Socialized medicine does not work...

[Andylusion]

Social security doesn't work because most baby boomers are now taking more out than they put in. We need to cut them off.

That's no longer true. People are now getting less back, than what they put in.

That proves how bad social security is. Even with people getting out less money than they put in, the system is still going broke.

 

[WheelieAddict]

My links were to statistical facts. Your link was to a survey of opinion. There is a difference.

There is no need to discuss anything else until I expose your lie for what it is,

Here is one of your links I arbitrarily clicked on:

Average waiting time for GP appointment increases 30% in a year


The word "survey" appears in the first two paragraphs identifying the methodology used to determine your "facts."

The average waiting time for a routine GP appointment has almost hit two weeks, a Pulse survey has revealed.

The survey, answered by 831 respondents, found that the average waiting time for an appointment was just under 13 days – an increase from 10 days last year.

Alright buster, lets see you wriggle out of this one...heh heh heh! Caught you in a lie didn't I???

I don't get it... I thought you posted that link to prove that wait times were increasing in the US.

That one says it was about longer waiting times in the UK.

As long as the survey is based on fact, I don't have a problem with a survey. It depends on what the survey is gathering. Is it a survey of statistical facts? Or is it a survey of opinion.

I don't care about your opinion. Or the opinion of some 'expert', or even the opinion of some patient.

If you make a survey that says "How do you like US health care: rate 1 through 10"... that's a survey of opinion. You could have had the absolute best possible care on the planet, and thought it was terrible.

But if you have a survey that says "How many days did you wait between being diagnosed with cancer, and starting treatment: Give the number of days" That's a survey of statistical fact.

Now do you grasp the difference? When people survey how "equal" the care is... that's opinion. When you survey how "fair" the cost was... that's opinion. When you survey how much 'access' to care you have, that's Opinion.

Are you starting to get the difference? I don't care about a survey of opinion. I care about statistical fact. Which is exactly what I said before.

You seem to have gotten hooked on some rant about 'it's a survey'. It's WHAT you are surveying that I have problem with. Surveying opinion is just opinion. Survey the land where you intend to build a home, is a survey of facts.

Govt. healthcare is socialist medicare needs to be eliminated immediately. Those old ***** didn't put as much in as I am paying. Cut it off now. My taxes!

 

[WheelieAddict]

Social security doesn't work because most baby boomers are now taking more out than they put in. We need to cut them off.

That's no longer true. People are now getting less back, than what they put in.

That proves how bad social security is. Even with people getting out less money than they put in, the system is still going broke.

Lets cut off the parasite boomers that are abusing it then. They need to get off the govt tit!

 

[Andylusion]

My links were to statistical facts. Your link was to a survey of opinion. There is a difference.

There is no need to discuss anything else until I expose your lie for what it is,

Here is one of your links I arbitrarily clicked on:

Average waiting time for GP appointment increases 30% in a year


The word "survey" appears in the first two paragraphs identifying the methodology used to determine your "facts."

The average waiting time for a routine GP appointment has almost hit two weeks, a Pulse survey has revealed.

The survey, answered by 831 respondents, found that the average waiting time for an appointment was just under 13 days – an increase from 10 days last year.

Alright buster, lets see you wriggle out of this one...heh heh heh! Caught you in a lie didn't I???

I don't get it... I thought you posted that link to prove that wait times were increasing in the US.

That one says it was about longer waiting times in the UK.

As long as the survey is based on fact, I don't have a problem with a survey. It depends on what the survey is gathering. Is it a survey of statistical facts? Or is it a survey of opinion.

I don't care about your opinion. Or the opinion of some 'expert', or even the opinion of some patient.

If you make a survey that says "How do you like US health care: rate 1 through 10"... that's a survey of opinion. You could have had the absolute best possible care on the planet, and thought it was terrible.

But if you have a survey that says "How many days did you wait between being diagnosed with cancer, and starting treatment: Give the number of days" That's a survey of statistical fact.

Now do you grasp the difference? When people survey how "equal" the care is... that's opinion. When you survey how "fair" the cost was... that's opinion. When you survey how much 'access' to care you have, that's Opinion.

Are you starting to get the difference? I don't care about a survey of opinion. I care about statistical fact. Which is exactly what I said before.

You seem to have gotten hooked on some rant about 'it's a survey'. It's WHAT you are surveying that I have problem with. Surveying opinion is just opinion. Survey the land where you intend to build a home, is a survey of facts.

Govt. healthcare is socialist medicare needs to be eliminated immediately. Those old ***** didn't put as much in as I am paying. Cut it off now. My taxes!

Oh, you have no idea how much you are paying in. You don't have a clue. Not only would your taxes be lower, but your health insurance premiums would be cut by at least 1/3rd. If not more.

On top of that, you are also paying higher state taxes, and depending on the city you live in, local taxes to pay for medicare and medicaid.

You don't even have a clue how much Medicare is costing you. That 3% tax you pay on your pay check, is only a FRACTION of the costs these programs heap on you. Just a fraction.

 

[WheelieAddict]

These old **** boomers have been voting for less taxes while increasing their benefits. These parasite wellfare shits that want less govt. need to get off the govt. tit and stop increasing the debt for their children.

 

[JQPublic1]

You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA

World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems

The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

 

[JQPublic1]

Social security doesn't work because most baby boomers are now taking more out than they put in. We need to cut them off.

go ahead, make my day.... heh heh heh!

 

[JQPublic1]

These old **** boomers have been voting for less taxes while increasing their benefits. These parasite wellfare shits that want less govt. need to get off the govt. tit and stop increasing the debt for their children.

In 20 years most will be gone...Let em enjoy the little time they have left!

 

[WheelieAddict]

These old **** boomers have been voting for less taxes while increasing their benefits. These parasite wellfare shits that want less govt. need to get off the govt. tit and stop increasing the debt for their children.

In 20 years most will be gone...Let em enjoy the little time they have left!

I was being sarcastic, we need to keep medicare for seniors now and in the future.

 

[JQPublic1]

My links were to statistical facts. Your link was to a survey of opinion. There is a difference.

There is no need to discuss anything else until I expose your lie for what it is,

Here is one of your links I arbitrarily clicked on:

Average waiting time for GP appointment increases 30% in a year


The word "survey" appears in the first two paragraphs identifying the methodology used to determine your "facts."

The average waiting time for a routine GP appointment has almost hit two weeks, a Pulse survey has revealed.

The survey, answered by 831 respondents, found that the average waiting time for an appointment was just under 13 days – an increase from 10 days last year.

Alright buster, lets see you wriggle out of this one...heh heh heh! Caught you in a lie didn't I???

I don't get it... I thought you posted that link to prove that wait times were increasing in the US.

That one says it was about longer waiting times in the UK.

As long as the survey is based on fact, I don't have a problem with a survey. It depends on what the survey is gathering. Is it a survey of statistical facts? Or is it a survey of opinion.

I don't care about your opinion. Or the opinion of some 'expert', or even the opinion of some patient.

If you make a survey that says "How do you like US health care: rate 1 through 10"... that's a survey of opinion. You could have had the absolute best possible care on the planet, and thought it was terrible.

But if you have a survey that says "How many days did you wait between being diagnosed with cancer, and starting treatment: Give the number of days" That's a survey of statistical fact.

Now do you grasp the difference? When people survey how "equal" the care is... that's opinion. When you survey how "fair" the cost was... that's opinion. When you survey how much 'access' to care you have, that's Opinion.

Are you starting to get the difference? I don't care about a survey of opinion. I care about statistical fact. Which is exactly what I said before.

You seem to have gotten hooked on some rant about 'it's a survey'. It's WHAT you are surveying that I have problem with. Surveying opinion is just opinion. Survey the land where you intend to build a home, is a survey of facts.

You truly ARE a Repub-LIE-CON. I do't think I have ever seen such blatant back peddling, hard swallowing and tap dancing... Stick a fork in him folks,he is DONE!!!!!

 

[NCC1701]

You said I lack substance but then you addressed almost none of the points I made, none. Then you say that the women 'seems intelligent' but then attacked her credentials.


First she is co-founder of a company that support physicians, secondly I don't care. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy in this case, she made detailed arguments that you tried to hand wave away by saying she is not doctor. Well, so are you a doctor, are you 'qualified' to comment?

I'll take a closer look at your comments but I'm not promising you anything...heh heh heh!

As for the mysterious woman you keep referring to, do you expect me to accept what she says without references or citations?

Yes loser, I expect you to read and evaluate. She makes arguments that require no more reference material than the report you already have. She is not mysterious, her CV is one mouse click away, do I actually have to show you how to use the internet? In any event as I said, it is the substance of the argument that matters and not the person who said it, you STILL cannot grasp that logical reality.

So try again, I will shorten the list and make it simpler for you. France has lower access than the US and lower quality of care than the US, but the highest outcomes according to the study and as you said. Logically then you are forced to conclude that access to quality healthcare is not needed for good outcomes, which means universal care is irrelevant. I can't parse it any simpler for you, it is logically impossible to conclude from this study that better healthcare means better outcomes as you are doing. Your own quote from that study : "However, the indicators that are available demonstrate the health care system to be just one of many factors, including social and economic well-being, that influence the health of a nation. "

So what does a rational (i.e. non-liberal person) conclude? The only logical conclusion would be that our health care system is actually better than France, but there are other factors besides health care when it comes to outcomes, so why the hell do you keep harping on health care?

Look at your chart: In the area of quality there are 4 rated items: France is ahead of the USA in the most important one which is SAFE CARE. without that one, the rest of the quality factors don't really matter. Access? France is still ahead of the USA in both categories under that title. But why are you ignoring all the rest of the field. Focusing on France gives you no advantage here when all most other countries with socialized medicine are besting that of the USA in several categories. The USA has no ranking in the 1st spot under any healthcare item. AND that is WITH Obamacare which affords more Americans access to primary healthcare. Without Obamacare the USA 's showing in each of the categories , particularly ACCESS, would be far worse.

Look Toots, I don't need you to parse anything for me. If you disagree with the CF study, you'll go absolutely bonkers over this one from the World Health Organization:

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA

World Health Organization's Ranking of the World's Health Systems

Dishonest *****, now you deem SAFE CARE the most all most important variable and throw out another meaningless report. I don't disagree with the report, you do. The report said the US had more effective care, period. One cannot claim that effective care is somehow disassociated with outcomes, in fact effective care is almost defined by outcomes. The contradiction, as you yourself quoted, has nothing to do with health care because outcomes are dependent on a much larger set of variables. Yet you dishonestly and stupidly keep pretending that outcomes are solely descriptive of the health care system. Your own damn report refutes you.

The woman's very last point is salient, you of course ignored it. "It may be fine to blast the U.S. system for being expensive, but to say that we are paying too much for a bad system, while assessing badness based on the system being expensive, is circular logic that should have no place in serious scientific conversation"

The whole idea you are putting forth is rather dumb, one's health and lifespan are more determined by life choices and genetics than any hospital nearby. It is not 'the goal' of a health care system to make sure you live a long life, that is my goal and not the governments.

The idea I am putting forth isn't the one you say I am putting forth. If you want to know what I am putting forth, here it comes:

Two major studies have shown that the American capitalist based health care system is not on a par with the top socialist based healthcare systems of the world. The high cost of American healthcare has some bearing in that millions of Americans can not afford access to preventative or primary health care,especially without Obamacare. However, access blocked by high cost is but one of the factors involved in the low ranking of the USA at 37. Since Canada is ranked low as well at 30. The weight of High cost can essentially be ruled out as a prime factor in the ranking but it is one of several.
This isn't my opinion but I am forming one. I am leaning towards universal healthcare for all Americans at any age.

bullshit you liar, it says we have superior quality of care and better access than the highest rated country France, but lower outcomes which are obviously dependent on other life variables besides health care, yet you keep blubbering on about access and quality. Do liberals ever stop lying? are you so damned inculcated with your religion that any sort of critical examination is now beyond your capability?

 

[Cecilie1200]

And yet is does work in countries that have a mixture of both....hhhmmm...

There is no way It can work in the US... there are too many parasites in society

You say that like you think the US is unique in that regard.

 

[Cecilie1200]

how can you people be this stupid?

Deadbeats don't pay their bills. There are no bills in socialized medicine. The money comes from all taxpayers. Hence my statement.

Someone has to pay for something they do not want and will never use, see thats the problem with any form of socialized medicine.... in reality one size never fits all.

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Deadbeats don't pay their bills. There are no bills in socialized medicine. The money comes from all taxpayers. Hence my statement.

Someone has to pay for something they do not want and will never use, see thats the problem with any form of socialized medicine.... in reality one size never fits all.

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

 

[NCC1701]

Someone has to pay for something they do not want and will never use, see thats the problem with any form of socialized medicine.... in reality one size never fits all.

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

hey I am all for understanding reality and making practical decisions, that is why I hate progressives.

Progressive think 85 year old people at the nursing homes should get full code life saving treatment, because that is their 'right'. Progressives also think heroin addicts deserve the exact same top of the line care that productive people get and pay for with their own hard work. In short the progressive vision is a financially dystopian and very unfair regressive model of full egalitarianism, which is a vile vision for us all.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Idiocy.
I havent had cancer yet. If I do in the future then the NHS is there for me.

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

hey I am all for understanding reality and making practical decisions, that is why I hate progressives.

Progressive think 85 year old people at the nursing homes should get full code life saving treatment, because that is their 'right'. Progressives also think heroin addicts deserve the exact same top of the line care that productive people get and pay for with their own hard work. In short the progressive vision is a financially dystopian and very unfair regressive model of full egalitarianism, which is a vile vision for us all.

Ah so there are death panels and it's not because of the ACA!! It's you guys!!

 

[JQPublic1]

Dishonest *****, now you deem SAFE CARE the most all most important variable and throw out another meaningless report. I don't disagree with the report, you do. The report said the US had more effective care, period.

M'am, please get a hold of yourself and refrain from using profanity. I am one of the few righteous conservatives left. Perhaps once upon a time you too shared the same morality and values I do, but; presently, you have slid into the gutter with other fallen souls seduced by the lure of Trump's brand of Populism. Take my hand and allow me to lead you back to the path of righteousness.

Your crawling days are over. get off your knees. and stop paying homage to Trump..You must learn to walk again: I will assist you in taking those first baby steps:

The REPAWT:

Please excuse my English accent but want to be clear. Which "repawt" are you referring to? I'll assume it is the "repawt " generated by the CF. Here is my response to your inane claim that the repawt indicated the US had more effective care, period: Read and run....run for your literary life for I am bringing truth and light to this thread even as the darkness and the agents working within it scatter before the might of truth's light! Heh heh heh! : BEHOLDDDDD!:


ABSTRACT

The United States health care system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the U.S. underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. Among the 11 nations studied in this report—Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last, as it did in prior editions of Mirror, Mirror. The United Kingdom ranks first, followed closely by Switzerland. Since the data in this study were collected, the U.S. has made significant strides adopting health information technology and undertaking payment and delivery system reforms spurred by the Affordable Care Act. Continued implementation of the law could further encourage more affordable access and more efficient organi- zation and delivery of health care, and allow investment in preventive and population health measures that could improve the performance of the U.S. health care system.

 

[GHook93]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

When you get to 65 are you going to say no to Medicare? Doubtful.

There is a difference between the hospitals being run by the government like the VA and the payments to the private healthcare by the government such as Canada's single payer system.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[NCC1701]

No one should be forced to pay for what "might" happen... that is no way to live.

The rest of us should not be forced to pay for it when it does happen because you were to irresponsible to plan for it. Don't conservatives constantly bleat about personal responsibility? Do you wait until you have an auto accident to gat auto insurance?

There's a difference between "You should do this" and "We're going to force you to". And since when have conservatives EVER suggested that other people should pick up the tab for someone else's bad choices?

It has nothing to do with what conservatives may or may not have said. It has to do with reality. Know what that is.? Not -alt reality. REALITY . When people don't have insurance, they don't get preventive care. They get sicker than they would have been, go to the ER-where care is very expensive-and get charity care . They go on disability. They stop paying taxes. They are no longer productive. Who the hell do you thing pays for all of that?

hey I am all for understanding reality and making practical decisions, that is why I hate progressives.

Progressive think 85 year old people at the nursing homes should get full code life saving treatment, because that is their 'right'. Progressives also think heroin addicts deserve the exact same top of the line care that productive people get and pay for with their own hard work. In short the progressive vision is a financially dystopian and very unfair regressive model of full egalitarianism, which is a vile vision for us all.

Ah so there are death panels and it's not because of the ACA!! It's you guys!!

death panels have existed since humans became humans, they are called families, once again a dumb progressive reveals that they are clueless about reality

 

[GHook93]

The fact remains any sort of socialism socialist medicine happens to be dozens of people taking out as compared to only one to a few paying in. No socialist entitlement program has worked in the history of the United States… Long-term

Don't know about the US. All I do know is that works in the three places I have lived (UK, NZ and Australia)..

It works in other places like Israel and Canada also.


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