That WAS The Democratic and Repubican Party

[Curried Goats]

No it can’t. Yes it can fund experts, like I said it can act like a market player

It's the market creator. You can't own a mountain or a mine or land or access any of the resources that get used to produce things to sell in a market without their blessing.

 

[struth]

It's the market creator. You can't own a mountain or a mine or land or access any of the resources that get used to produce things to sell in a market without their blessing.

correct, you can't purchase something from someone with our their consent, and that is the market..

 

[Curried Goats]

correct, you can't purchase something from someone with our their consent, and that is the market..

Where do you get the resources to produce the things you bring to market?

 

[struth]

Where do you get the resources to produce the things you bring to market?

from the market. From purchasing things from other people. Do you live under a rock?

 

[Red Front]

No it can’t. Yes it can fund experts, like I said it can act like a market player

You're spewing nonsense. The assertion that the government can only act as a market player overlooks the profound influence and capabilities of state institutions in driving innovation, particularly through entities like government laboratories. These labs are not mere market participants but are instrumental in fundamental and applied research that private entities often deem too risky or not immediately profitable. Here's a list of key government labs and their contributions, highlighting the government's role beyond the market:

1. Los Alamos National Laboratory: Famed for its pivotal role in the Manhattan Project, this lab has since been at the forefront of nuclear research, material science, and national security, far beyond any market-driven initiative.
2. Sandia National Laboratories: Specializes in nuclear weapons, energy security, and infrastructure protection, providing critical research and development that supports national interests.
3. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory: Focuses on nuclear security, ensuring the safety and reliability of the nation's nuclear arsenal, and advancing the fields of energy, environmental science, and biodefense.
4. Oak Ridge National Laboratory: Key in energy production and nuclear research, including the development of nuclear reactors and research into materials science and supercomputing.
5. Argonne National Laboratory: Leads in nuclear reactors technology, environmental research, and developing batteries and renewable energy technologies.
6. Brookhaven National Laboratory: Advances in nuclear and high-energy physics, materials science, and the first synchrotron light source in the United States, vital for materials research.
7. Pacific Northwest National Laboratory: Focuses on energy, the environment, and national security, working on nuclear research, environmental remediation, and grid resilience.
8. National Renewable Energy Laboratory: Dedicated to advancing renewable energy and energy efficiency technologies, crucial for sustainable development and not initially profitable or attractive to private capital.

These laboratories, funded by the government, are clear examples of how the state operates beyond the confines of market forces, addressing fundamental research and societal needs that the market often neglects or finds unprofitable in the short term. They exemplify direct action by the government in realms where the market either cannot or will not tread due to the absence of immediate financial returns. This showcases the government's unique position to take long-term perspectives, invest in foundational science and technology, and prioritize national and global welfare over profit.

The notion that the government can only function within the market's limitations is a myopic understanding of the state's role and capacity. Governments have the unique ability to mobilize resources for the collective good, tackle grand challenges, and pave the way for breakthroughs that the market mechanism, driven by profit motives, often fails to acknowledge or fund.

 

[struth]

You're spewing nonsense. The assertion that the government can only act as a market player overlooks the profound influence and capabilities of state institutions in driving innovation, particularly through entities like government laboratories. These labs are not mere market participants but are instrumental in fundamental and applied research that private entities often deem too risky or not immediately profitable. Here's a list of key government labs and their contributions, highlighting the government's role beyond the market:

1. Los Alamos National Laboratory: Famed for its pivotal role in the Manhattan Project, this lab has since been at the forefront of nuclear research, material science, and national security, far beyond any market-driven initiative.
2. Sandia National Laboratories: Specializes in nuclear weapons, energy security, and infrastructure protection, providing critical research and development that supports national interests.
3. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory: Focuses on nuclear security, ensuring the safety and reliability of the nation's nuclear arsenal, and advancing the fields of energy, environmental science, and biodefense.
4. Oak Ridge National Laboratory: Key in energy production and nuclear research, including the development of nuclear reactors and research into materials science and supercomputing.
5. Argonne National Laboratory: Leads in nuclear reactors technology, environmental research, and developing batteries and renewable energy technologies.
6. Brookhaven National Laboratory: Advances in nuclear and high-energy physics, materials science, and the first synchrotron light source in the United States, vital for materials research.
7. Pacific Northwest National Laboratory: Focuses on energy, the environment, and national security, working on nuclear research, environmental remediation, and grid resilience.
8. National Renewable Energy Laboratory: Dedicated to advancing renewable energy and energy efficiency technologies, crucial for sustainable development and not initially profitable or attractive to private capital.

These laboratories, funded by the government, are clear examples of how the state operates beyond the confines of market forces, addressing fundamental research and societal needs that the market often neglects or finds unprofitable in the short term. They exemplify direct action by the government in realms where the market either cannot or will not tread due to the absence of immediate financial returns. This showcases the government's unique position to take long-term perspectives, invest in foundational science and technology, and prioritize national and global welfare over profit.

The notion that the government can only function within the market's limitations is a myopic understanding of the state's role and capacity. Governments have the unique ability to mobilize resources for the collective good, tackle grand challenges, and pave the way for breakthroughs that the market mechanism, driven by profit motives, often fails to acknowledge or fund.

all examples of the Govt acting as a consumer. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Curried Goats]

from the market. From purchasing things from other people. Do you live under a rock?

I'm trying to get you to give me your coherent understanding of how a capitalist system even comes to be since you insist on calling a socialist government, slavery. It's an attempt to see if you are capable of reasonably contrasting the two.

So if you can bare with me, let's work this backwards and see if your argument stands up to scrutiny.

If resources come from the market where does the market come from?

 

[struth]

I'm trying to get you to give me your coherent understanding of how a capitalist system even comes to be since you insist on calling a socialist government, slavery. It's an attempt to see if you are capable of reasonably contrasting the two.

So if you can bare with me, let's work this backwards and see if your argument stands up to scrutiny.

If resources come from the market where does the market come from?

It comes to be, because of how humans naturally behave. In our own self interest. Slavery is not the natural order

 

[Curried Goats]

It comes to be, because of how humans naturally behave. In our own self interest. Slavery is not the natural order

Every way humans behave is natural because we are creatures of nature. Subjugating others for our benefit is as natural as claiming mountains, rivers, mines, fertile land and all their resources for our benefit. My question has always been how does one come to own these resources? Is it not by force?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Great Moments in democrat Party Race Relations

Hey remember when during the FDR Administration the democrat Party perverted scientific experiments on black Syphilis patients and denied them treatment just to see how they became permanently disfigured or died?

 

[struth]

Every way humans behave is natural because we are creatures of nature. Subjugating others for our benefit is as natural as claiming mountains, rivers, mines, fertile land and all their resources for our benefit. My question has always been how does one come to own these resources? Is it not by force?

No, slavery is not a natural state. Sorry you feel it is.

 

[Curried Goats]

No, slavery is not a natural state. Sorry you feel it is.

I didn't say it was a natural state, I said enslaving and hording resources were natural inclinations.

 

[Red Front]

all examples of the Govt acting as a consumer. Thanks for sharing.

It's your capitalist buddies who are consuming the people's resources:

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

The capitalist-run market produces nothing, it's just a medium of exchange based on wage labor. People produce things, not markets.

Governments don't need markets to produce goods and services. A democratic, constitutional republic, is a social apparatus organized and supported by the people to manage their large-scale projects and socioeconomic affairs. Unlike private for-profit corporations that are run like totalitarian regimes, devoid of any representation or elections. The working class is much better off with a democratic government as their boss than a private-sector, for-profit despot, who reduces his employees to mere commodities and pieces of machinery. With or without a market, the government can be just as much a productive enterprise as any privately owned, for-profit company.

 

[struth]

I didn't say it was a natural state, I said enslaving and hording resources were natural inclinations.

enslaving resources? As far as hording resources, sure.....it's just everyone values different resources, differently.

 

[struth]

It's your capitalist buddies who are consuming the people's resources:

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,502,641,455	957
2	Intel	$8,360,460,516	128
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,550,136,090	786
5	Micron Technology	$6,856,681,915	19
6	Amazon.com	$5,802,700,434	455
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
11	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	216
12	Sempra Energy	$3,878,692,264	51
13	NRG Energy	$3,405,383,876	264
14	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
20	Walt Disney	$2,483,328,762	255
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
23	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
24	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
25	Samsung	$2,178,196,443	83
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Toyota	$2,111,010,689	239
28	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
29	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Comcast	$2,032,609,740	398
32	Paramount Global	$1,973,256,854	336
33	Brookfield Corporation	$1,969,735,585	287
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,906,554,975	227
35	Apple Inc.	$1,900,308,359	63
36	Nissan	$1,892,314,165	98
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,838,569,373	1,194
38	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
39	General Electric	$1,779,446,759	998
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,762,150,650	1,151
41	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
42	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
43	Energy Transfer	$1,680,794,666	156
44	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
45	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
46	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,564,430,563	64
47	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,536,054,012	5
48	IBM Corp.	$1,519,901,697	368
49	General Atomics	$1,505,785,957	111
50	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
51	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
52	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
53	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
54	Lockheed Martin	$1,337,674,082	323
55	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
56	Northrop Grumman	$1,275,514,883	284
57	Corning Inc.	$1,269,303,359	400
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,166,657,132	781
61	SK Holdings	$1,081,550,283	9
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
68	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
69	SkyWest	$922,686,541	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	59
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$891,705,089	592
73	LG	$883,168,466	88
74	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
75	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	92
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$796,947,128	953
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$772,994,690	218
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$766,205,550	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$676,761,373	498
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	632
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
97	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
98	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79
99	Eli Lilly	$601,741,368	77

The capitalist-run market produces nothing, it's just a medium of exchange based on wage labor. People produce things, not markets.

Governments don't need markets to produce goods and services. A democratic, constitutional republic, is a social apparatus organized and supported by the people to manage their large-scale projects and socioeconomic affairs. Unlike private for-profit corporations that are run like totalitarian regimes, devoid of any representation or elections. The working class is much better off with a democratic government as their boss than a private-sector, for-profit despot, who reduces his employees to mere commodities and pieces of machinery. With or without a market, the government can be just as much a productive enterprise as any privately owned, for-profit company.

what in the world do you mean they produce nothing? Everyone of those businesses produce things, good or services, that the people purchase.

I have no idea what else you are rambling on about, nobody said we don't need a Govt....and you are right businesses aren't run like a Govt, they have to actually produce to survive

 

[Curried Goats]

enslaving resources? As far as hording resources, sure.....it's just everyone values different resources, differently.

Are you purposely misquoting me or are you just dyslexic? I wrote enslaving and hording resources are natural inclinations. And everyone values access to the resources they need, it's just that some think resources should belong to them.

 

[struth]

Are you purposely misquoting me or are you just dyslexic? I wrote enslaving and hording resources are natural inclinations. And everyone values access to the resources they need, it's just that some think resources should belong to them.

no i am asking a question...."enslaving resources?" what the f does that even mean..

yes, i think my resources belong to me....why in the world wouldn't I? if I value them, and need them, I am going to go get them. Yes, everyone values different things, differently

 

[Red Front]

what in the world do you mean they produce nothing? Everyone of those businesses produce things, good or services, that the people purchase.

I have no idea what else you are rambling on about, nobody said we don't need a Govt....and you are right businesses aren't run like a Govt, they have to actually produce to survive

People produce things, not markets. Do you want me to repeat that since you ignored it the first time? Many companies are run like tyrannical governments and governments also need to meet the needs of their citizens by producing goods and services. So you're making absurd statements due to your ignorance.

 

[Curried Goats]

no i am asking a question...."enslaving resources?" what the f does that even mean..

Enslaving - as in forcing someone into slavery. You were saying slavery is not the natural order. Neither are markets or ownership over land, mountains, rivers or mines.

yes, i think my resources belong to me....why in the world wouldn't I? if I value them, and need them, I am going to go get them. Yes, everyone values different things, differently

So desire to have something is what makes it yours? How does that work with a resource like a river or a mine or fertile land that many people are going to want access to?

 

[struth]

People produce things, not markets. Do you want me to repeat that since you ignored it the first time? Many companies are run like tyrannical governments and governments also need to meet the needs of their citizens by producing goods and services. So you're making absurd statements due to your ignorance.

markets are people....what the f are you talking about? People produce things and trade them in a market.

Sure, some are, but they don't often last if they run their company like a tyrantical govt. A good Govt will serve it's people well by getting out of their way and alllowing them to produce goods and services, then that Govt can exist by taxing those people for the goods and services they produce. A bad Govt will often get in the way of that, and enslave it's people....we have seen that with the many failed socialist regimes throughout history