations that they can and do afford anyway, because they know the little guys can't afford that which removes most of the chance the little guys will be much competition for them.

The little guys put so much at risk in a highly taxed, highly regulated system in which the economy is really sluggish that they choose not to risk. They sideline much of their working and venture capital and, even if they continue to operate, they haven't taken the considerable risk of losing what they have by expanding or growing or starting up new ventures. So we have had almost as much money sidelined here in the states as is parked off shore to avoid the tax man and the regulators.

The recently passed tax bill is intended to be an important first step to fix that situation. The Administration is rolling back unnecessary regulations, imposing no new ones, and has made our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the developed world. Since business cannot react immediately, it will be some months before we can assess how much incentive it will put out there to benefit us all. Meanwhile, everybody could do America a huge favor by hoping for good results instead of continuing to poison the atmosphere and tear it down.

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

You are making up a narrative about my position that I never said. Fox claimed that companies like GE use the tax code to pay close to zero in taxes. Some call these loopholes. You responded saying that there is no such thing. Now you say that there are legit deduction to encourage investment. So what is it? Are companies like GE paying close to zero in taxes or not? Yes or no

 

[BluesLegend]

But consider this. Excessive taxation and regulation and mandates makes it much more difficult for the little guy to complete with the with multi-state, multi-national corporations. General Electric, for instance, pays little or no taxes in the USA because they keep their losing businesses here to use for tax writeoffs while they make their big money overseas where it is much more profitable for them to do business. They also rathole their considerable capital overseas because it is so costly to bring it home and put it to work here.They actually welcome the mandates and regulations that they can and do afford anyway, because they know the little guys can't afford that which removes most of the chance the little guys will be much competition for them.

The little guys put so much at risk in a highly taxed, highly regulated system in which the economy is really sluggish that they choose not to risk. They sideline much of their working and venture capital and, even if they continue to operate, they haven't taken the considerable risk of losing what they have by expanding or growing or starting up new ventures. So we have had almost as much money sidelined here in the states as is parked off shore to avoid the tax man and the regulators.

The recently passed tax bill is intended to be an important first step to fix that situation. The Administration is rolling back unnecessary regulations, imposing no new ones, and has made our corporate taxes more competitive with the rest of the developed world. Since business cannot react immediately, it will be some months before we can assess how much incentive it will put out there to benefit us all. Meanwhile, everybody could do America a huge favor by hoping for good results instead of continuing to poison the atmosphere and tear it down.

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

You are making up a narrative about my position that I never said. Fox claimed that companies like GE use the tax code to pay close to zero in taxes. Some call these loopholes. You responded saying that there is no such thing. Now you say that there are legit deduction to encourage investment. So what is it? Are companies like GE paying close to zero in taxes or not? Yes or no

The tax code is the tax code, businesses are allowed to write off and depreciate. Do you wish to single out GE and punish them for doing what every other business in the country has the legal right to do? There now I have twisted you into a knot good luck untangling yourself.

 

[task0778]

Do you want to spend your hard-earned money in a mom and pop store and get 5 items or go to Walmart and get 10 items for the same amount? I can tell you what the answer is for most of us with an annual income south of $50k, depending on where you live. It's called economies of scale I think, it ain't nice but it's real. That said, yes the gov't has to be making sure there's no unfair business practices going on, nobody is getting cheated. And as far as I'm concerned a particularly sharp eye needs to be on mergers and acquisitions to make sure the benefit to the consumer is paramount; IMHO there's gotta be a significant boost in benefit to everyone rather than just the big corp that want to get bigger.

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

i understand what you are saying and agree with your point about lower cost for consumer goods. I also, regrettably, shop at Walmart at times.i want things to be as cheap as possible like I think most people do when looking at it from a consumers perspective. But I’m looking at the big picture and identifying issues with our economic system and how they will effect us in the future. I get it. You don’t have a lot of money and want easy access to cheap goods, the Walmarts provide that so it’s good for you. Thats understandable but it is also short term thinking. I’m trying to analysis the big picture for the long term. We are in a real mess

Short term thinking is pretty much the position that a whole lot of people are in these days, and have been since the recession. The idea that we should pay more for the same thing so we can save the world from Walmart just isn't going to fly, it's just not. There is no way in hell that I and many others will voluntarily lower our standard of living to fix the big picture, it just ain't going to happen. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're trying to say, but whatever ideas you have to address certain issues with our economy are going to have to work without sacrificing our purchasing power.

Just because most people think short term and seek instant gratification that doesn’t mean it is the smart way to do things. I think the needs of those people definatley need to be considered but if we want to grow a strong, stable, and prosperous society with a healthy economy then we need to start having an honest conversation about what’s happening and what kind of projected path we are on. Otherwise we could find us up shit creek without a paddle 20 years from now

I'm ready to have that conversation when you are. Not in this thread though.

 

[Slade3200]

Let’s drill down on two of your points that sound like they are conflicting to me. You say that our corporate taxes are highest in the world and driving companies over seas. You also say that corporations like GE utilize loopholes to pay an effective tax rate of close to zero. How do both of those work for your argument?

Btw. Agree with you about the small businesses. I’m all for cutting taxes and regulations for them to make it easier for them to thrive. I’d even support a grant and credit system for them. It’s the big dogs that worry me and they are the ones that benefit the most from the new tax bill

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

You are making up a narrative about my position that I never said. Fox claimed that companies like GE use the tax code to pay close to zero in taxes. Some call these loopholes. You responded saying that there is no such thing. Now you say that there are legit deduction to encourage investment. So what is it? Are companies like GE paying close to zero in taxes or not? Yes or no

The tax code is the tax code, businesses are allowed to write off and depreciate. Do you wish to single out GE and punish them for doing what every other business in the country has the legal right to do? There now I have twisted you into a knot good luck untangling yourself.

No, did I say anything about punishment? Again, stop making shit up. I'll take it from your dodge that you agree with Foxes assertion and you recognize that, yes, via our tax code, companies like GE end up paying next to nothing in taxes. Am I right? (This is not a critical statement one way or the other, i'm not saying it is a good or bad thing, simply establishing the facts) So is this true or not, do companies like GE pay next to nothing in taxes via our code?

(its pretty pathetic that I need to speak to you like a 3rd grader, constantly repeating myself and correct your false interpretations of what I'm saying. You should work on your ability to have a straight forward conversation)

 

[BluesLegend]

Corporations ARE moving overseas to escape sky high US taxes and regulations hello. Second there are no "loopholes" I wish you people would stop spewing this LIE. You can't produce said loophole, you never can, hence its a lie.

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

You are making up a narrative about my position that I never said. Fox claimed that companies like GE use the tax code to pay close to zero in taxes. Some call these loopholes. You responded saying that there is no such thing. Now you say that there are legit deduction to encourage investment. So what is it? Are companies like GE paying close to zero in taxes or not? Yes or no

The tax code is the tax code, businesses are allowed to write off and depreciate. Do you wish to single out GE and punish them for doing what every other business in the country has the legal right to do? There now I have twisted you into a knot good luck untangling yourself.

No, did I say anything about punishment? Again, stop making shit up. I'll take it from your dodge that you agree with Foxes assertion and you recognize that, yes, via our tax code, companies like GE end up paying next to nothing in taxes. Am I right? (This is not a critical statement one way or the other, i'm not saying it is a good or bad thing, simply establishing the facts) So is this true or not, do companies like GE pay next to nothing in taxes via our code?

(its pretty pathetic that I need to speak to you like a 3rd grader, constantly repeating myself and correct your false interpretations of what I'm saying. You should work on your ability to have a straight forward conversation)

Lib please I live in the real world where liberals attempt to punish businesses every day.

 

[Slade3200]

You make great points and your Walmart example shows the power that corporations have over the Mom and pop shops and why so many are shutting down. They can’t compete or they need to go boutique and sell to the rich or niche markets. I’d like to go to a Mom and pop shop and by 10 items for the same price as buying the same 10 items from Walmart. How’s that?

That'd be great, but it ain't reality. The little guys cannot match the big guys in the price cuz they cannot match them for the costs of supply. Wish they could, we'd be better off with more competition, I'd rather see 10 or 20 smaller enterprises than 1 or 2 huge ones. BUT, I and millions of other low income folks have to go to Walmart to stretch our dollars as far as we can.

So, back to the thread on the benefits of this Trump tax cut, what the cuts in corp tax rates means is that more American businesses will stay here rather than leave the country to avoid the ridiculously high taxes, and that helps keep more jobs here rather than losing them. AND, it ought to help the pass throughs compete better with the big boys if their tax burden is reduced. Heck, the big boys can afford to hire tax experts, lawyers, and accountants to cut their tax liability anyway, so this looks to me like an leveling of the playing field a little bit. Coulda been better, maybe the Congress will make it better in the coming months.

i understand what you are saying and agree with your point about lower cost for consumer goods. I also, regrettably, shop at Walmart at times.i want things to be as cheap as possible like I think most people do when looking at it from a consumers perspective. But I’m looking at the big picture and identifying issues with our economic system and how they will effect us in the future. I get it. You don’t have a lot of money and want easy access to cheap goods, the Walmarts provide that so it’s good for you. Thats understandable but it is also short term thinking. I’m trying to analysis the big picture for the long term. We are in a real mess

Short term thinking is pretty much the position that a whole lot of people are in these days, and have been since the recession. The idea that we should pay more for the same thing so we can save the world from Walmart just isn't going to fly, it's just not. There is no way in hell that I and many others will voluntarily lower our standard of living to fix the big picture, it just ain't going to happen. Maybe I'm missing some of what you're trying to say, but whatever ideas you have to address certain issues with our economy are going to have to work without sacrificing our purchasing power.

Just because most people think short term and seek instant gratification that doesn’t mean it is the smart way to do things. I think the needs of those people definatley need to be considered but if we want to grow a strong, stable, and prosperous society with a healthy economy then we need to start having an honest conversation about what’s happening and what kind of projected path we are on. Otherwise we could find us up shit creek without a paddle 20 years from now

I'm ready to have that conversation when you are. Not in this thread though.

This thread is about which elements in the tax code benefit us the most from an economic point of view. It is pretty appropriate to discuss how economic elements effect our society so we can see where the tax code policy fits in. Happy to talk about it with you some other time though.

 

[Slade3200]

so you’re saying that Foxes claim that companies like GE find ways to pay next to nothing in taxes is false?

Christ okay there's only 1 tax code ALL businesses follow HELLO. If there is a business deduction in the tax code to encourage some industry sectors to invest, take risks, on the likely outcome that the business will make more money, grow, hire more people who will pay more taxes, etc. if you have a counter argument to that post it.

YOU PEOPLE have tunnel vision, you seek to punish businesses with taxes and regulations as if they deserve to be punished. Well what's happened, yeah they packed up and left your state and in some cases left the U.S. Businesses don't have to just bend over and let YOU PEOPLE screw them over.

You are making up a narrative about my position that I never said. Fox claimed that companies like GE use the tax code to pay close to zero in taxes. Some call these loopholes. You responded saying that there is no such thing. Now you say that there are legit deduction to encourage investment. So what is it? Are companies like GE paying close to zero in taxes or not? Yes or no

The tax code is the tax code, businesses are allowed to write off and depreciate. Do you wish to single out GE and punish them for doing what every other business in the country has the legal right to do? There now I have twisted you into a knot good luck untangling yourself.

No, did I say anything about punishment? Again, stop making shit up. I'll take it from your dodge that you agree with Foxes assertion and you recognize that, yes, via our tax code, companies like GE end up paying next to nothing in taxes. Am I right? (This is not a critical statement one way or the other, i'm not saying it is a good or bad thing, simply establishing the facts) So is this true or not, do companies like GE pay next to nothing in taxes via our code?

(its pretty pathetic that I need to speak to you like a 3rd grader, constantly repeating myself and correct your false interpretations of what I'm saying. You should work on your ability to have a straight forward conversation)

Lib please I live in the real world where liberals attempt to punish businesses every day.

Yet you can't have a straight forward conversation. Or answer a simple question. Nice. Keep diverting and showing us you don't know what you are talking about.