Tesla Bankruptcy Looms!

[elektra]

I haven't bought an electric car yet because they don't make sense economically or length-of-trip-wise, for where I live. It'll take another decade or two for them to get it all right. But they are for sure on the right path. They are working on car paint that acts as a solar panel, which for a lot of people, will be enough, ex: drive to work, leave it outside all day, drive home..

I am building a better bridge, it will be ready next year, you want to buy it?

 

[elektra]

What? What difference does it make as to whether the tow truck is a diesel, gas powered, or an EV? Given what Tesla and others, including Cummins, are doing, in a decade there is a good chance it would be an EV.

What difference does it make? If you have to ask that question you will never understand the answer. Of course you have proven yourself to be indifferent to the facts so there is no reason to answer your question. As in your reply, your answer will be the same to anything I post, either an insult or another belief of what might happen if we only spend $2 trillion dollars a year for the next 30 years (ceres.org and the eia).

 

[Old Rocks]

Notable Statistics
In 2016, the United States solar market produced these key figures:

• The U.S. solar market nearly doubled its capacity in 2016 compared to results from 2015.
• Solar ranked as the #1 source of new electric generating capacity additions.
• Non-residential PV was up 49% from 2015.
• For Q2 2017, U.S. solar added 2.4 GW of capacity, making it the second-largest second quarter in history.

The Emerging United States Solar Market | Seeking Alpha

As the demand for electricity grows with the sale of more and more EV's, you will see more individual households installing residential PV solar in 5 kw and 10 kw packages in the US. That will take care of some of the demand. At the same time, I think that we are going to see and explosion of PV mounted on the roofs of warehouses, malls, industrial, and commercial businesses. A source of income for the businesses, and a source of generation for the utilities for which they do not have to pay the maintenance or installation bill.

How well is that going to work now that the massive Obama administration subsidies are gone ?

Very well, because, even without the subsidies, solar and wind are now cheaper even than dirty coal.

 

[Old Rocks]

People are already experimenting with things like car paint that acts like a solar panel..

It’ll never fly becouse effective area will not be more than two-three square meters, and if the paint has an efficiency of 30% (which is very much), then the cars will have "the installed power of solar charging" 600 -900Wh

Sure, the math doesn't add up now, but they're working on it, not just complaining like you folks here.

I agree and I "don't mind" an electric vehicle, Tesla or renewable energy sources, I'm just trying to say that an electric car isn't a threat to the "oil reserves".

24% is the theoretical maximum efficiency for solar modules. This should increase as technology improves, but over the last 30 years it hasn't. My system (which I grant you is ancient) only produces around 11% efficiency, and that on a good day.

Again Mr. Westwall demonstrates his ignorance, or intent to lie. Max efficiency for a silicon single junction panel is about 30%

Solar Efficiency Limits

Junctions & Band Gaps page. The best modern production silicon cell efficiency is 24% at the cell level and 20% at the module level as reported by SunPower in March of, 2012. In a laboratory, the record solar cell efficiency is held by the University Of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia at 25%.

There are a number of assumptions associated with the SQ Limit that restrict its general applicability to all types of solar cells. Although there are numerous programs underway to find ways around the SQ Limit, it is still applicable to 99.9% of the solar cells on the market today.

The earliest and most frequent work around to the SQ Limit has been the use of multiple p/n junctions, each one tuned to a different frequency of the solar spectrum. Since sunlight will only react strongly with band gaps roughly the same width as their wavelength, the top layers are made very thin so they are almost transparent to longer wavelengths. This allows the junctions to be stacked, with the layers capturing the shortest wavelengths on top, and the longer wavelength photons passing through them to the lower layers.

The example of a multi-junction cell on the left has a top cell of gallium indium phosphide, then a "tunnel diode junction", and a bottom cell of gallium arsenide. The tunnel junction allows the electrons to flow between the cells and keeps the electric fields of the two cells separate. Most of today's research in multi-junction cells focuses on gallium arsenide as one of the component cells as it has a very desirable band gap. Performing a calculation using the SQ methodology; a two-layer cell can reach a maximum theoretical efficiency of 42% and three-layer cells 49%. The record for a multi-junction cell is held by the University Of New South Wales (UNSW) in Sydney, Australia at 43% using a five cell tandem approach. However, the UNSW tandem cell is very expensive. In addition to the cost issue, there are other constraints that make the tandem cells complex. For example, all the layers must be lattice compatible with one another in their crystalline structure and the currents from each individual cell must match the other cells. Multi-junction cells are commercially used in only special applications because their expense currently outweighs any efficiency improvement. At the moment they are used in space where weight is most important and in concentrated PV systems where the sunlight is focused on a very small cell area requiring only small amounts of semiconductors per cell.

Multi-junction cells too expensive and difficult to manufacture at present, but a 43% efficient cell would definitely be a game changer.

 

[Old Rocks]

Republicans are desperate to keep the Middle East’s oil industry roaring

Not me I want to take advantage of our own resources but the left doesn't . Why do you lefties want us reliant on foreign oil ?
The US now has more oil than Saudi Arabia or Russia

Already knew that. Until we do away with oil, all those nutjobs in the Middle East get to fund terrorists with billions of dollars. Why do you want that to continue?

You seem to have missed something in my post, the important part where I state that we need to take advantage of our own resources. Electric cars are nowhere near as cost effective as internal combustion

Yeah, and once upon a time horse salesmen were telling people that engines were stupid.

What ? No one is saying that electric cars are stupid. For now they can't compare to a internal combustion engine.

Really? You mean your Cadillac can beat the Tesla in every department? LOL

 

[westwall]

People are already experimenting with things like car paint that acts like a solar panel..

It’ll never fly becouse effective area will not be more than two-three square meters, and if the paint has an efficiency of 30% (which is very much), then the cars will have "the installed power of solar charging" 600 -900Wh

Sure, the math doesn't add up now, but they're working on it, not just complaining like you folks here.

I agree and I "don't mind" an electric vehicle, Tesla or renewable energy sources, I'm just trying to say that an electric car isn't a threat to the "oil reserves".

24% is the theoretical maximum efficiency for solar modules. This should increase as technology improves, but over the last 30 years it hasn't. My system (which I grant you is ancient) only produces around 11% efficiency, and that on a good day.

Again Mr. Westwall demonstrates his ignorance, or intent to lie. Max efficiency for a silicon single junction panel is about 30%

Solar Efficiency Limits

Junctions & Band Gaps page. The best modern production silicon cell efficiency is 24% at the cell level and 20% at the module level as reported by SunPower in March of, 2012. In a laboratory, the record solar cell efficiency is held by the University Of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia at 25%.

There are a number of assumptions associated with the SQ Limit that restrict its general applicability to all types of solar cells. Although there are numerous programs underway to find ways around the SQ Limit, it is still applicable to 99.9% of the solar cells on the market today.

The earliest and most frequent work around to the SQ Limit has been the use of multiple p/n junctions, each one tuned to a different frequency of the solar spectrum. Since sunlight will only react strongly with band gaps roughly the same width as their wavelength, the top layers are made very thin so they are almost transparent to longer wavelengths. This allows the junctions to be stacked, with the layers capturing the shortest wavelengths on top, and the longer wavelength photons passing through them to the lower layers.

The example of a multi-junction cell on the left has a top cell of gallium indium phosphide, then a "tunnel diode junction", and a bottom cell of gallium arsenide. The tunnel junction allows the electrons to flow between the cells and keeps the electric fields of the two cells separate. Most of today's research in multi-junction cells focuses on gallium arsenide as one of the component cells as it has a very desirable band gap. Performing a calculation using the SQ methodology; a two-layer cell can reach a maximum theoretical efficiency of 42% and three-layer cells 49%. The record for a multi-junction cell is held by the University Of New South Wales (UNSW) in Sydney, Australia at 43% using a five cell tandem approach. However, the UNSW tandem cell is very expensive. In addition to the cost issue, there are other constraints that make the tandem cells complex. For example, all the layers must be lattice compatible with one another in their crystalline structure and the currents from each individual cell must match the other cells. Multi-junction cells are commercially used in only special applications because their expense currently outweighs any efficiency improvement. At the moment they are used in space where weight is most important and in concentrated PV systems where the sunlight is focused on a very small cell area requiring only small amounts of semiconductors per cell.

Multi-junction cells too expensive and difficult to manufacture at present, but a 43% efficient cell would definitely be a game changer.

So, where exactly did I lie? You toss that word out there so frequently yet it always comes down to you who is doing the fibbing. Be that as it may, my point still stands, the calculated max efficiency is 24%, the uni's results have not been checked by anyone else so that claim is still unconfirmed. I do agree that a multi junction cell would be cool as hell, but, once again there's that little detail called cost rearing its ugly head yet again.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hey dumbfuck, developing new technologies is not "devolving to the bronze age."

The stated goals of the green silly people, are unobtainable without a draconian cut in production on the part of the USA. This is based on what they want. It is not my fault that you're too ignorant to understand what their demands entail.

Khomeini and Al Baghdadi appreciate your war on new energies.

Yes, and all the billionaires running your life thank you for being so stupid as to demand that everyone switch over to horribly inefficient systems to enrich them, and help those assholes that you named by weakening this country. Great job, clown boy.

Yeah the terrorists all funded by oil are really thrilled that people are working on dropping oil

God your such a trash poster.

Terrorists funded by oil seek out weak people to attack. Renewables, as they are now, and for the moderate future, are losers. They can't compete with fossil fuels. Thus, a thinking person can figure out that switching over now, before they can compete is stupid, and will weaken us, which will enable those bastards to harm us more. In other words, moron, it is you who are the "trash poster".

You are divested from reality which is a common problem with morons, like you.

God, do you actually believe the drivel you posted?
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Electric Power Monthly
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Looks to me as if the renewables are doing very well by any measure. And how much coal do you see on that chart? LOL

 

[westwall]

The stated goals of the green silly people, are unobtainable without a draconian cut in production on the part of the USA. This is based on what they want. It is not my fault that you're too ignorant to understand what their demands entail.

Khomeini and Al Baghdadi appreciate your war on new energies.

Yes, and all the billionaires running your life thank you for being so stupid as to demand that everyone switch over to horribly inefficient systems to enrich them, and help those assholes that you named by weakening this country. Great job, clown boy.

Yeah the terrorists all funded by oil are really thrilled that people are working on dropping oil

God your such a trash poster.

Terrorists funded by oil seek out weak people to attack. Renewables, as they are now, and for the moderate future, are losers. They can't compete with fossil fuels. Thus, a thinking person can figure out that switching over now, before they can compete is stupid, and will weaken us, which will enable those bastards to harm us more. In other words, moron, it is you who are the "trash poster".

You are divested from reality which is a common problem with morons, like you.

God, do you actually believe the drivel you posted?
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Electric Power Monthly
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Looks to me as if the renewables are doing very well by any measure. And how much coal do you see on that chart? LOL

It's real easy to double your capacity when you begin with such a low number. Why do you exaggerate the impact? You got a personal investment you are desperate to protect?

 

[Old Rocks]

"So, where exactly did I lie? You toss that word out there so frequently yet it always comes down to you who is doing the fibbing. Be that as it may, my point still stands, the calculated max efficiency is 24%, the uni's results have not been checked by anyone else so that claim is still unconfirmed. I do agree that a multi junction cell would be cool as hell, but, once again there's that little detail called cost rearing its ugly head yet again."
Westwall

Solar Efficiency Limits

It was first calculated by William Shockley and Hans Queisser in 1961. A solar cell's energy conversion efficiency is the percentage of power converted from sunlight to electrical energy under "standard test conditions" (STC). The STC conditions approximate solar noon at the spring and autumn equinoxes in the continental United States with the surface of the solar cell aimed directly at the sun. The modern SQ Limit calculation is a maximum efficiency of 33% for any type of single junction solar cell. The original calculation by Shockley and Queisser was 30% for a silicon solar cell.


Quite a bit of difference between 24% and 30%.

 

[Old Rocks]

Khomeini and Al Baghdadi appreciate your war on new energies.

Yes, and all the billionaires running your life thank you for being so stupid as to demand that everyone switch over to horribly inefficient systems to enrich them, and help those assholes that you named by weakening this country. Great job, clown boy.

Yeah the terrorists all funded by oil are really thrilled that people are working on dropping oil

God your such a trash poster.

Terrorists funded by oil seek out weak people to attack. Renewables, as they are now, and for the moderate future, are losers. They can't compete with fossil fuels. Thus, a thinking person can figure out that switching over now, before they can compete is stupid, and will weaken us, which will enable those bastards to harm us more. In other words, moron, it is you who are the "trash poster".

You are divested from reality which is a common problem with morons, like you.

God, do you actually believe the drivel you posted?
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions

Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration, Electric Power Monthly
Solar, natural gas, wind make up most 2016 generation additions - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Looks to me as if the renewables are doing very well by any measure. And how much coal do you see on that chart? LOL

It's real easy to double your capacity when you begin with such a low number. Why do you exaggerate the impact? You got a personal investment you are desperate to protect?

LOL What a liar by deflection you are. Total numbers for installation in 2016. Solar 9.5 GW, Wind 6.8 GW That is a combined amount added of 16.3 GW. Throw natural gas and nuclear together, and you only get an added 9.1 GW. That is not talking about doubling capacity of any one source, but the amount of generation added by each source in 2016.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Oil Industry Needs Taxpayers To Prop Up Nearly Half Of Its New U.S. Drilling
A new study shows the oil companies’ addiction to government subsidies — the very thing used by fossil fuel advocates to criticize renewables.

Read^ then continue to weep like you just don't care.

 

[Viacheslav]

Viacheslav, we have an area hundreds of miles wide from Texas, through the mid-West to the Dakotas and Eastern Montana that has prime wind generation potential. Put in the grids, and we can easily supply that amount just with wind. Our Southwest and Texas has huge solar potential. All it takes is putting in a grid, and there is profit to be made, they will build the solar and turbines.

Without "buffer battery" its unreliable solution, because you can't guarantee a permanent electricity supply, in Russia we also have good solar and wind potential, but the problems are about the same. And we're talking about the next few years (where Tesla according to their plans will annually produce a million EV) and I doubt that at this time a "super battery" will be invented with a density of energy and cost as that of fossil fuels.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Like running out of gas?

"Winner" - bwahahaha!

I can walk to a station and get gas.

Yet you must run to be out of it. Go figure?

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Not me I want to take advantage of our own resouces but the left doesn't . Why do you lefties want us reliant on foreign oil ?
The US now has more oil than Saudi Arabia or Russia

Already knew that. Until we do away with oil, all those nutjobs in the Middle East get to fund terrorists with billions of dollars. Why do you want that to continue?

We don't, but the current level of technology for renewables means that we, the first world, would have to devolve to Bronze Age tech to meet the fantasy goals of the green silly people. That would make us easy pickings for those terrorists you claim to care so much about.

Hey dumbfuck, developing new technologies is not "devolving to the bronze age."

No its not, but forcing underperforming technology on the public just so a few can get super rich and feel warm and fuzzy isn't the way a modern society should act

God you ***** are always such victims

Let's keep doing it your way to keep your super rich heroes happy:

You seem to have a problem with selective cognition. As I've said more than once if we take advantage of our own resources the oil producers of the Middle East can go **** themselves. When electric cars become as affordable, reliable and have the range of an internal combustion car. I'll be the first to trade in any gas burner I may own, unless it's a classic then the eco-nuts can kiss my ass on that score.

 

[Grumblenuts]

As I've said more than once if we take advantage of our own resources the oil producers of the Middle East can go **** themselves.

1. Both here and there, the Sun shines for free.
2. Crude oil is stored, transported, and traded as a global commodity, vastly by multinational (stateless), zero tax paying corporations. There is no "our own". There exists only a tiny cadre of billionaires robbing us all blind, destroying the planet, and corrupting our govts into stupidly and endlessly warring with one another on their behalf... because they are psychotic... will simply never have enough... and we let them get away with it. Many of us even go way out our way to help them screw us. Go figure.

 

[westwall]

"So, where exactly did I lie? You toss that word out there so frequently yet it always comes down to you who is doing the fibbing. Be that as it may, my point still stands, the calculated max efficiency is 24%, the uni's results have not been checked by anyone else so that claim is still unconfirmed. I do agree that a multi junction cell would be cool as hell, but, once again there's that little detail called cost rearing its ugly head yet again."
Westwall

Solar Efficiency Limits

It was first calculated by William Shockley and Hans Queisser in 1961. A solar cell's energy conversion efficiency is the percentage of power converted from sunlight to electrical energy under "standard test conditions" (STC). The STC conditions approximate solar noon at the spring and autumn equinoxes in the continental United States with the surface of the solar cell aimed directly at the sun. The modern SQ Limit calculation is a maximum efficiency of 33% for any type of single junction solar cell. The original calculation by Shockley and Queisser was 30% for a silicon solar cell.


Quite a bit of difference between 24% and 30%.

Wow, I am a few years out of date. Not exactly a lie as when i was doing the research for my solar modules that was the number. Forgive me for not being as up to date as you wish. Far, far from an intentional lie clown boy.

 

[westwall]

As I've said more than once if we take advantage of our own resources the oil producers of the Middle East can go **** themselves.

1. Both here and there, the Sun shines for free.
2. Crude oil is stored, transported, and traded as a global commodity, vastly by multinational (stateless), zero tax paying corporations. There is no "our own". There exists only a tiny cadre of billionaires robbing us all blind, destroying the planet, and corrupting our govts into stupidly and endlessly warring with one another on their behalf... because they are psychotic... will simply never have enough... and we let them get away with it. Many of us even go way out our way to help them screw us. Go figure.

And if solar were the end all and be all you claim IT WOULD ALREADY BE THE DOMINANT ENERGY SOURCE ON THE PLANET.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

As I've said more than once if we take advantage of our own resources the oil producers of the Middle East can go **** themselves.

1. Both here and there, the Sun shines for free.
2. Crude oil is stored, transported, and traded as a global commodity, vastly by multinational (stateless), zero tax paying corporations. There is no "our own". There exists only a tiny cadre of billionaires robbing us all blind, destroying the planet, and corrupting our govts into stupidly and endlessly warring with one another on their behalf... because they are psychotic... will simply never have enough... and we let them get away with it. Many of us even go way out our way to help them screw us. Go figure.

Solar power for the time being does not have the efficiency or output that fossil fuels do. The sun doesn't shine 24/7 and storage capacity needs serious improvement, and solar will never be able to touch nuclear.

I'm curious how are the Billionaires robbing you or anyone else.

 

[Grumblenuts]

And if solar were the end all and be all you claim

What did I claim now? Got a quote? Any clothes on at all? No?.. SHOCKING!

 

[HenryBHough]

If you're 3 years old...OK, maybe 12...and plan to stay in the house YOU personally own right now for the next 15 or so years then, yeah, you might break even on solar. But if you wait much longer to dump the house on the market you'll have to replace those spendy batteries to get a sale moving and then you might as well settle in for another decade or so.