Sure Cindy, It's Only Been About Your Son - Let's Keep That 15 Minutes Going....

ProudDem said:
I probably should have used a better word. I do not think that Bush intentionally lied, but I believe the administration exaggerated evidence. No one can convince me otherwise, so I would recommend no one trying to prove that there was no exaggeration of the facts.

Well, then there is no point showing you what's freaking obvious to everyone else. Because you have admitted that you are blindly going to ignore it. So if you have such a closed mind about it, why bother?



What, the fact that he killed his own people? Am I supposed to care about that? I don't, as cold as that sounds. Iraq was not a threat to us, and they had made no threat. In my heart, I believe that Bush went in to finish the job his dad did not. Plus, Saddam Hussein had attempted to assassinate his father. I would hate anyone who attempted to do that to my father. But that was his battle--not the United States's battle.

It was the United States battle. Because we have the power to liberate people. With great power comes great responsibility. We shouldn't sit on our ass drinking french wine acting like we are better than the world and hoping that the people who want us dead will decide we are nice enough guys and leave it alone. If we want peace in our times we have to go out there to fight for it. Peace isn't the absense of war. It's the existance of freedom because of the defeat of evil in the world.

The war started with September 11th, which was Al Qaeda. Don't even tell me that because Al Qaeda is in Iraq NOW that we're fighting the war on terrorism. Sorry, but Al Qaeda wasn't there prior to our invasion. Our invasion of Iraq was based upon there being WMDs, which could be used against us. Remember Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Cheney all telling us that there could be a mushroom cloud? Yeah, right. The reasons for our invading Iraq have changed since we got there. How repulsive.

You seem to have this odd idea of what the war on terror is. It's the not war against Osama. It's not the war against Al Queda. It is the war on terror. It doesn't matter what affiliation they have. Besides, your facts are wrong. Al Queda was present in Iraq before we liberated the nation. Read the 911 commission report. Saddam was supporting Al Queda and other terrorist groups.

The WMDs were only one of multiple reasons that we went into Iraq. All you have to do is read the States of the Union Address of 2003 before we went in. WMDs is only one. The reasons haven't changed, even now they are exactly the same as before.

Lastly, for the last time neither the President nor his advisors warned of a mushroom cloud. The only people I heard mention mushroom clouds were Kerry and Edwards. The guys you probably voted for. The same ones who wanted to give nuclear materials to Iran. Freaking idiots.

See above. Maybe there were terrorists in Iraq, but had those terrorists attacked us or threatened to attack us? NOPE.

You are not this dense are you??? When we are fighting a war on terrorism it doesn't matter if the terrorists have attacked us, we are going to kill them. The ones that attack us arent going to be around to retaliate against because they are going to blow themselves up in any attack they make. So why on earth would we be waiting for them to attack us?

Whatever.

Glad to see you are conceding.
 
Lastly, for the last time neither the President nor his advisors warned of a mushroom cloud. The only people I heard mention mushroom clouds were Kerry and Edwards. The guys you probably voted for. The same ones who wanted to give nuclear materials to Iran. Freaking idiots.
quote from Avatar

Are you kidding me? Please see the following website, one of which is the White House's website. Sheesh. Get your facts straight before you assert them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

applicable paragraph: Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. As President Kennedy said in October of 1962, "Neither the United States of America, nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nations security to constitute maximum peril."

This was Bush outlining Iraq's threat to us.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/

applicable paragraph: Rice acknowledged that "there will always be some uncertainty" in determining how close Iraq may be to obtaining a nuclear weapon but said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39500-2003Aug9

applicable section: 'A Mushroom Cloud'

The day after publication of Card's marketing remark, Bush and nearly all his top advisers began to talk about the dangers of an Iraqi nuclear bomb.

Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair conferred at Camp David that Saturday, Sept. 7, and they each described alarming new evidence. Blair said proof that the threat is real came in "the report from the International Atomic Energy Agency this morning, showing what has been going on at the former nuclear weapon sites." Bush said "a report came out of the . . . IAEA, that they [Iraqis] were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need."

There was no new IAEA report. Blair appeared to be referring to news reports describing curiosity at the nuclear agency about repairs at sites of Iraq's former nuclear program. Bush cast as present evidence the contents of a report from 1996, updated in 1998 and 1999. In those accounts, the IAEA described the history of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program that arms inspectors had systematically destroyed.

A White House spokesman later acknowledged that Bush "was imprecise" on his source but stood by the crux of his charge. The spokesman said U.S. intelligence, not the IAEA, had given Bush his information.

That, too, was garbled at best. U.S. intelligence reports had only one scenario for an Iraqi bomb in six months to a year, premised on Iraq's immediate acquisition of enough plutonium or enriched uranium from a foreign source.

"That is just about the same thing as saying that if Iraq gets a bomb, it will have a bomb," said a U.S. intelligence analyst who covers the subject. "We had no evidence for it."

Two debuts took place on Sept. 8: the aluminum tubes and the image of "a mushroom cloud." A Sunday New York Times story quoted anonymous officials as saying the "diameter, thickness and other technical specifications" of the tubes -- precisely the grounds for skepticism among nuclear enrichment experts -- showed that they were "intended as components of centrifuges."

No one knows when Iraq will have its weapon, the story said, but "the first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

Top officials made the rounds of Sunday talk shows that morning. Rice's remarks echoed the newspaper story. She said on CNN's "Late Edition" that Hussein was "actively pursuing a nuclear weapon" and that the tubes -- described repeatedly in U.S. intelligence reports as "dual-use" items -- were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

"There will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons," Rice added, "but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

Anna Perez, a communications adviser to Rice, said Rice did not come looking for an opportunity to say that. "There was nothing in her mind that said, 'I have to push the nuclear issue,' " Perez said, "but Wolf [Blitzer] asked the question."

Powell, a confidant said, found it "disquieting when people say things like mushroom clouds." But he contributed in other ways to the message. When asked about biological and chemical arms on Fox News, he brought up nuclear weapons and cited the "specialized aluminum tubing" that "we saw in reporting just this morning."

Cheney, on NBC's "Meet the Press," also mentioned the tubes and said "increasingly, we believe the United States will become the target" of an Iraqi nuclear weapon. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, on CBS's "Face the Nation," asked listeners to "imagine a September 11th with weapons of mass destruction," which would kill "tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children."

Bush evoked the mushroom cloud on Oct. 7, and on Nov. 12 Gen. Tommy R. Franks, chief of U.S. Central Command, said inaction might bring "the sight of the first mushroom cloud on one of the major population centers on this planet."
 
ProudDem said:
Lastly, for the last time neither the President nor his advisors warned of a mushroom cloud. The only people I heard mention mushroom clouds were Kerry and Edwards. The guys you probably voted for. The same ones who wanted to give nuclear materials to Iran. Freaking idiots.

Are you kidding me? Please see the following website, one of which is the White House's website. Sheesh. Get your facts straight before you assert them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

applicable paragraph: Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. As President Kennedy said in October of 1962, "Neither the United States of America, nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nations security to constitute maximum peril."

This was Bush outlining Iraq's threat to us.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/

applicable paragraph: Rice acknowledged that "there will always be some uncertainty" in determining how close Iraq may be to obtaining a nuclear weapon but said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39500-2003Aug9

applicable section: 'A Mushroom Cloud'

The day after publication of Card's marketing remark, Bush and nearly all his top advisers began to talk about the dangers of an Iraqi nuclear bomb.

Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair conferred at Camp David that Saturday, Sept. 7, and they each described alarming new evidence. Blair said proof that the threat is real came in "the report from the International Atomic Energy Agency this morning, showing what has been going on at the former nuclear weapon sites." Bush said "a report came out of the . . . IAEA, that they [Iraqis] were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need."

There was no new IAEA report. Blair appeared to be referring to news reports describing curiosity at the nuclear agency about repairs at sites of Iraq's former nuclear program. Bush cast as present evidence the contents of a report from 1996, updated in 1998 and 1999. In those accounts, the IAEA described the history of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program that arms inspectors had systematically destroyed.

A White House spokesman later acknowledged that Bush "was imprecise" on his source but stood by the crux of his charge. The spokesman said U.S. intelligence, not the IAEA, had given Bush his information.

That, too, was garbled at best. U.S. intelligence reports had only one scenario for an Iraqi bomb in six months to a year, premised on Iraq's immediate acquisition of enough plutonium or enriched uranium from a foreign source.

"That is just about the same thing as saying that if Iraq gets a bomb, it will have a bomb," said a U.S. intelligence analyst who covers the subject. "We had no evidence for it."

Two debuts took place on Sept. 8: the aluminum tubes and the image of "a mushroom cloud." A Sunday New York Times story quoted anonymous officials as saying the "diameter, thickness and other technical specifications" of the tubes -- precisely the grounds for skepticism among nuclear enrichment experts -- showed that they were "intended as components of centrifuges."

No one knows when Iraq will have its weapon, the story said, but "the first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

Top officials made the rounds of Sunday talk shows that morning. Rice's remarks echoed the newspaper story. She said on CNN's "Late Edition" that Hussein was "actively pursuing a nuclear weapon" and that the tubes -- described repeatedly in U.S. intelligence reports as "dual-use" items -- were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

"There will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons," Rice added, "but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

Anna Perez, a communications adviser to Rice, said Rice did not come looking for an opportunity to say that. "There was nothing in her mind that said, 'I have to push the nuclear issue,' " Perez said, "but Wolf [Blitzer] asked the question."

Powell, a confidant said, found it "disquieting when people say things like mushroom clouds." But he contributed in other ways to the message. When asked about biological and chemical arms on Fox News, he brought up nuclear weapons and cited the "specialized aluminum tubing" that "we saw in reporting just this morning."

Cheney, on NBC's "Meet the Press," also mentioned the tubes and said "increasingly, we believe the United States will become the target" of an Iraqi nuclear weapon. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, on CBS's "Face the Nation," asked listeners to "imagine a September 11th with weapons of mass destruction," which would kill "tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children."

Bush evoked the mushroom cloud on Oct. 7, and on Nov. 12 Gen. Tommy R. Franks, chief of U.S. Central Command, said inaction might bring "the sight of the first mushroom cloud on one of the major population centers on this planet."

Bush will be our president for 3 more years--our troops are still in Iraq---the gulf coast is gone--al queda is still making plans to terrorize America and it's allies.
Do plan to ***** until 2008 and just make everything a little bit harder for America or would you like to try to be part of the solution?
 
ProudDem said:
Neither you nor I can prove whether Bush lied or not, unless you're able to get into his head and know what he was thinking when he told us how we could be hit with a mushroom cloud). I don't think he lied, but I believe he exaggerated facts, which is essentially just as bad. Regardless, this war has caused substantial losses for us and for Iraqis.

I see. Presumed guilty until proven innocent, huh?

So are you saying that I have sympathy because of some burst bubble? I am fully aware that the military is an all-volunteer military. However, our president is supposed to use his right as Commander in Chief in a responsible manner. He did not send enough troops in there to begin with, and while soldiers are dying in Iraq, at a dinner at the White House, he thinks he's cute by showing slides of him looking under his desk for the WMDs. He has the biggest Inaugration celebration that any president has had while soldiers are dying. Wow, he's a great guy.

He has abused his right as Commander in Chief, and for that, I will never forgive him. And just because someone volunteers for to do something doesn't mean that we can't be disgusted when someone abuses that volunteer's willingness to serve his country.

I see. So sense of humor allowed for the PC liberals. Unless of course, it's a slam against Bush. THEN, it's funny.

He has abused nothing, and your argument is less-convincing than most. All I'm really seeing is "I don't like Bush because I'm a Dem and the DNC told me not to," followed by some lame reasoning.
 
ProudDem said:
Lastly, for the last time neither the President nor his advisors warned of a mushroom cloud. The only people I heard mention mushroom clouds were Kerry and Edwards. The guys you probably voted for. The same ones who wanted to give nuclear materials to Iran. Freaking idiots.

Are you kidding me? Please see the following website, one of which is the White House's website. Sheesh. Get your facts straight before you assert them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

applicable paragraph: Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. As President Kennedy said in October of 1962, "Neither the United States of America, nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nations security to constitute maximum peril."

This was Bush outlining Iraq's threat to us.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/iraq.debate/

applicable paragraph: Rice acknowledged that "there will always be some uncertainty" in determining how close Iraq may be to obtaining a nuclear weapon but said, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39500-2003Aug9

applicable section: 'A Mushroom Cloud'

The day after publication of Card's marketing remark, Bush and nearly all his top advisers began to talk about the dangers of an Iraqi nuclear bomb.

Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair conferred at Camp David that Saturday, Sept. 7, and they each described alarming new evidence. Blair said proof that the threat is real came in "the report from the International Atomic Energy Agency this morning, showing what has been going on at the former nuclear weapon sites." Bush said "a report came out of the . . . IAEA, that they [Iraqis] were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need."

There was no new IAEA report. Blair appeared to be referring to news reports describing curiosity at the nuclear agency about repairs at sites of Iraq's former nuclear program. Bush cast as present evidence the contents of a report from 1996, updated in 1998 and 1999. In those accounts, the IAEA described the history of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program that arms inspectors had systematically destroyed.

A White House spokesman later acknowledged that Bush "was imprecise" on his source but stood by the crux of his charge. The spokesman said U.S. intelligence, not the IAEA, had given Bush his information.

That, too, was garbled at best. U.S. intelligence reports had only one scenario for an Iraqi bomb in six months to a year, premised on Iraq's immediate acquisition of enough plutonium or enriched uranium from a foreign source.

"That is just about the same thing as saying that if Iraq gets a bomb, it will have a bomb," said a U.S. intelligence analyst who covers the subject. "We had no evidence for it."

Two debuts took place on Sept. 8: the aluminum tubes and the image of "a mushroom cloud." A Sunday New York Times story quoted anonymous officials as saying the "diameter, thickness and other technical specifications" of the tubes -- precisely the grounds for skepticism among nuclear enrichment experts -- showed that they were "intended as components of centrifuges."

No one knows when Iraq will have its weapon, the story said, but "the first sign of a 'smoking gun,' they argue, may be a mushroom cloud."

Top officials made the rounds of Sunday talk shows that morning. Rice's remarks echoed the newspaper story. She said on CNN's "Late Edition" that Hussein was "actively pursuing a nuclear weapon" and that the tubes -- described repeatedly in U.S. intelligence reports as "dual-use" items -- were "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

"There will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons," Rice added, "but we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

Anna Perez, a communications adviser to Rice, said Rice did not come looking for an opportunity to say that. "There was nothing in her mind that said, 'I have to push the nuclear issue,' " Perez said, "but Wolf [Blitzer] asked the question."

Powell, a confidant said, found it "disquieting when people say things like mushroom clouds." But he contributed in other ways to the message. When asked about biological and chemical arms on Fox News, he brought up nuclear weapons and cited the "specialized aluminum tubing" that "we saw in reporting just this morning."

Cheney, on NBC's "Meet the Press," also mentioned the tubes and said "increasingly, we believe the United States will become the target" of an Iraqi nuclear weapon. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, on CBS's "Face the Nation," asked listeners to "imagine a September 11th with weapons of mass destruction," which would kill "tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children."

Bush evoked the mushroom cloud on Oct. 7, and on Nov. 12 Gen. Tommy R. Franks, chief of U.S. Central Command, said inaction might bring "the sight of the first mushroom cloud on one of the major population centers on this planet."

I get it now ..... the DNC has appointed you spokesperson for every worn-out, twisted argument in their handbook. :dev3:
 
I love it. I see Avatar has not responded to my post where I proved his statement that no one in the Bush administration (including Bush) had said anything about a mushroom cloud. What's interesting is that I see he is unable to admit that he mis"wrote." ;)
 
ProudDem said:
Now that's funny. I guess our being told that Iraq had WMDs and that it was an imminent threat to us, when, in fact, it had no WMDs, it had not threatened us, nor was there any connection between September 11th and Iraq, aren't valid reasons. Okaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Wow, there are some people out there that still can't read transcripts or listen to facts properly?

I would like you to link me to where Bush ever stated Iraq was an imminent threat to the US. Not something similar, not what you made out of his speech, but a link showing he stated "Iraq is an imminent threat to the US".

If you can't do this, you're only proving that the left hears what they like and runs with it, no matter how much they screw up the facts and no matter how ridiculous they look.
 
jimnyc said:
Wow, there are some people out there that still can't read transcripts or listen to facts properly?

I would like you to link me to where Bush ever stated Iraq was an imminent threat to the US. Not something similar, not what you made out of his speech, but a link showing he stated "Iraq is an imminent threat to the US".

If you can't do this, you're only proving that the left hears what they like and runs with it, no matter how much they screw up the facts and no matter how ridiculous they look.

Please see the following website. I have highlighted the statements he makes that essentially state that Iraq is an imminent threat to us. It amazes me how quickly republicans and conservatives forget what Bush said. I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all. Thank you for that very gracious and warm Cincinnati welcome. I'm honored to be here tonight; I appreciate you all coming.

Tonight I want to take a few minutes to discuss a grave threat to peace, and America's determination to lead the world in confronting that threat.

The threat comes from Iraq. It arises directly from the Iraqi regime's own actions -- its history of aggression, and its drive toward an arsenal of terror. Eleven years ago, as a condition for ending the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi regime was required to destroy its weapons of mass destruction, to cease all development of such weapons, and to stop all support for terrorist groups. The Iraqi regime has violated all of those obligations. It possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. It has given shelter and support to terrorism, and practices terror against its own people. The entire world has witnessed Iraq's eleven-year history of defiance, deception and bad faith.

We also must never forget the most vivid events of recent history. On September the 11th, 2001, America felt its vulnerability -- even to threats that gather on the other side of the earth. We resolved then, and we are resolved today, to confront every threat, from any source, that could bring sudden terror and suffering to America.

Members of the Congress of both political parties, and members of the United Nations Security Council, agree that Saddam Hussein is a threat to peace and must disarm. We agree that the Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons. Since we all agree on this goal, the issues is : how can we best achieve it?

Many Americans have raised legitimate questions: about the nature of the threat; about the urgency of action -- why be concerned now; about the link between Iraq developing weapons of terror, and the wider war on terror. These are all issues we've discussed broadly and fully within my administration. And tonight, I want to share those discussions with you.

First, some ask why Iraq is different from other countries or regimes that also have terrible weapons. While there are many dangers in the world, the threat from Iraq stands alone -- because it gathers the most serious dangers of our age in one place. Iraq's weapons of mass destruction are controlled by a murderous tyrant who has already used chemical weapons to kill thousands of people. This same tyrant has tried to dominate the Middle East, has invaded and brutally occupied a small neighbor, has struck other nations without warning, and holds an unrelenting hostility toward the United States.

...

Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?

...

And surveillance photos reveal that the regime is rebuilding facilities that it had used to produce chemical and biological weapons. Every chemical and biological weapon that Iraq has or makes is a direct violation of the truce that ended the Persian Gulf War in 1991. Yet, Saddam Hussein has chosen to build and keep these weapons despite international sanctions, U.N. demands, and isolation from the civilized world.

Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles -- far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations -- in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work. We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States. And, of course, sophisticated delivery systems aren't required for a chemical or biological attack; all that might be required are a small container and one terrorist or Iraqi intelligence operative to deliver it.

And that is the source of our urgent concern about Saddam Hussein's links to international terrorist groups. Over the years, Iraq has provided safe haven to terrorists such as Abu Nidal, whose terror organization carried out more than 90 terrorist attacks in 20 countries that killed or injured nearly 900 people, including 12 Americans. Iraq has also provided safe haven to Abu Abbas, who was responsible for seizing the Achille Lauro and killing an American passenger. And we know that Iraq is continuing to finance terror and gives assistance to groups that use terrorism to undermine Middle East peace.

We know that Iraq and the al Qaeda terrorist network share a common enemy -- the United States of America. We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks. We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases. And we know that after September the 11th, Saddam Hussein's regime gleefully celebrated the terrorist attacks on America.

Iraq could decide on any given day to provide a biological or chemical weapon to a terrorist group or individual terrorists. Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints.

Some have argued that confronting the threat from Iraq could detract from the war against terror. To the contrary; confronting the threat posed by Iraq is crucial to winning the war on terror. When I spoke to Congress more than a year ago, I said that those who harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves. Saddam Hussein is harboring terrorists and the instruments of terror, the instruments of mass death and destruction. And he cannot be trusted. The risk is simply too great that he will use them, or provide them to a terror network.

Terror cells and outlaw regimes building weapons of mass destruction are different faces of the same evil. Our security requires that we confront both. And the United States military is capable of confronting both.

Many people have asked how close Saddam Hussein is to developing a nuclear weapon. Well, we don't know exactly, and that's the problem. Before the Gulf War, the best intelligence indicated that Iraq was eight to ten years away from developing a nuclear weapon. After the war, international inspectors learned that the regime has been much closer -- the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993. The inspectors discovered that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a workable nuclear weapon, and was pursuing several different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb.

...

The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

If the Iraqi regime is able to produce, buy, or steal an amount of highly enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than a year. And if we allow that to happen, a terrible line would be crossed. Saddam Hussein would be in a position to blackmail anyone who opposes his aggression. He would be in a position to dominate the Middle East. He would be in a position to threaten America. And Saddam Hussein would be in a position to pass nuclear technology to terrorists.

Some citizens wonder, after 11 years of living with this problem, why do we need to confront it now? And there's a reason. We've experienced the horror of September the 11th. We have seen that those who hate America are willing to crash airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Our enemies would be no less willing, in fact, they would be eager, to use biological or chemical, or a nuclear weapon.

[B]Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. [/B] As President Kennedy said in October of 1962, "Neither the United States of America, nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nations security to constitute maximum peril."

Understanding the threats of our time, knowing the designs and deceptions of the Iraqi regime, we have every reason to assume the worst, and we have an urgent duty to prevent the worst from occurring.

Some believe we can address this danger by simply resuming the old approach to inspections, and applying diplomatic and economic pressure. Yet this is precisely what the world has tried to do since 1991. The U.N. inspections program was met with systematic deception. The Iraqi regime bugged hotel rooms and offices of inspectors to find where they were going next; they forged documents, destroyed evidence, and developed mobile weapons facilities to keep a step ahead of inspectors. Eight so-called presidential palaces were declared off-limits to unfettered inspections. These sites actually encompass twelve square miles, with hundreds of structures, both above and below the ground, where sensitive materials could be hidden.

...

After eleven years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon.

Clearly, to actually work, any new inspections, sanctions or enforcement mechanisms will have to be very different. America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Among those requirements: the Iraqi regime must reveal and destroy, under U.N. supervision, all existing weapons of mass destruction. To ensure that we learn the truth, the regime must allow witnesses to its illegal activities to be interviewed outside the country -- and these witnesses must be free to bring their families with them so they all beyond the reach of Saddam Hussein's terror and murder. And inspectors must have access to any site, at any time, without pre-clearance, without delay, without exceptions.

The time for denying, deceiving, and delaying has come to an end. Saddam Hussein must disarm himself -- or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him.

Many nations are joining us in insisting that Saddam Hussein's regime be held accountable. They are committed to defending the international security that protects the lives of both our citizens and theirs. And that's why America is challenging all nations to take the resolutions of the U.N. Security Council seriously.

And these resolutions are clear. In addition to declaring and destroying all of its weapons of mass destruction, Iraq must end its support for terrorism. It must cease the persecution of its civilian population. It must stop all illicit trade outside the Oil For Food program. It must release or account for all Gulf War personnel, including an American pilot, whose fate is still unknown.

By taking these steps, and by only taking these steps, the Iraqi regime has an opportunity to avoid conflict. Taking these steps would also change the nature of the Iraqi regime itself. America hopes the regime will make that choice. Unfortunately, at least so far, we have little reason to expect it. And that's why two administrations -- mine and President Clinton's -- have stated that regime change in Iraq is the only certain means of removing a great danger to our nation.

I hope this will not require military action, but it may. And military conflict could be difficult. An Iraqi regime faced with its own demise may attempt cruel and desperate measures. If Saddam Hussein orders such measures, his generals would be well advised to refuse those orders. If they do not refuse, they must understand that all war criminals will be pursued and punished. If we have to act, we will take every precaution that is possible. We will plan carefully; we will act with the full power of the United States military; we will act with allies at our side, and we will prevail. (Applause.)

There is no easy or risk-free course of action. Some have argued we should wait -- and that's an option. In my view, it's the riskiest of all options, because the longer we wait, the stronger and bolder Saddam Hussein will become. We could wait and hope that Saddam does not give weapons to terrorists, or develop a nuclear weapon to blackmail the world. But I'm convinced that is a hope against all evidence. As Americans, we want peace -- we work and sacrifice for peace. But there can be no peace if our security depends on the will and whims of a ruthless and aggressive dictator. I'm not willing to stake one American life on trusting Saddam Hussein.

Failure to act would embolden other tyrants, allow terrorists access to new weapons and new resources, and make blackmail a permanent feature of world events. The United Nations would betray the purpose of its founding, and prove irrelevant to the problems of our time. And through its inaction, the United States would resign itself to a future of fear.

That is not the America I know. That is not the America I serve. We refuse to live in fear. (Applause.) This nation, in world war and in Cold War, has never permitted the brutal and lawless to set history's course. Now, as before, we will secure our nation, protect our freedom, and help others to find freedom of their own.

Some worry that a change of leadership in Iraq could create instability and make the situation worse. The situation could hardly get worse, for world security and for the people of Iraq. The lives of Iraqi citizens would improve dramatically if Saddam Hussein were no longer in power, just as the lives of Afghanistan's citizens improved after the Taliban. The dictator of Iraq is a student of Stalin, using murder as a tool of terror and control, within his own cabinet, within his own army, and even within his own family.

On Saddam Hussein's orders, opponents have been decapitated, wives and mothers of political opponents have been systematically raped as a method of intimidation, and political prisoners have been forced to watch their own children being tortured.

America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi'a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin.

...

Later this week, the United States Congress will vote on this matter. I have asked Congress to authorize the use of America's military, if it proves necessary, to enforce U.N. Security Council demands. Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable. The resolution will tell the United Nations, and all nations, that America speaks with one voice and is determined to make the demands of the civilized world mean something. Congress will also be sending a message to the dictator in Iraq: that his only chance -- his only choice is full compliance, and the time remaining for that choice is limited.

Members of Congress are nearing an historic vote. I'm confident they will fully consider the facts, and their duties.

The attacks of September the 11th showed our country that vast oceans no longer protect us from danger. Before that tragic date, we had only hints of al Qaeda's plans and designs. Today in Iraq, we see a threat whose outlines are far more clearly defined, and whose consequences could be far more deadly. Saddam Hussein's actions have put us on notice, and there is no refuge from our responsibilities.

We did not ask for this present challenge, but we accept it. Like other generations of Americans, we will meet the responsibility of defending human liberty against violence and aggression. By our resolve, we will give strength to others. By our courage, we will give hope to others. And by our actions, we will secure the peace, and lead the world to a better day.

May God bless America. (Applause.)
 
ProudDem said:
I work for the Dept. of Veterans Affairs, and I have gone to Walter Reed to see these soldiers. It is heartbreaking to see those that have survived and will forever be disabled.

Don't get all emotional on us, now, and try to pull at our heartstrings. I doubt that even Max Clelland would join you in your pity party that, just because these guys are now disabled, there is no way they can ever lead productive lives again. All the interviews I have read with these guys indicates that they strongly support the war in Iraq and want to go back and finish the job. Quite a different perspective on things than you bleeding-heart liberals wish that they had.

One thing about those military guys--they have got you liberals pegged for what you are, and that's why they never support you in the voting booth, where it counts.
 
Adam's Apple said:
Don't get all emotional on us, now, and try to pull at our heartstrings. I doubt that even Max Clelland would join you in your pity party that, just because these guys are now disabled, there is no way they can ever lead productive lives again. All the interviews I have read with these guys indicates that they strongly support the war in Iraq and want to go back and finish the job. Quite a different perspective on things than you bleeding-heart liberals wish that they had.

One thing about those military guys--they have got you liberals pegged for what you are, and that's why they never support you in the voting booth, where it counts.

Adam, please tell me where I said that these men would not be able to live productive lives. Just because one is disabled doesn't mean that they cannot live a productive life. So don't read into my words. Disabled means disabled, no matter what the severity of that disability.

And yes, you will see interviews where these soldiers indicate that they support the war and all that good stuff. I am sure some of them do, or even a majority of them do, but do you really think that they would criticize the president or the war when they are on national TV and still in the military? I certainly don't think so.

I agree that the majority of people in the military support the president. But don't pretend that ALL of them do. I also would be curious to see the breakdown of how soldiers voted between those enlisted and those who are officers. I have several friends who are officers in the Marine Corps and the Army, and guess what? They voted for John Kerry. One of them told me that based upon the people with whom he served in Iraq, that it was about 50/50 in those who supported the war and the president and those who did not. Those people are officers. Just FYI.
 
dilloduck said:
Bush will be our president for 3 more years--our troops are still in Iraq---the gulf coast is gone--al queda is still making plans to terrorize America and it's allies.
Do plan to ***** until 2008 and just make everything a little bit harder for America or would you like to try to be part of the solution?

ProudDem,

I've asked you several questions such as this one. Do you intend to answer any of them. And I have a nother one----What is it about the democratic party that makes you so proud to be one?
 
ProudDem said:
Please see the following website. I have highlighted the statements he makes that essentially state that Iraq is an imminent threat to us. It amazes me how quickly republicans and conservatives forget what Bush said. I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

And why doesn't it surprise me that NOWHERE in your link does it show Bush ever stating Iraq was an imminent threat to the US. Just as I figured, you took his words and stated it in your own fashion as opposed to just stating the facts. Stating that Iraq is a grave danger to the US is a lot different than saying they were and imminent threat.

Would you like to try again, or just be labeled another left wing nutjob who listens to crap by the dems and takes it for gospel?

And lastly, shall we re-list once again the dozens of Democrats who went public in stating that Saddam had WMD and needed to be removed, and authorizing the use of force? And don't try to blame Bush for that, that was prior to him being elected. So I guess when a Dem states it and votes for force it's ok, but when it's Bush it's an issue? Typical lib rhetoric.
 
ProudDem said:
Adam, please tell me where I said that these men would not be able to live productive lives. Just because one is disabled doesn't mean that they cannot live a productive life. So don't read into my words. Disabled means disabled, no matter what the severity of that disability.

Regardless of what you say your words did or did not say, the implication was there. You were saying that "Bush's war" had taken away these men's lives, and now all that was left to do was to pity them. You had gone to Walter Reed and saw the condition of these men yourself, and you were just heartbroken to see them like that.

And yes, you will see interviews where these soldiers indicate that they support the war and all that good stuff. I am sure some of them do, or even a majority of them do, but do you really think that they would criticize the president or the war when they are on national TV and still in the military? I certainly don't think so.

Do I really think that they would criticize the president or the war when they are on national TV and still in the military? All those I have heard and seen on TV or speak on talk radio about their experiences in Iraq fully support President Bush and the war on terror. The liberal press does not pick up these stories and publish them because the viewpoints of these soldiers do not support the MSM's agenda.

In the 2004 election, the military cast 71% of their vote for President Bush, while only 17% went for John Kerry. Don't you find that rather odd, if the military guys are so disenchanted with President Bush and the war on terror? The soldiers spoke loud and clear with their ballots, letting you libs know that they do have a voice in the matter, regardless of your propaganda that they don't and they are afraid to speak out. No one forced them to pull that lever for President Bush in the voting both, so don't try to tell me that they are afraid of retribution if they speak out against the war and President Bush.


I agree that the majority of people in the military support the president. But don't pretend that ALL of them do. I also would be curious to see the breakdown of how soldiers voted between those enlisted and those who are officers. I have several friends who are officers in the Marine Corps and the Army, and guess what? They voted for John Kerry. One of them told me that based upon the people with whom he served in Iraq, that it was about 50/50 in those who supported the war and the president and those who did not. Those people are officers. Just FYI.

I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that I was trying to pretend that all who serve in the military support President Bush. I wasn't. I was just telling you that the vast majority of those who serve in the military votes against you libs every time.
 
dilloduck said:
ProudDem,

I've asked you several questions such as this one. Do you intend to answer any of them. And I have a nother one----What is it about the democratic party that makes you so proud to be one?

Dillo, I guess I must have missed the prior questions. It's hard to keep track of every single post. I am proud to be a democrat because I support what they stand for. I am pro-choice, I am pro-environment (and don't bother telling me that republicans support the environment because they don't), I am for sepration of church and state, I am against the death penality, I am for allowing everyone the same entitlement to benefits (such as gay marriage), etc.
 
jimnyc said:
And why doesn't it surprise me that NOWHERE in your link does it show Bush ever stating Iraq was an imminent threat to the US. Just as I figured, you took his words and stated it in your own fashion as opposed to just stating the facts. Stating that Iraq is a grave danger to the US is a lot different than saying they were and imminent threat.

Would you like to try again, or just be labeled another left wing nutjob who listens to crap by the dems and takes it for gospel?

And lastly, shall we re-list once again the dozens of Democrats who went public in stating that Saddam had WMD and needed to be removed, and authorizing the use of force? And don't try to blame Bush for that, that was prior to him being elected. So I guess when a Dem states it and votes for force it's ok, but when it's Bush it's an issue? Typical lib rhetoric.

Jim, maybe you're having trouble reading between the lines. Bush talks about Iraq being a grave threat to us. Then he says why we should invade it NOW, as opposed to wait. He talks about a mushroom cloud. Can you genuinely tell me that the following two paragraphs do not indicate that there is some imminency in waiting to invade Iraq?

Some citizens wonder, after 11 years of living with this problem, why do we need to confront it now? And there's a reason. We've experienced the horror of September the 11th. We have seen that those who hate America are willing to crash airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Our enemies would be no less willing, in fact, they would be eager, to use biological or chemical, or a nuclear weapon.

Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud. As President Kennedy said in October of 1962, "Neither the United States of America, nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world," he said, "where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nations security to constitute maximum peril."


Throughout this speech, he is telling us about how Iraq is developing nuclear weapons and that Saddam is a grave danger to the US. Then he says we should not wait any longer and that the threat is gathering against us and that we cannot wait for the final proof of something like "a mushroom cloud." Sorry, Jim, but that entire speech screams imminency. You're not going to convince me that he wasn't claiming imminency. It is okay for people to paraphrase what they got out of a speech, isn't it?

I am fully aware of what the democrats said prior to the invasion. Does that mean I agreed with them? Does that mean that they, or I, are not allowed to change our minds? Saddam unquestionably had WMDs in the past. I believe that they had been destroyed in 1991 or 1992 and he had not had them since that time. Many politicians, both republicans and democrats, relied in intelligence that was just not accurate. We don't need to rehash this at this point. You're not going to convince me that you're right, and I'm not going to convince you that I'm right. So I am done with this discussion.
 
Adam's Apple said:
Regardless of what you say your words did or did not say, the implication was there. You were saying that "Bush's war" had taken away these men's lives, and now all that was left to do was to pity them. You had gone to Walter Reed and saw the condition of these men yourself, and you were just heartbroken to see them like that.

Oh Brother--the implication was there. Well, Adam, living a productive life is in the eye of the beholder. If you had your leg blown off, but you could still make lots of money, does that mean you can't be devastated over not having a leg anymore and not being able to do the things with your leg that you once did? It is heartbreaking to see people struggling and having to come to terms with their disability or disabilities.

Do I really think that they would criticize the president or the war when they are on national TV and still in the military? All those I have heard and seen on TV or speak on talk radio about their experiences in Iraq fully support President Bush and the war on terror. The liberal press does not pick up these stories and publish them because the viewpoints of these soldiers do not support the MSM's agenda.


Yawn.

In the 2004 election, the military cast 71% of their vote for President Bush, while only 17% went for John Kerry. Don't you find that rather odd, if the military guys are so disenchanted with President Bush and the war on terror? The soldiers spoke loud and clear with their ballots, letting you libs know that they do have a voice in the matter, regardless of your propaganda that they don't and they are afraid to speak out. No one forced them to pull that lever for President Bush in the voting both, so don't try to tell me that they are afraid of retribution if they speak out against the war and President Bush.

Huh? You're assuming that when I discussed that someone would not speak negatively about our president on TV that it somehow included a soldier's vote? Puleeze. No wonder you inferred incorrectly what I said in the prior post.

That is an interesting statistic. I am curious to know the breakdown of the 71% as to what of that % was from enlisted versus officers.


I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that I was trying to pretend that all who serve in the military support President Bush. I wasn't. I was just telling you that the vast majority of those who serve in the military votes against you libs every time.

Wow, that really hurts. NOT.
 
15th post
GotZoom said:
Cindy Sheehan may have ended her summer vigil at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, but she is taking her anti-war activism to colleges/universities by participating in public speaking and public programs across the nation.

New York, NY (PRWEB via PR Web Direct) September 14, 2005 -- There are moments in history when the courageous actions of one individual act to galvanize a movement – whether for civil rights, women's rights, pro-democracy, or against a war.

The summer of 2005 will forever be remembered with one mother's vigil for her lost son at President Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas. Cindy Sheehan has re-energized the nation's anti-war movement with her unflagging desire to meet with the president to ask: “What is the noble cause for which my son died in Iraq?”

Cindy Sheehan has become a national symbol of the powerless confronting the powerful, of a mother mourning the loss of her child and seeking answers from the nation's commander-in-chief, the man who made the case for the war in which her son lost his life.

Sheehan's activism has not ended with the president returning to Washington after his vacation. She is now involved in public speaking to groups around the country: one mother with one voice and one mission – to find a way to bring our troops home and spare other parents the grief of losing a child in an unjust war.

For additional information on Cindy Sheehan and her public speaking availability, visit www.speakingmatters.org.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/9/prweb284918.htm

------

You couldn't pay ME to let her speak somewhere.

no conscience and no morals at all. Shameful. The summer of 2005 will be remembered for Katrina. Never for Cindy Sheehan. What drivel..
 
Alright. Anyone who says that Cindy cant be critisized because she lost a son better shut the heck up from now on. I just heard her tell a pregnant woman who lost her husband in Iraq off because that woman had the guts to speak up to her through her tears and tell her that she is misinformed if she thinks Al Queda is not in Iraq when Al Queda is taking credit for the attack that killed her husband. Cindy's response was "Well now your child is going to be fatherless because of a lie" There wasn't any compassion for this woman who was mourning the loss of her husband, who is excepting their child within the week. She was emotionally dead in her voice. She didn't even care.

If you Democrats want someone so heartless in your party fine. Keep her. But dont expect her to get you guys any support.
 
Avatar4321 said:
Alright. Anyone who says that Cindy cant be critisized because she lost a son better shut the heck up from now on. I just heard her tell a pregnant woman who lost her husband in Iraq off because that woman had the guts to speak up to her through her tears and tell her that she is misinformed if she thinks Al Queda is not in Iraq when Al Queda is taking credit for the attack that killed her husband. Cindy's response was "Well now your child is going to be fatherless because of a lie" There wasn't any compassion for this woman who was mourning the loss of her husband, who is excepting their child within the week. She was emotionally dead in her voice. She didn't even care.

If you Democrats want someone so heartless in your party fine. Keep her. But dont expect her to get you guys any support.

Where's the compassion for Cindy Sheehan? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. When we are passionate about a subject, people can be somewhat thoughtless. Cindy is upset that her son died because of a lie. You may not think it's a lie, but she does.

So what would you expect democrats to do about Cindy Sheehan? How do we have any control whether she is in our party or not? That's kind of a foolish question, don't you think? I think those who oppose the war will support her and those who support the war will not. Will it cause people to leave the democratic party? I doubt it.
 
ThomasPaine said:
no conscience and no morals at all. Shameful. The summer of 2005 will be remembered for Katrina. Never for Cindy Sheehan. What drivel..

History will speak for itself. But if it's important to you to think that no one will remember Cindy Sheehan, by all means.....
 
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