Thanks for Nothing EPA...

[flacaltenn]

Been driving the same BMW station wagon for 18 years... Still runs good, but parts are hard to get for "almost collector" cars.. It has only 150,000 miles on it and my super hero independent BMW mechanic says he could KEEP it running for another 3 or 4 years... VERY little major maintenance over those 18 years...

SO -- I've been car shopping.. ALMOST made a deal last night on used BMW crossover.. But I learned a couple things...

First -- there's no spare.. It's "run-flat" technology... BMW makes the claim that it's for safety, but when PRESSED as to why they chose this inferior design, they admit it was about saving 32 lbs of weight to INCREASE the EPA/EU ratings... No spare, no jack, no tools... BMW's EDICT (not advice) is --- IF YOU GET A FLAT -- YOU MUST JUNK the tire... Not many tire shops will attempt repairs of run flats because of legal liability and VIOLATING a "manufacturer recommendation"...

Not only are you supposed to JUNK the tire if itt's flat, these tires cost almost twice as much and LAST half as long... And you CAN give the finger to BMW and repair them yourself OR have a few tire shops mount STANDARD tires on the vehicle which perform and handle better.. But there's NO WHERE TO STORE a spare and you COULD violate warranty with BMW...

Secondly -- I looked at the Land Rover DIscovery which is a DANG fine vehicle, with the exception of the price and absolutely NO visibility out of the back... Got to talking about THEIR "eco considerations"... Jaguar/Land Rover are still living in the luxury car world even tho they are now owned by India's Ta Ta motors which makes tiny little bugs that East Germans would have killed each other over...

So THEIR considerations to meet increasingly high EPA standards was to go to "multi-layered" aluminum construction.. ( I had asked if the panels were easily replaceable for crash damage).. This is a fairly hi tech process which DOES result in fairly good strength, where the LAYERING for strength VARIES at different points of the body... Which SOUNDS cool but AGAIN --- when it comes to crash damage -- I got another "JUST JUNK THE CAR" answer....

Because the panels are INTERCONNECTED and pulling them creates MORE damage during the repair...

THANKS SO MUCH EPA for making stupid manipulative sales people the LEAST of my worries in buying a new car... And for filling our dumps and salvage yards with rubber and perfectly FINE cars.....

 

[OldLady]

Been driving the same BMW station wagon for 18 years... Still runs good, but parts are hard to get for "almost collector" cars.. It has only 150,000 miles on it and my super hero independent BMW mechanic says he could KEEP it running for another 3 or 4 years... VERY little major maintenance over those 18 years...

SO -- I've been car shopping.. ALMOST made a deal last night on used BMW crossover.. But I learned a couple things...

First -- there's no spare.. It's "run-flat" technology... BMW makes the claim that it's for safety, but when PRESSED as to why they chose this inferior design, they admit it was about saving 32 lbs of weight to INCREASE the EPA/EU ratings... No spare, no jack, no tools... BMW's EDICT (not advice) is --- IF YOU GET A FLAT -- YOU MUST JUNK the tire... Not many tire shops will attempt repairs of run flats because of legal liability and VIOLATING a "manufacturer recommendation"...

Not only are you supposed to JUNK the tire if itt's flat, these tires cost almost twice as much and LAST half as long... And you CAN give the finger to BMW and repair them yourself OR have a few tire shops mount STANDARD tires on the vehicle which perform and handle better.. But there's NO WHERE TO STORE a spare and you COULD violate warranty with BMW...

Secondly -- I looked at the Land Rover DIscovery which is a DANG fine vehicle, with the exception of the price and absolutely NO visibility out of the back... Got to talking about THEIR "eco considerations"... Jaguar/Land Rover are still living in the luxury car world even tho they are now owned by India's Ta Ta motors which makes tiny little bugs that East Germans would have killed each other over...

So THEIR considerations to meet increasingly high EPA standards was to go to "multi-layered" aluminum construction.. ( I had asked if the panels were easily replaceable for crash damage).. This is a fairly hi tech process which DOES result in fairly good strength, where the LAYERING for strength VARIES at different points of the body... Which SOUNDS cool but AGAIN --- when it comes to crash damage -- I got another "JUST JUNK THE CAR" answer....

Because the panels are INTERCONNECTED and pulling them creates MORE damage during the repair...

THANKS SO MUCH EPA for making stupid manipulative sales people the LEAST of my worries in buying a new car... And for filling our dumps and salvage yards with rubber and perfectly FINE cars.....

I've had a lot of luck with Subarus the last twenty years. So has most everyone I've talked to. They're not that expensive (compared to BMW's). Have you ever looked at them or do they have to be high end foreign cars?

 

[flacaltenn]

Heck.. I forgot the 3rd thing to NOT thank the EPA for... Most all vehicles built after 2013 or so include multiple selections of driving modes.. Some of these are great engineering and are a plus.. But the "ECO" mode that's included on most on them is also "an enviro nighmare"...

This is when the car engine shuts down every time you stop... This adds incredible wear and tear on the engine, electrical systems, air conditioning, and other systems.. I'd probably never use it..

But I tried to research whether the ratings on BMW crossover were BASED on "eco mode" and failed.. The EPA guidance is SO disjointed and non-transparent on this that you virtually need a VIN number to find OUT if and HOW the EPA uses these available modes to determine the 2 simple ass numbers they slap on the dealer sticker..

It varies according to whether car DEFAULTS to ECO mode on start-up or other screwy considerations..

So my 18 yr old "NON enviro friendly" BMW wagon STILL gets about 24/31 on mileage.. The 2017 crossover I was about to buy is "rated" 28/33... And if ECO MOD is part of the consideration on THAT car -- I'd be paying MORE for gas and BURNING more than on my 18 yr old lovely car...

Don't get me started on the phony ass "fleet ratings" that the EPA uses to approve vehicles... Another highly NON transparent "feel good" bureaucratic victory over NOTHING....

 

[flacaltenn]

Been driving the same BMW station wagon for 18 years... Still runs good, but parts are hard to get for "almost collector" cars.. It has only 150,000 miles on it and my super hero independent BMW mechanic says he could KEEP it running for another 3 or 4 years... VERY little major maintenance over those 18 years...

SO -- I've been car shopping.. ALMOST made a deal last night on used BMW crossover.. But I learned a couple things...

First -- there's no spare.. It's "run-flat" technology... BMW makes the claim that it's for safety, but when PRESSED as to why they chose this inferior design, they admit it was about saving 32 lbs of weight to INCREASE the EPA/EU ratings... No spare, no jack, no tools... BMW's EDICT (not advice) is --- IF YOU GET A FLAT -- YOU MUST JUNK the tire... Not many tire shops will attempt repairs of run flats because of legal liability and VIOLATING a "manufacturer recommendation"...

Not only are you supposed to JUNK the tire if itt's flat, these tires cost almost twice as much and LAST half as long... And you CAN give the finger to BMW and repair them yourself OR have a few tire shops mount STANDARD tires on the vehicle which perform and handle better.. But there's NO WHERE TO STORE a spare and you COULD violate warranty with BMW...

Secondly -- I looked at the Land Rover DIscovery which is a DANG fine vehicle, with the exception of the price and absolutely NO visibility out of the back... Got to talking about THEIR "eco considerations"... Jaguar/Land Rover are still living in the luxury car world even tho they are now owned by India's Ta Ta motors which makes tiny little bugs that East Germans would have killed each other over...

So THEIR considerations to meet increasingly high EPA standards was to go to "multi-layered" aluminum construction.. ( I had asked if the panels were easily replaceable for crash damage).. This is a fairly hi tech process which DOES result in fairly good strength, where the LAYERING for strength VARIES at different points of the body... Which SOUNDS cool but AGAIN --- when it comes to crash damage -- I got another "JUST JUNK THE CAR" answer....

Because the panels are INTERCONNECTED and pulling them creates MORE damage during the repair...

THANKS SO MUCH EPA for making stupid manipulative sales people the LEAST of my worries in buying a new car... And for filling our dumps and salvage yards with rubber and perfectly FINE cars.....

I've had a lot of luck with Subarus the last twenty years. So has most everyone I've talked to. They're not that expensive (compared to BMW's). Have you ever looked at them or do they have to be high end foreign cars?

Yeah.. I like them.. And they have a reputation for reliability.. It may be one of the choices I'm left with.. More "dog space", smaller "step in" height for my 87 yr old MiL, and more like the sedan ride than any of these "eco friendly" SUVs or crossovers...

Although there's only 1 model (I think) that is NOT built on a SUV (truck) chassis....

Mind you, in Hillbilly Hollywood 92% of the vehicles are either HUGE ass SUVs or pick-ups or vans. Not making this up.. Verified from the service people and dealers I've talked to, so local supply is limited...

 

[Natural Citizen]

I ditched all the EPA mandated crap on my cars. I mean it all fell off, sorry. Rusted.

As far as your BMW goes, I dunno if you meant it's 18 years old or that it's older than that and you've just had it for 18 years but it should be able to last longer than that.

Agreed about run flats. I wouldn't own them personally.

I have a thirty year old Chevy that runs great. I'll likely get another two hundred thousand miles out of it before I swap motors.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The better half's Mercedes is 25 years old and has over two hundred thousand miles on it. Still looks very, very nice. Just needs a little TLC. She's gotta get out and push it once in a while to get it moving when reverse doesn't kick in, but it's good for her.

Maybe look into one of those.

 

[DrLove]

A new Beamer (any German car) will nickel and dime the crap out of ya. They don't make 'em like they did 20-30 years ago. I bought a Mid-Life Crisis Mobile in 2007. Mercedes SLK 350 with the retractable hardtop. Kept it for 10 years and LOVED driving it on scenic, curvy two lane roads.

But I had power seat, seatbelt warning light and a number of other irritating issues. Routine services with no add ons were 250-300 bucks.

I advocate Japanese brands made in the US. They make a quality product that won't drive ya to the poorhouse.

 

[RodISHI]

Been driving the same BMW station wagon for 18 years... Still runs good, but parts are hard to get for "almost collector" cars.. It has only 150,000 miles on it and my super hero independent BMW mechanic says he could KEEP it running for another 3 or 4 years... VERY little major maintenance over those 18 years...

SO -- I've been car shopping.. ALMOST made a deal last night on used BMW crossover.. But I learned a couple things...

First -- there's no spare.. It's "run-flat" technology... BMW makes the claim that it's for safety, but when PRESSED as to why they chose this inferior design, they admit it was about saving 32 lbs of weight to INCREASE the EPA/EU ratings... No spare, no jack, no tools... BMW's EDICT (not advice) is --- IF YOU GET A FLAT -- YOU MUST JUNK the tire... Not many tire shops will attempt repairs of run flats because of legal liability and VIOLATING a "manufacturer recommendation"...

Not only are you supposed to JUNK the tire if itt's flat, these tires cost almost twice as much and LAST half as long... And you CAN give the finger to BMW and repair them yourself OR have a few tire shops mount STANDARD tires on the vehicle which perform and handle better.. But there's NO WHERE TO STORE a spare and you COULD violate warranty with BMW...

Secondly -- I looked at the Land Rover DIscovery which is a DANG fine vehicle, with the exception of the price and absolutely NO visibility out of the back... Got to talking about THEIR "eco considerations"... Jaguar/Land Rover are still living in the luxury car world even tho they are now owned by India's Ta Ta motors which makes tiny little bugs that East Germans would have killed each other over...

So THEIR considerations to meet increasingly high EPA standards was to go to "multi-layered" aluminum construction.. ( I had asked if the panels were easily replaceable for crash damage).. This is a fairly hi tech process which DOES result in fairly good strength, where the LAYERING for strength VARIES at different points of the body... Which SOUNDS cool but AGAIN --- when it comes to crash damage -- I got another "JUST JUNK THE CAR" answer....

Because the panels are INTERCONNECTED and pulling them creates MORE damage during the repair...

THANKS SO MUCH EPA for making stupid manipulative sales people the LEAST of my worries in buying a new car... And for filling our dumps and salvage yards with rubber and perfectly FINE cars.....

Thank sellout Ralph Nader and a few money grubbing corps along w/ congressional BS for the car issues and the excessive cost.Don't get me wrong business and technology is a good thing if worked out properly but we have unconscionable people putting tribulations on people that there is no call for.

I could have bought a fairly decent 104,000 mile BMW last week for $900.00. One window regulator needed repaired. Cost over $1,800.00 to send it in to a shop. I considered it and decided nah, I'll just stick with one like my old buick with less than 100,000 on it for half of that as at least I can just swap parts off my deer damaged one if needed.

And who is so damn lazy that they can't check the air pressure in their tires or have someone do it for them. Those cost several hundred dollars each to fix and a lot of tire shops have inexperienced people working in them that end up damaging those too.

 

[petro]

Whole host of 5.7 hemi engines with failed lifters and unclear if anything to do with MDS system that shutdown 4 cylinders during cruising speeds. Lifters fail grinding cam shaft.
Happened to my Jeep at 150K.
Thank god it was covered under lifetime powertrain.
All to save a couple miles per gallon. I bought an 8 cylinder dammit. Anyone think I give a damn about mileage?

 

[flacaltenn]

I ditched all the EPA mandated crap on my cars. I mean it all fell off, sorry. Rusted.

As far as your BMW goes, I dunno if you meant it's 18 years old or that it's older than that and you've just had it for 18 years but it should be able to last longer than that.

Agreed about run flats. I wouldn't own them personally.

I have a thirty year old Chevy that runs great. I'll likely get another two hundred thousand miles out of it before I swap motors.

I bought my 18 yr car as a 2000 BMW wagon that had come off lease in about 2002 or 2003... If I had been running it in "ECO" mode, it would be a rust pile in a junk yard about 10 years ago... Instead, it's still reliable and VERY dependable.

Run flats are creation of a confluence between lawyers, the EPA and desperate German engineers trying to give a cross-over a ride like a BMW sedan.. They ALL FAILED... When I discovered the history here, there's lawsuits, nightmares and most EVERYONE swearing they'll never buy another "run flat" car again...

 

[flacaltenn]

The better half's Mercedes is 25 years old and has over two hundred thousand miles on it. Still looks very, very nice. Just needs a little TLC. She's gotta get out and push it once in a while to get it moving when reverse doesn't kick in, but it's good for her.

Maybe look into one of those.

I'm not hung up on "luxury cars".. It just worked out great for me. But the EPA is covering up a LOT of "due dilligience" to the consumer about the eco improvements and their numbers.. That really gripes me.. Most folks look at the EPA seal on those 2 mileage numbers and TRUST IT.. WITHOUT ever asking "what mode" or what tires or what gas those numbers used...

It's actually a bunch of hooey and false confidence in single stupid numbers... Like a lot of other environmental issues that are far more complex than say "the Global Mean Average Surface Temperature" of the Earth.. But THAT is what the public buys and understands..

 

[petro]

I ditched all the EPA mandated crap on my cars. I mean it all fell off, sorry. Rusted.

As far as your BMW goes, I dunno if you meant it's 18 years old or that it's older than that and you've just had it for 18 years but it should be able to last longer than that.

Agreed about run flats. I wouldn't own them personally.

I have a thirty year old Chevy that runs great. I'll likely get another two hundred thousand miles out of it before I swap motors.

I bought my 18 yr car as a 2000 BMW wagon that had come off lease in about 2002 or 2003... If I had been running it in "ECO" mode, it would be a rust pile in a junk yard about 10 years ago... Instead, it's still reliable and VERY dependable.

Run flats are creation of a confluence between lawyers, the EPA and desperate German engineers trying to give a cross-over a ride like a BMW sedan.. They ALL FAILED... When I discovered the history here, there's lawsuits, nightmares and most EVERYONE swearing they'll never buy another "run flat" car again...

I don't have run flats, but like every new vehicle has mandated tire pressure sensors that have a battery life of about 8 years.
Now have one failing giving readings from 0-245 psi and everything in between.
Sensors are not expensive, about 20 bucks. But still have to have someone remove tire from rim to install a sensor, add four wheels and between parts and labor could run a couple hundred.
Stupid as I am capable of checking my tires.

As far as that eco mode you speak of. How many starters and sensors do those cars go through?
Hybrids shut down and reengage engine a second after gas applied.
Just seems like more problems.
Every car has multiple recalls and programming errors and are ridiculous to repair.
The goal is to make driving so expensive we all abandon our cars and take mass transit.

 

[RodISHI]

The better half's Mercedes is 25 years old and has over two hundred thousand miles on it. Still looks very, very nice. Just needs a little TLC. She's gotta get out and push it once in a while to get it moving when reverse doesn't kick in, but it's good for her.

Maybe look into one of those.

I'm not hung up on "luxury cars".. It just worked out great for me. But the EPA is covering up a LOT of "due dilligience" to the consumer about the eco improvements and their numbers.. That really gripes me.. Most folks look at the EPA seal on those 2 mileage numbers and TRUST IT.. WITHOUT ever asking "what mode" or what tires or what gas those numbers used...

It's actually a bunch of hooey and false confidence in single stupid numbers... Like a lot of other environmental issues that are far more complex than say "the Global Mean Average Surface Temperature" of the Earth.. But THAT is what the public buys and understands..

And ethanol is another BS saver. Every small engine is destroyed by it and my van used to suck almost twice as much gas using it.

 

[flacaltenn]

I ditched all the EPA mandated crap on my cars. I mean it all fell off, sorry. Rusted.

As far as your BMW goes, I dunno if you meant it's 18 years old or that it's older than that and you've just had it for 18 years but it should be able to last longer than that.

Agreed about run flats. I wouldn't own them personally.

I have a thirty year old Chevy that runs great. I'll likely get another two hundred thousand miles out of it before I swap motors.

I bought my 18 yr car as a 2000 BMW wagon that had come off lease in about 2002 or 2003... If I had been running it in "ECO" mode, it would be a rust pile in a junk yard about 10 years ago... Instead, it's still reliable and VERY dependable.

Run flats are creation of a confluence between lawyers, the EPA and desperate German engineers trying to give a cross-over a ride like a BMW sedan.. They ALL FAILED... When I discovered the history here, there's lawsuits, nightmares and most EVERYONE swearing they'll never buy another "run flat" car again...

I don't have run flats, but like every new vehicle has mandated tire pressure sensors that have a battery life of about 8 years.
Now have one failing giving readings from 0-245 psi and everything in between.
Sensors are not expensive, about 20 bucks. But still have to have someone remove tire from rim to install a sensor, add four wheels and between parts and labor could run a couple hundred.
Stupid as I am capable of checking my tires.

As far as that eco mode you speak of. How many starters and sensors do those cars go through?
Hybrids shut down and reengage engine a second after gas applied.
Just seems like more problems.
Every car has multiple recalls and programming errors and are ridiculous to repair.
The goal is to make driving so expensive we all abandon our cars and take mass transit.

Tire pressure readings are GREAT engineering.. In fact, if you ignore the car and tire manufacturing warnings and edicts and replace "run flats" with normal tires, these sensors don't know the diff and still work... I'll take the hit of replacing a wheel sensor once in awhile...

The ECO mode is a reliability nightmare.. On HYBRIDS, it's not a huge problem because of the battery buffering and the electric wheel drive.. You're not "shutting down" the primary source of power or the motors..

But on GAS vehicles, the wear and tear potential of shutting down at every stop is a nightmare... At NIGHT with lights, radio and heat or air running, you're taxing the electrical regulation and the whimpy battery.. Driving in really extreme temps with all that crankcase temp cycling is MURDER on every rotating device in the engine compartment.. And automatically turning off an air conditioner that often is gonna kill it..

Great point about programming errors.. Because all this "savings" makes "changing the ride" very complicated for the different modes... Like they change BRAKING, ACCELERATION, and other things you think that YOU control in these modes.

Bottom line is -- if your EPA rating uses ECO mode as a primary means of getting their numbers and you turn it OFF -- you won't KNOW what the mileage will be.. The EPA is making this MORE OBSCURE by not rating all these modes separately.... AND -- IF you RELY on ECO mode in a gas model, it's going to the junk yard YEARS SOONER than it should....