That Ugly "A" Word Again..."Apartheid."

[flacaltenn]

The term "apartheid" is also a bit rash.. There are 17 current ARAB members of the Knesset.. The Arabs have ALWAYS had representation in Israel governance.

It's hard to be speaking in apartheid terms when there is no evidence that Arab citizens of Israel proper haven't been incorporated.

 

[MHunterB]

I seriously doubt - to say the least! - that 'history' will view this situation as a 'genocide'. Unless the Arab League plot to disenfranchise their assorted Jewish citizenry and eject them with no compensation for any of theier property or their lands is going to be viewed as the attempted genocide it was ?

Nor is it at all sensible, IMO, to suggest that a lack of resolution would be 'damaging to....Jews worldwide'. No reasonable person or group is going to blame 'Jews worldwide' for whatever an Israeli administration fails to do.

they already are, or so the jews in different countries claim.

i am not going to debate the definition of "reasonable" with you.
you think it is reasonable to shun neo-nazis. i do too. some people think it reasonable to shun those who support israel based upon the israeli treatment of the palestinians. people have been using the word "genocide" more commonly in referring to the situation. it started a year or two ago.

>>>>>> I'd like to see a link to some actual news articles supporting this contention.

>>>>>> Please stop assuming you know what I think: you have a sucko 'track record' on that. You are also incorrect.

>>>>>> People may be using the word 'genocide' - but that doesn't make it any more accurate than the Egyptian 'news article' I referred to.

you are evading the initial question and coming up with all kinds of diversions and excuses. it is not at all unlike what people have seen israel do over the years rom at least the time of sharon.


>>>>>> Your "initial question" referred to "borders, prisoners and refugees": I started with the refugees. If you want to describe that as 'evading' and 'coming up with all kinds of diversions and excuses', that's your right. If you want to compare an inaccurate and derogatory description of my participation in this discussion to some vague ('what people have seen Israel do'.....) acvcusation against Israel, that is also your right.

I think it's extremely outrageous of you to be USING my commnets as your excuse for making yet another 'shot' at Israel.





if israel wants peace, they have to sit down and negotiate peace instead of constantly finding reasons not to. if they want the west bank and to drive the palesstinians out or make any nation unviable, then all they have to do is keep doing what they are doing, but there are going to be enormous consequences to that.


>>>>>>>Why should any group 'sit down and negotiate' with any other group who refers to their government and their entire nation as 'illegal' and worse, who have in tehir foundational document announced an intent to destroy that nation and murder all of its people? (I am referring to the HAMAS Charter, which features no end of language straight from 'The Protocols')



The burden cannot be fairly placed entirely upon Israel and yet that is what you APPEAR to be seeking to do.

 

[MHunterB]

Where is that link to the ACTUAL proposal, Seal?

Because your ideas or mone are pretty well meaningless since neither of us is part of any of the groups involved. And we certainly are not on any committees to develop such proposals.

So why don't you start this off with the FACTS?

 

[sealadaigh]

The PA is not particularly honest and is certainly NOT 'objective' or 'impartial'.

Why should any reasonable American citizen give the PA's words even the credibility they'd give Israel, which is an ally of the US?

"The Palestinian Authority warned on Saturday that long-standing lack of movement toward peace with Israel was threatening the concept of a two-state solution and could lead to Palestinians being left in an Israeli-run "apartheid" state."

abbas sounds frustrated to me and wants to enter into negotiiations, and his attempts are always being rejected by israel.

you attack the corruption of the PA. i could attack the corruption of the israeli government. certainly both governments come into play, but it is the best interest of the palestinian officials to make peace, which is what they are trying to do. i cannot say the same for the israeli officials. the two equally balanced maor parties need to court the various parties representing the settlers in order for one to come out on top.

we could do this forever. it would lead nowhere.

how about this. what exactly do you think a solution is that will provide for a viable palestinian state and a peace partner with israel? the issues are borders, prisoners, and reugees. otherwise, you really are faced with history calling this a genocide. do you realise how damaging that will be to israel and jews worldwide.

The values of Israelis and Palestinians are WAAAAY too different to consider a shared governing responsibility.

To answer your last question -- you only have to ask yourself why the country that ISRAEL TOOK the West Bank and Jerusalem FROM in that war -- wants no part of responsibility for the Palestinians there now.. If Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt were SERIOUS about CONTRIBUTING stability and support to an economic Pali state, the negotiations would be at a better level. Between Israel and THOSE arab countries -- stuff COULD get done..

Why is it that Jordan washed their hands of the West Bank in the river? Israel did not those lands from "the Palestinians".

so, israel won't negotiaate with the palestinians because of ordan and egypt.

i think we are coming up with some pretty strange reasons for israel to not negotiate with the palestinians, when abbas, the head of the PA, has offered to negotiate.

my favorite so far is adolescent egyptian girl gum chewers, but i'm kinda partial to maggie. i think she's cute.

 

[MHunterB]

BIK, if you eat a heavy sandwich like that now, it'll just go to your waist - unless you're going to do a half-hour cardio workout before you go to sleep?

 

[BecauseIKnow]

BIK, if you eat a heavy sandwich like that now, it'll just go to your waist - unless you're going to do a half-hour cardio workout before you go to sleep?

, btw did seal say he thinks she's cute? Who's cute lol

 

[BecauseIKnow]

This two state solution isn't gonna happen or go anywhere.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Netanyahu needs to be willing to make compromises and end settlement construction

 

[MHunterB]

Speaking of 'sleep' - it's 1 AM and I need my beauty rest. Or whatever I can get before the two dustbunny factories stamped all over me in their 'wee hours' feline frolicking.....

 

[Billo_Really]

The term "apartheid" is also a bit rash.. There are 17 current ARAB members of the Knesset.. The Arabs have ALWAYS had representation in Israel governance.

It's hard to be speaking in apartheid terms when there is no evidence that Arab citizens of Israel proper haven't been incorporated.

What do you call "jew only" roads? What do you call the "Nakba Law"? What do you call the Minister of the Interior saying there should be segregation between Israeli's and arabs?

That's not liberty and justice for all, that's apartheid.

 

[sealadaigh]

I seriously doubt - to say the least! - that 'history' will view this situation as a 'genocide'. Unless the Arab League plot to disenfranchise their assorted Jewish citizenry and eject them with no compensation for any of theier property or their lands is going to be viewed as the attempted genocide it was ?

Nor is it at all sensible, IMO, to suggest that a lack of resolution would be 'damaging to....Jews worldwide'. No reasonable person or group is going to blame 'Jews worldwide' for whatever an Israeli administration fails to do.

they already are, or so the jews in different countries claim.

i am not going to debate the definition of "reasonable" with you.
you think it is reasonable to shun neo-nazis. i do too. some people think it reasonable to shun those who support israel based upon the israeli treatment of the palestinians. people have been using the word "genocide" more commonly in referring to the situation. it started a year or two ago.

>>>>>> I'd like to see a link to some actual news articles supporting this contention.

>>>>>> Please stop assuming you know what I think: you have a sucko 'track record' on that. You are also incorrect.

>>>>>> People may be using the word 'genocide' - but that doesn't make it any more accurate than the Egyptian 'news article' I referred to.
you are evading the initial question and coming up with all kinds of diversions and excuses. it is not at all unlike what people have seen israel do over the years rom at least the time of sharon.


>>>>>> Your "initial question" referred to "borders, prisoners and refugees": I started with the refugees. If you want to describe that as 'evading' and 'coming up with all kinds of diversions and excuses', that's your right. If you want to compare an inaccurate and derogatory description of my participation in this discussion to some vague ('what people have seen Israel do'.....) acvcusation against Israel, that is also your right.

I think it's extremely outrageous of you to be USING my commnets as your excuse for making yet another 'shot' at Israel.




if israel wants peace, they have to sit down and negotiate peace instead of constantly finding reasons not to. if they want the west bank and to drive the palesstinians out or make any nation unviable, then all they have to do is keep doing what they are doing, but there are going to be enormous consequences to that.


>>>>>>>Why should any group 'sit down and negotiate' with any other group who refers to their government and their entire nation as 'illegal' and worse, who have in tehir foundational document announced an intent to destroy that nation and murder all of its people? (I am referring to the HAMAS Charter, which features no end of language straight from 'The Protocols')



The burden cannot be fairly placed entirely upon Israel and yet that is what you APPEAR to be seeking to do.

above in blue is maggie. i am in black. my responses below.

here are some articles to support my contention that the word "genocide" is being used more frequently on connection with israel...

Israel Genocide

The United States Promotes Israeli Genocide Against the Palestinians | Global Research

Israel is Guilty of Genocide and Crimes against Humanity | NowPublic News Coverage

Turkey's PM accuses Israel of genocide - UPI.com

before you get to eager to critique the sources, please recall i said i had seen and heard it being mentioned more and more frequently. they are not hate sites nor particularly agenda based propaganda sites. i hadn't really heard the word "genocide" linked with israel too much earlier than about three years ago other than an early 1980s UN general assembly resolution condemning the sabra shatila massacre (not a word i like to use, but in this case, i think it is appropriate) by a vote of 123 yays, 0 nays, and 34 abstentions or no votes...the numbers are to the best of my recollection. also, while others use the word "genocide" i myself prefer "acts of genocide."

as for the egyptian news article(s) you referred to, it seemed like you indicated that they stated the "free gum" was a fact. most references to genocide are generally opinions or contained in opinion publications.

my apologies or assuming you shunned neo-nazis. i thought you had criticised them in the past. i myself don't like them at all , as do most of the people i know. you ,ay eel the opposite, but as the french say, "vive la difference." we can talk about later.

ewish "refugees"? that is a hard one. maybe some reparation is owed to some of them. some others who left arab and muslim lands did so willfully to seek a home in israel and affter 50+ years it will be hard todetermine. i have no idea, though, why you would want to talk about alleged refugees from foreign countries in a peace talk between israel and palestine. i don't think the PA and abbas has a right to speaak on behalf of the arab league or iran. it sounds like ust another bogus claim to not sit down and talk.

the palestinians have 5.000.000 legitimate refugees from the land of israel. israel mowes them legally.

as for my comparison to your participation to israel, it is actually pretty valid, at least from my end. i see israel throw out ecuse after excuse not to talk and i see you doing the same.

HAMAS has backed away from their charter substantially and remember, until a peace is negotiated, both parties are still at war. might be a good reason for all parties to come to the table, doncha think?

and finally...you state "The burden cannot be fairly placed entirely upon Israel and yet that is what you APPEAR to be seeking to do."

wrong.

the burden can quite fairly, justly, and righteously placed upon israel for not sitting down to negotiate. abbas has been constantly asking to negotiate and has shown an almost godlike patience and cooperation, while netanyahu and his predecessors have constantly managed to take time out from their settlement building to offer a ressounding "NO!!!"

 

[sealadaigh]

Where is that link to the ACTUAL proposal, Seal?

Because your ideas or mone are pretty well meaningless since neither of us is part of any of the groups involved. And we certainly are not on any committees to develop such proposals.

So why don't you start this off with the FACTS?

i posted the proposal...the arab peace initiative.

. the palestinians i know welcome people with diverse backgrounds to speak on their behalf and i am happy to do so. the palestine chronicle, one of the very early and still a major palestinian advocacy group is just up the road from me. great people.

i think your ideas mean something. don't sell yourself short, maggie.

it was a question/statement, my initial post.

 

[flacaltenn]

"The Palestinian Authority warned on Saturday that long-standing lack of movement toward peace with Israel was threatening the concept of a two-state solution and could lead to Palestinians being left in an Israeli-run "apartheid" state."

abbas sounds frustrated to me and wants to enter into negotiiations, and his attempts are always being rejected by israel.

you attack the corruption of the PA. i could attack the corruption of the israeli government. certainly both governments come into play, but it is the best interest of the palestinian officials to make peace, which is what they are trying to do. i cannot say the same for the israeli officials. the two equally balanced maor parties need to court the various parties representing the settlers in order for one to come out on top.

we could do this forever. it would lead nowhere.

how about this. what exactly do you think a solution is that will provide for a viable palestinian state and a peace partner with israel? the issues are borders, prisoners, and reugees. otherwise, you really are faced with history calling this a genocide. do you realise how damaging that will be to israel and jews worldwide.

The values of Israelis and Palestinians are WAAAAY too different to consider a shared governing responsibility.

To answer your last question -- you only have to ask yourself why the country that ISRAEL TOOK the West Bank and Jerusalem FROM in that war -- wants no part of responsibility for the Palestinians there now.. If Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt were SERIOUS about CONTRIBUTING stability and support to an economic Pali state, the negotiations would be at a better level. Between Israel and THOSE arab countries -- stuff COULD get done..

Why is it that Jordan washed their hands of the West Bank in the river? Israel did not those lands from "the Palestinians".

so, israel won't negotiaate with the palestinians because of ordan and egypt.

i think we are coming up with some pretty strange reasons for israel to not negotiate with the palestinians, when abbas, the head of the PA, has offered to negotiate.

my favorite so far is adolescent egyptian girl gum chewers, but i'm kinda partial to maggie. i think she's cute.

Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt were the entities that Owned and administered the occupied lands prior to the war --- and NOW Jordan has no interest in even playing a role in establishing a secure Palestinian homeland in their former land. Same with Egypt who looks at Gaza as a security LIABILITY -- not as a partner for a settlement. The negotiations for a Palestinian homeland need to be at a HIGHER level.. And Israel's Arab neighbors want no part of the hassle of commiting THEIR honor and resources to make it so.. Why is that?

 

[flacaltenn]

The term "apartheid" is also a bit rash.. There are 17 current ARAB members of the Knesset.. The Arabs have ALWAYS had representation in Israel governance.

It's hard to be speaking in apartheid terms when there is no evidence that Arab citizens of Israel proper haven't been incorporated.

What do you call "jew only" roads? What do you call the "Nakba Law"? What do you call the Minister of the Interior saying there should be segregation between Israeli's and arabs?

That's not liberty and justice for all, that's apartheid.

In Israel proper 20% of the population are fully enrolled Citizen Arabs.. Like I said, there are 17 members of the Knesset who are Arabs and they have ALWAYS had Arabs in the legislature.

It is not possible to include the population of the occupied territories INTO Israel as citizens. Neither side really wants that. But Israel is NOT an apartheid state. But there NEEDS to be separation with the occupied territories BECAUSE there is no desire to create ONE STATE. "Jew only" roads are a Pali term, those roads are for CITIZENS of Israel including Jews, Arabs, Christians and anyone else with Israeli credentials..

 

[sealadaigh]

The values of Israelis and Palestinians are WAAAAY too different to consider a shared governing responsibility.

To answer your last question -- you only have to ask yourself why the country that ISRAEL TOOK the West Bank and Jerusalem FROM in that war -- wants no part of responsibility for the Palestinians there now.. If Jordan and Lebanon and Egypt were SERIOUS about CONTRIBUTING stability and support to an economic Pali state, the negotiations would be at a better level. Between Israel and THOSE arab countries -- stuff COULD get done..

Why is it that Jordan washed their hands of the West Bank in the river? Israel did not those lands from "the Palestinians".

so, israel won't negotiaate with the palestinians because of ordan and egypt.

i think we are coming up with some pretty strange reasons for israel to not negotiate with the palestinians, when abbas, the head of the PA, has offered to negotiate.

my favorite so far is adolescent egyptian girl gum chewers, but i'm kinda partial to maggie. i think she's cute.

Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt were the entities that Owned and administered the occupied lands prior to the war --- and NOW Jordan has no interest in even playing a role in establishing a secure Palestinian homeland in their former land. Same with Egypt who looks at Gaza as a security LIABILITY -- not as a partner for a settlement. The negotiations for a Palestinian homeland need to be at a HIGHER level.. And Israel's Arab neighbors want no part of the hassle of commiting THEIR honor and resources to make it so.. Why is that?

and again, are you saying that israel won't negotiate because jordan, lebanon, and egypt aren't involved. i have never heard of that before.

if israel wants jordan, egypt, and lebanon involved, they should ask.

again, all i see is people making excuses for israel's refusal to sit down and talk with the very willing palestinian representatives on the one hand and saying they want peace and secure borders on the other. nothing...zero...will happen unless they sit down across from each other and begin to talk to each other. palestine is willing.

it doesn't make sense.

 

[sealadaigh]

The term "apartheid" is also a bit rash.. There are 17 current ARAB members of the Knesset.. The Arabs have ALWAYS had representation in Israel governance.

It's hard to be speaking in apartheid terms when there is no evidence that Arab citizens of Israel proper haven't been incorporated.

What do you call "jew only" roads? What do you call the "Nakba Law"? What do you call the Minister of the Interior saying there should be segregation between Israeli's and arabs?

That's not liberty and justice for all, that's apartheid.

In Israel proper 20% of the population are fully enrolled Citizen Arabs.. Like I said, there are 17 members of the Knesset who are Arabs and they have ALWAYS had Arabs in the legislature.

It is not possible to include the population of the occupied territories INTO Israel as citizens. Neither side really wants that. But Israel is NOT an apartheid state. But there NEEDS to be separation with the occupied territories BECAUSE there is no desire to create ONE STATE. "Jew only" roads are a Pali term, those roads are for CITIZENS of Israel including Jews, Arabs, Christians and anyone else with Israeli credentials..

re apartheid: i think you should bone up on the internaational convention on the suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid, which was passed by the UNGA in the early '70s i believe; then you may want to check out the rome statute of the ICC on the matter.

as for me, and having read those, i am inclined to align myself with several nobel peace prize winners to include jimmy carter, mairead corrigan, and particularly desmond tutu and nelson mandela, who lived under the south africa apartheid regime. there are also several international human rights organisations that consider israel an apartheid state...educators...journalists...

you may, of course, align yourself with the israeli foreign ministry in proclaiming there is no apartheid in israel, but i have to tell you, i think they may be a bit biased.

as for "jews only" roads, get with the program. de juris and de facto. sure, any israeli can use them but they were made for settlers and the settlements are "jews only" for sure. it's kind like someone from the deep south saying..."sho 'nuff boy. our nigras can vote." when he has some impossible literacy test stuffed in his back pocket.

 

[The Rabbi]

What Israel actually needs to do is implement the "real one state solution". Namely they need to lay claim over land they justly conquered in past wars and deport the population to countries where they belong, like Jordan. No other country would put up with the terrorist crap that Israel has had to put up with. Telling Uncle to stick it would go a long way here.

 

[flacaltenn]

so, israel won't negotiaate with the palestinians because of ordan and egypt.

i think we are coming up with some pretty strange reasons for israel to not negotiate with the palestinians, when abbas, the head of the PA, has offered to negotiate.

my favorite so far is adolescent egyptian girl gum chewers, but i'm kinda partial to maggie. i think she's cute.

Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt were the entities that Owned and administered the occupied lands prior to the war --- and NOW Jordan has no interest in even playing a role in establishing a secure Palestinian homeland in their former land. Same with Egypt who looks at Gaza as a security LIABILITY -- not as a partner for a settlement. The negotiations for a Palestinian homeland need to be at a HIGHER level.. And Israel's Arab neighbors want no part of the hassle of commiting THEIR honor and resources to make it so.. Why is that?

and again, are you saying that israel won't negotiate because jordan, lebanon, and egypt aren't involved. i have never heard of that before.

if israel wants jordan, egypt, and lebanon involved, they should ask.

again, all i see is people making excuses for israel's refusal to sit down and talk with the very willing palestinian representatives on the one hand and saying they want peace and secure borders on the other. nothing...zero...will happen unless they sit down across from each other and begin to talk to each other. palestine is willing.

it doesn't make sense.

Let's make this clear... In 1967, the Army that challenged Israel from the banks of the Jordan River wasn't the PA. Those weren't Palestinian jets and tanks crossing the river into Israel or from the Golan Heights or from the Gaza strip.. I asked you a rhetorical

Let me help.. Those "occupied" folks on the West Bank and Gaza are JORDANIANS and Egyptians. And like the Rabbi said --- they should have been sent back to their HOME countries and a peace negotiated thru recognized parties..

Jordan/Egypt et al --- are No longer interested in claims to that land or those people. They have ABANDONED them.. Those govts would NEVER CONSIDER co-signing their lease on a Palestinian state. Why? Because they are uncontrollable. They are infested with radicals whose goals are contrary to the welfare of THOSE ARAB STATES.. And the result was a kick in the ass and GOOD -RIDDANCE...

My observation is called "clear thinking".. It's been absent from the peace process because to suggest that Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon lay claim to the SEIZED territorities would embarass those countries when they REFUSED to do so.. Because THEN -- pressuring Jordan for instance to help assure security of ISRAEL would put JORDAN in jeopardy because of the uncontrollable actions of the radical Pali governments.

The WAR that caused the (badly run) Occupation is long gone and so is the claim to the spoils from the countries that lost. They want no part of the Palestinian problem. In fact, it appears they were RELIEVED to get their "palestinian problem" so easily...

That's the answer to the question that no one ever asks.. But answers WHY -- there's no "peace process"...

 

[Lipush]

Netanyahu needs to be willing to make compromises and end settlement construction

And your brothers? What are THEY willing to sacrifice?

 

[Lipush]

The term "apartheid" is also a bit rash.. There are 17 current ARAB members of the Knesset.. The Arabs have ALWAYS had representation in Israel governance.

It's hard to be speaking in apartheid terms when there is no evidence that Arab citizens of Israel proper haven't been incorporated.

What do you call "jew only" roads? What do you call the "Nakba Law"? What do you call the Minister of the Interior saying there should be segregation between Israeli's and arabs?

That's not liberty and justice for all, that's apartheid.

Jew-roads exist because of Jewish deaths due to Palestinian terror.

The Nakba law is very much moral and needed. It says that Israel will not fund any organizations which deny its existence or state that Israel's establishment is a disaster.

Very much fair. Only those who are Jew haters see those kind of things "apartheid".

apartheid is a palestinian propaganda.