Study: electric cars emit more CO2 then diesel vehicles

[MindWars]

Study: Electric Cars Emit More CO2 Than Diesel Vehicles
Electric cars in Germany are emitting more CO2 than diesel vehicles, according to a German study.



I wonder how long it will be before the real dumb asses realize they actually drink CO2 and yes you have been duped and are that dumb.lol The FEDS use psyche warfare on u dumb asses ppl warn you over and over but still you don't get it you even drink it daily if you love your SODAS lol.

 

[Blues Man]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

 

[Wyatt earp]

Its funny how people won't read all the variables , just pick and choose what they like


from the link...


Production of car batteries – and charging them for use – must be factored in, say study’s authors




.

 

[BlindBoo]

Was that a study done by VW?

That would also mean that gasoline engines emit less too.

 

[MindWars]

Study: Electric Cars Emit More CO2 Than Diesel Vehicles
Electric cars in Germany are emitting more CO2 than diesel vehicles, according to a German study.



I wonder how long it will be before the real dumb asses realize they actually drink CO2 and yes you have been duped and are that dumb.lol The FEDS use psyche warfare on u dumb asses ppl warn you over and over but still you don't get it you even drink it daily if you love your SODAS lol.

For those who don't see the CO2 SODA connnection

The fizz that bubbles up when you crack open a can of soda is carbon dioxide gas (CO2). Soft drink manufacturers add this tingling froth by forcing carbon dioxide and water into your soda at high pressures—up to 1,200 pounds per square inch. The "fssst" you hear is millions of carbon dioxide molecules bursting out of their sweet, watery prisons, where they have been held against their will.
Why Does Soda Fizz?

 

[Andylusion]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

 

[BlindBoo]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

Can't most of that machinery be run on diesel?

 

[Blues Man]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

And what if all the diesel engines in that chain ran on vegetable oil?

That's more realistic than providing all the electricity the country needs with windmills

 

[Andylusion]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

Can't most of that machinery be run on diesel?

Sure, but that is prohibitively expensive.

Typically regular vegetable oil has less energy as well. You can moderate this with blends, but generally you will need a little more veg-oil than real oil, to do the same work.

However, the problem is that the cost per gallon on veg-oil is drastically higher than that of regular oil. Most estimates place a replacement cost at roughly $8/gallon. Suggesting that farmers move their machinery over to veg-oil at $8 a gallon is about as likely to happen, as you voluntarily paying $8/gallon.

Now that isn't to say that if oil actually stops flowing on the Earth, that we can't adjust to it, and move to a vegetable oil system. Yeah, I think we could.

But to suggest it is a green-alternative today, when everything is run on regular oil, and it won't change any time soon... no, it's not a green alternative. Thousands of gallons oil, and tons of coal, and nuclear power was used to make that vegetable oil.

Now even if we imagined a future where oil was declining.... I still don't think that vegetable oil is a solution. I can see that as a solution in a world devastating dystopia.

And the real problem is.... land.

Last estimates are that it would require 440,000 sq miles to produce enough veg-oil to replace current oil usage.

Right now, there are only 650,000 sq miles of farm land in the US. That means 2/3rds of all farm land would have been switched over to producing oil.

Can you image what will happen to food prices in this country, when we go from being a net exporter of food, to a massive net importer? Prices will go crazy.

 

[Blues Man]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

Can't most of that machinery be run on diesel?

Sure, but that is prohibitively expensive.

Typically regular vegetable oil has less energy as well. You can moderate this with blends, but generally you will need a little more veg-oil than real oil, to do the same work.

However, the problem is that the cost per gallon on veg-oil is drastically higher than that of regular oil. Most estimates place a replacement cost at roughly $8/gallon. Suggesting that farmers move their machinery over to veg-oil at $8 a gallon is about as likely to happen, as you voluntarily paying $8/gallon.

Now that isn't to say that if oil actually stops flowing on the Earth, that we can't adjust to it, and move to a vegetable oil system. Yeah, I think we could.

But to suggest it is a green-alternative today, when everything is run on regular oil, and it won't change any time soon... no, it's not a green alternative. Thousands of gallons oil, and tons of coal, and nuclear power was used to make that vegetable oil.

Now even if we imagined a future where oil was declining.... I still don't think that vegetable oil is a solution. I can see that as a solution in a world devastating dystopia.

And the real problem is.... land.

Last estimates are that it would require 440,000 sq miles to produce enough veg-oil to replace current oil usage.

Right now, there are only 650,000 sq miles of farm land in the US. That means 2/3rds of all farm land would have been switched over to producing oil.

Can you image what will happen to food prices in this country, when we go from being a net exporter of food, to a massive net importer? Prices will go crazy.

You can use waste vegetable oil. You don't have to buy it new

And even if we used a blend of diesel fuel and vegetable oil it's still better than 100% diesel.

And lets not forget that there are biomass fuels as well and when the process costs for distilling fuel from biomass drops it will be an excellent addition to the fuel supply

 

[SandSquid]

Interesting opinion article (not an academic study, no peer review, opinion of three people here, none with any background in the car industry, energy production, electrical sciences, batteries, etc...). Have they responded yet to the reviews questioning some of their statements in the study?




They base their study on batteries ending short of the warranty period, and only 300 cycles on the battery even though studies have proven over 80% battery life past 1000 cycles. Why not use actual proven lifetime numbers here? Where and why did 300 cycles come up?



They make the assumption that at 10 years, before the warranty expires, all of the battery is then disposed of. Why not actually report on the Tesla model 3 using Umicore for a closed loop recycling system in Europe which saves 60% of the battery and is expected to be able to recycle even more in the near future? It's like saying that every oil change of a diesel has the used oil disposed of directly into your drinking water. Not at all true of what happens. then they completely ignore the lead acid batteries in a diesel for some unknown reason.

They use the NEDC driving cycle which is being phased out because they were found to be 40% below actual results. Why use that rather than WLTP or EPA numbers found to better meet real world testing? Because if you use the realistic numbers, the results don't fit anymore. (NEDC for example hasn't been updated since the 1990's, was put together with influence from auto industry and says tests can be conducted running cars in 'eco' modes only, with overinflated tires, driving under speed limits, removing mirrors and roof rails to reduce drag, with A/C heat/heated windows off, and even taping cracks between body panels). Which is why new guidelines were created, which better match comparisons between testing and real world emissions.

They use a worst case from a study in Sweden on battery production, for the model 3 battery, ignoring that production is powered at Tesla's Gigafactory almost entirely by renewables. When your "study" has to move a 13 million square foot factory halfway around the world to make it's conclusion, I would question it.

They ignore production costs for parts on the diesel an EV doesn't have (exhaust, emission control). It would be like saying a cat is a more expensive pet. And your calculation has a line for cat food, but no line for dog food costs.

They take the Federal Environmental Agency Tesla 3 CO2 emissions, then add 16% to that number with no reasoning why. It's just a random bump to get the answer they want. Why not use the actual number?

They likewise assume pessimistic numbers for CO2/kWh that are not based in reality. (They call 650 gm, when EU average is 450 gm and they assume no change over a 10 year period even though that number is dropping consistently as electrical energy CO2 output falls). It's the same as saying "I can run a 7 minute mile, therefore I can complete a marathon in 3 hours because that is the same pace".

They include the emissions of producing electricity, but then completely ignore the emissions used to produce and supply diesel. Somehow magically, diesel comes out of the ground into your car with no energy required?

So EV's emit more CO2 is you make unrealistically negative assumptions for battery production, battery life, and electricity mix, vs unrealistically positive assumptions about diesel consumption and ignore the energy required to produce/transport it, and put together an opinion piece.

 

[BlindBoo]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

Can't most of that machinery be run on diesel?

Sure, but that is prohibitively expensive.

Typically regular vegetable oil has less energy as well. You can moderate this with blends, but generally you will need a little more veg-oil than real oil, to do the same work.

However, the problem is that the cost per gallon on veg-oil is drastically higher than that of regular oil. Most estimates place a replacement cost at roughly $8/gallon. Suggesting that farmers move their machinery over to veg-oil at $8 a gallon is about as likely to happen, as you voluntarily paying $8/gallon.

Now that isn't to say that if oil actually stops flowing on the Earth, that we can't adjust to it, and move to a vegetable oil system. Yeah, I think we could.

But to suggest it is a green-alternative today, when everything is run on regular oil, and it won't change any time soon... no, it's not a green alternative. Thousands of gallons oil, and tons of coal, and nuclear power was used to make that vegetable oil.

Now even if we imagined a future where oil was declining.... I still don't think that vegetable oil is a solution. I can see that as a solution in a world devastating dystopia.

And the real problem is.... land.

Last estimates are that it would require 440,000 sq miles to produce enough veg-oil to replace current oil usage.

Right now, there are only 650,000 sq miles of farm land in the US. That means 2/3rds of all farm land would have been switched over to producing oil.

Can you image what will happen to food prices in this country, when we go from being a net exporter of food, to a massive net importer? Prices will go crazy.

I understand all that. However the problem you presented wasn't one of cost or land use, but that the production of vegetable oil used traditional forms of energy that would contribute more CO2 to the system.

It would be unethical to utilize land already devoted to producing food to produce energy, imo.

 

[Andylusion]

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil.

Seems like a very green alternative

Yeah, because crop dusters run on fairy farts, and combines and harvesters use unicorns to pull them, and those produce trucks are powered by pixies, and that massive veg-oil manufacturing plant, it's all Minotaurs and goblins, not fossil fuels.

If you want to use vegetable oil, that's fine. But don't delude yourself into believing it's a green alternative, when fossil fuels are used through the entire chain to get that oil to you.

Can't most of that machinery be run on diesel?

Sure, but that is prohibitively expensive.

Typically regular vegetable oil has less energy as well. You can moderate this with blends, but generally you will need a little more veg-oil than real oil, to do the same work.

However, the problem is that the cost per gallon on veg-oil is drastically higher than that of regular oil. Most estimates place a replacement cost at roughly $8/gallon. Suggesting that farmers move their machinery over to veg-oil at $8 a gallon is about as likely to happen, as you voluntarily paying $8/gallon.

Now that isn't to say that if oil actually stops flowing on the Earth, that we can't adjust to it, and move to a vegetable oil system. Yeah, I think we could.

But to suggest it is a green-alternative today, when everything is run on regular oil, and it won't change any time soon... no, it's not a green alternative. Thousands of gallons oil, and tons of coal, and nuclear power was used to make that vegetable oil.

Now even if we imagined a future where oil was declining.... I still don't think that vegetable oil is a solution. I can see that as a solution in a world devastating dystopia.

And the real problem is.... land.

Last estimates are that it would require 440,000 sq miles to produce enough veg-oil to replace current oil usage.

Right now, there are only 650,000 sq miles of farm land in the US. That means 2/3rds of all farm land would have been switched over to producing oil.

Can you image what will happen to food prices in this country, when we go from being a net exporter of food, to a massive net importer? Prices will go crazy.

You can use waste vegetable oil. You don't have to buy it new

And even if we used a blend of diesel fuel and vegetable oil it's still better than 100% diesel.

And lets not forget that there are biomass fuels as well and when the process costs for distilling fuel from biomass drops it will be an excellent addition to the fuel supply

Waste cooking oil gets terrible gas mileage, and has carbon monoxide, and other exhaust problems.

This should not be surprising, given as the name suggests, it is oil that had something cooked in it. If you cook something in oil, it gets polluted with impurities. If you've ever seen a fast food fryer, where only one of the two tanks has been changed, this is fairly obvious. The one with new oil, you can see the bottom of the fryer. The one with old oil, you cannot.

However, with all that, do not think that I disapprove of using cooking oil to run your car or whatever. By all means. The oil would be tossed out otherwise.

That said, while it is true that the oil is free, that is only because no one wants it, but a few select people who modified their cars.

Imagine a situation where a significant number of people showed up asking for used cooking oil. If you owned the used cooking oil, how long would it be, before you started charging people for your oil? Not long.

This happened with the Bio-diesel plant in the mid-2000s. They were taking... I believe pork waste from a slaughter house, and converting it to bio-diesel. The investors believed they could take the pork waste off the hands of the farmer for free. But the farmers, hearing about a bio-diesel plant opening up, found they could make some money, and the plant had to pay for the waste.

Same thing will happen if running your car off of used cooking oil ever catches on.

Lastly, about bio-diesel. I think it shows the most promise of any of the ideas currently in the market. However, the tech simply isn't at the level to make it a viable alternative.

I think the most promise I've seen is in algae that makes oil. But there is a pretty large chasm between where that technology is at, and where the requirements of our civilization are. Can be bridge that gap? Well of course. As the supply of oil goes down (assuming it does), and as the prices goes up (which reduced supply would naturally cause), the result will be that these alternatives will gain more investment, and will become more viable.

I'm confident that unless the government screws up the energy markets (like Carter did in the 70s), we'll easily find alternatives when the need comes.

 

[Flopper]

Study: Electric Cars Emit More CO2 Than Diesel Vehicles
Electric cars in Germany are emitting more CO2 than diesel vehicles, according to a German study.



I wonder how long it will be before the real dumb asses realize they actually drink CO2 and yes you have been duped and are that dumb.lol The FEDS use psyche warfare on u dumb asses ppl warn you over and over but still you don't get it you even drink it daily if you love your SODAS lol.

Grid decarbonization offers a significant opportunity to reduce the impact of battery manufacturing. The emissions from battery manufacturing are likely to decline significantly in coming decades, especially with the use of cleaner electricity throughout the production cycle. A 30% decrease in grid carbon intensity would reduce emissions from the battery production chain by about 17%, in addition to even greater savings in the use phase. Use of recycled materials and alternative battery chemistries could also reduce emissions in the manufacturing phase. Even as electric vehicles use larger batteries to allow longer electric-range travel, these and other improvements will further increase electric cars’ life-cycle advantage over internal combustion engine vehicles.
Effects of battery manufacturing on electric vehicle life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions | International Council on Clean Transportation

 

[Zorro!]

ANNALS OF LEFTIST AUTOPHAGY: ‘Outrageous!’ Proposed registration fee hike for electric cars in Illinois leaves progressives shocked by cost of progressivism.

There’s a lede that the media will probably not go with, and that’s “Democrats who bought $75,000 cars with help of big taxpayer subsidies are complaining about a proposed tax increase that would affect them.”

 

[Flopper]

ANNALS OF LEFTIST AUTOPHAGY: ‘Outrageous!’ Proposed registration fee hike for electric cars in Illinois leaves progressives shocked by cost of progressivism.

There’s a lede that the media will probably not go with, and that’s “Democrats who bought $75,000 cars with help of big taxpayer subsidies are complaining about a proposed tax increase that would affect them.”

When goverment was offering large tax incentives to spur the manufacture of energy efficient bulbs, conservative raised hell about government interference in the marketplace and dangerous of CFL bulbs, and the huge price of LEDs.

In 2012 the goverment offered a 10 million dollar prize to create an affordable energy efficient bulb. The result was a $50 LED light bulb. Fox News had a heyday over this jewel, what a waste of taxpayer money. That bulb today is 15 times more efficient with a life of 10 years and cost $1 at Home Depot.

Today we have LED bulbs that use 1/7 the amount of electricity as incandescent and a cost over a 20 year period that is 85% cheaper than incandescent bulbs. When all lighting is converted to LEDs, the nation will save the equivalent 44 large power plants. Furthermore it has turned the bulb and fixture market into a growth industry.

 

[Flopper]

Study: Electric Cars Emit More CO2 Than Diesel Vehicles
Electric cars in Germany are emitting more CO2 than diesel vehicles, according to a German study.



I wonder how long it will be before the real dumb asses realize they actually drink CO2 and yes you have been duped and are that dumb.lol The FEDS use psyche warfare on u dumb asses ppl warn you over and over but still you don't get it you even drink it daily if you love your SODAS lol.

They are well aware of that. Manufacturing an electric vehicle today is more energy-intensive than manufacturing a conventionally fueled car. However, once in use, electric vehicles are much cleaner and energy-efficient. In terms of the environment, the electric vehicles of today are already performing better than internal combustion engines.
And this performance is set to improve as more renewables provide clean electricity to the grid. In 2018, sales were up nearly 80% and are expected to account for more than 30% of the vehicles sold world wide by 2018.

Just like early energy efficient light bulbs, every year sees improvement in price performance ratio and decreased in the energy footprint.