So you want better paying jobs?

Boss

Take a Memo:
Apr 21, 2012
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We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.
 
Dear Boss where I believe we can try to generate jobs, and have capital or assets to back up the payment for them, is taking all the old debts and damages charged to taxpayers, assess responsibility and identify which cases can be collected on by the corporate or govt agents responsible for the losses/waste/abuses at taxpayer expense,
and issue credits against those debts to reimburse taxpayers for "expenses we already paid but went to unauthorized costs or unlawful/unconstitutional policies". Then either issues notes against those debts and use the "capital" to invest in restoration work to solve the problem that each case is about. If the wrongdoers have a plan to pay back the debt over time, then the notes are backed by their capital and labor/resources.

If not, if the taxpayers or investors are needed to pay these amounts, then I suggest agreeing what property or programs to hold as collateral against the debts, and whoever invests the money to make good on the debt owns shares in the collateral. Or pay investors interest and charge THAT cost (plus legal fees) to the wrongdoers who ran up the charges instead of costing taxpayers for the abuses or crimes/corruption of others.

We can create jobs correcting govt abuse, corruption and waste.

A. Example: For the 1.6 billion in taxes used to bail out bad junk bonds used to seize Headwaters Forest in CA in a hostile corporate takeover of Pacific Lumber by MAXXAM corporation, the cost of restoring the endangered redwood forest and river ecosystem and wildlife can be assessed as the VALUE of that property. Then claim it as a national forest and landmark, where the cost of environmental restoration and maintenance is held as the value to issue notes against to PAY for the work to be done between experts in each field and student interns earning their degrees and/or work-study credits.

B. I already cited the Freedmen's Town case of millions of dollars abused to destroy national history. By declaring the 40 blocks to be a campus to be owned and managed for the purpose of restoring the history and generating funds to pay back the costs, this can also be held as collateral by investors claiming ownership.

C. Jobs for Veterans in govt service can be created in both environment and historic restoration, as well as reforming the VA, health care, postal service, prison and immigration.
http://www.earnedamnesty.org
 
I don't really understand the circumstances of the specific cases you are talking about or exactly what your idea is with regard to credits for abuse and corruption or corporate fraud. I should hope that US courts award monetary settlements when possible to those who were shafted but I honestly don't think there is any way to recover money our Congress authorized to "bail out" anything... that's water under the bridge now.

I am a free market capitalist, not a corporatist. Crony capitalism is a major problem in our country and it needs to be stopped. I don't want the government picking winners and losers and I don't think I want to give them authority to "go after" companies they don't like or who some special interest cries and complains about. Leave the government out of corporate affairs other than oversight to prevent and punish fraud. Protect the air, water and food supply.... protect the environment from known threats (not made up AGW theory where CO2 is a 'pollutant') preserve natural wildlife habitats whenever possible... those are all fine by me... no problem.
 
I would rather pay $200 bucks for a pair of levis made by an American worker, then the paper thin ones they sell today for $60 bucks.
This is a thought that could start a massive conversation.

First of all, I agree - quantity over quality has made us the throw-away culture, and it has spread virtually everywhere throughout our society. We think having eight cheap shirts is somehow better than two good shirts, that we just can't be happy with a 42" big screen, it has to be 60", a Hummer is better to have than a Ford, on and on and on.

Look at the lead-up to the Meltdown - people mortgaging their homes to the hilt (or above) to get cash to buy more shit. Or to pay off credit cards with which they had bought shit, only to run them back up buying more shit. We fill our homes with shit, and it just makes us want more shit, because we think that will somehow make us more happy.

I think a vast majority of this country's problems are cultural at their base, and this is at or near the top of the list.

.
 
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Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.

Interesting, socialism doesn't work, Marx is evil, only the free market can provide etc....

But you're promoting tariffs, which is interfering with the holy free market, as the solution.

Seriously?

:coffee:
 
Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.

Interesting, socialism doesn't work, Marx is evil, only the free market can provide etc....

But you're promoting tariffs, which is interfering with the holy free market, as the solution.

Seriously?

:coffee:

Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market other than to make American companies more able to compete, creating more jobs, thus, higher wages.

It WILL increase consumer cost of certain items... We can't have $20 made in America keyboards as I explained in my example. We'll have to give up having cheap shit and re-acquaint ourselves again to durable American-made products. I don't think that is a bad thing.
 
Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market other than to make American companies more able to compete, creating more jobs, thus, higher wages.

It WILL increase consumer cost of certain items... We can't have $20 made in America keyboards as I explained in my example. We'll have to give up having cheap shit and re-acquaint ourselves again to durable American-made products. I don't think that is a bad thing.

It's not that I disagree with you but I find it ironic that champions of the free market want the goverment to interfere with that same free market because it isn't working as planned.

Besides, you do realize that all the wealthy "job creators" of that same free market are promoting new "free" trade deals like TTP/TTIP, right?

:banana:
 
Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market

they certainly do

if things are too expensive people quit buying things

and what if it caused china to recall its loans

raising some tariffs could have an explosive effect on the local markets
 
Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market other than to make American companies more able to compete, creating more jobs, thus, higher wages.

It WILL increase consumer cost of certain items... We can't have $20 made in America keyboards as I explained in my example. We'll have to give up having cheap shit and re-acquaint ourselves again to durable American-made products. I don't think that is a bad thing.

It's not that I disagree with you but I find it ironic that champions of the free market want the goverment to interfere with that same free market because it isn't working as planned.

Besides, you do realize that all the wealthy "job creators" of that same free market are promoting new "free" trade deals like TTP/TTIP, right?

:banana:

But I don't want them to interfere with the free market. We're not in a free market with China. We import things from China and export things to them... that's not free market, that's a trade deal we made with China, a non-free market, non-capitalist country. OUR system is free market capitalism.

And no, free market capitalists don't want TTP/TTIP and didn't want NAFTA or WTO. The people you are calling "job creators" are crony corporatists who use power and influence in Washington to leverage an advantage over others... again... not free market capitalists.

Job creation only comes through a demand for labor. There are no magic "job creator" fairies out there who sit around creating jobs for people. Big companies aren't looking around thinking... well, things are kinda bad, let's create some jobs! Presidents and politicians don't wave magic wands and make new jobs materialize or pass bills that suddenly blossom new jobs. Government can offer incentives to create new jobs... sometimes that works. But primarily, there has to be a demand for labor and something has to drive that demand.
 
Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market

they certainly do

if things are too expensive people quit buying things

and what if it caused china to recall its loans

raising some tariffs could have an explosive effect on the local markets

Nope.. doesn't effect our free market economy at all. If we did NO trade with China, our free market economy would survive just as it did for the years before we had trade with China.

China has no leverage on the loans. They can, as you say, "recall" them... I guess you mean, demand we pay up... but let's play that scenario out... We refuse to pay up... then what? As you see, there is nothing much they can do about that. So stop shaking in your boots over China.

MOST of our trade problem stems from idiot politicians who are thinking like you... Oh, we can't piss them off... things may get bad for us... gotta keep them happy! Well it has cost us our manufacturing sector and millions of American jobs... how long do you want to try and appease China?

if things are too expensive people quit buying things

Actually... No, they don't. When gas was approaching $5 a gallon, people still bought gas. Now... people may cut back, they may buy less, they may only buy what they really need... but again, that's how free market capitalism works. Free market capitalists are constantly competing with each other for dollars from consumers, looking for ways to appeal to them, offering options they might like better... it happens every day.
 
Tariffs do not "interfere" with the domestic free market

they certainly do

if things are too expensive people quit buying things

and what if it caused china to recall its loans

raising some tariffs could have an explosive effect on the local markets

Nope.. doesn't effect our free market economy at all. If we did NO trade with China, our free market economy would survive just as it did for the years before we had trade with China.

China has no leverage on the loans. They can, as you say, "recall" them... I guess you mean, demand we pay up... but let's play that scenario out... We refuse to pay up... then what? As you see, there is nothing much they can do about that. So stop shaking in your boots over China.

MOST of our trade problem stems from idiot politicians who are thinking like you... Oh, we can't piss them off... things may get bad for us... gotta keep them happy! Well it has cost us our manufacturing sector and millions of American jobs... how long do you want to try and appease China?

if things are too expensive people quit buying things

Actually... No, they don't. When gas was approaching $5 a gallon, people still bought gas. Now... people may cut back, they may buy less, they may only buy what they really need... but again, that's how free market capitalism works. Free market capitalists are constantly competing with each other for dollars from consumers, looking for ways to appeal to them, offering options they might like better... it happens every day.


Nope.. doesn't effect our free market economy at all

now we know you are not to be taken seriously at all
 
But I don't want them to interfere with the free market. We're not in a free market with China. We import things from China and export things to them... that's not free market, that's a trade deal we made with China, a non-free market, non-capitalist country. OUR system is free market capitalism.

I think we have a different definition of what a free market is. I've got news for you, China is full of capitalists, they may call themselves communist but they really love $$$ and will do anything to get more $$$.

It's impossible to claim that you have a free market and close your borders to competition at the same time.
And no, free market capitalists don't want TTP/TTIP and didn't want NAFTA or WTO. The people you are calling "job creators" are crony corporatists who use power and influence in Washington to leverage an advantage over others... again... not free market capitalists.

Nice to see we agree about the crony capitalists who run Washington. Funny thing, those are the same people that claim to be in favor of the "free" market, just like you.
Job creation only comes through a demand for labor. There are no magic "job creator" fairies out there who sit around creating jobs for people. Big companies aren't looking around thinking... well, things are kinda bad, let's create some jobs! Presidents and politicians don't wave magic wands and make new jobs materialize or pass bills that suddenly blossom new jobs. Government can offer incentives to create new jobs... sometimes that works. But primarily, there has to be a demand for labor and something has to drive that demand.

Indeed, there has to be demand for jobs to create them. What do you think would happen if the government invested a few $trillion to fix the crumbling infrastructure system instead of wasting it to liberate "moderate" jihadis on the other side of the planet?

:smoke:
 
The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether.
I was thinking along similar lines myself.
My idea, though, is to put corporate taxes on a "sliding scale" based on the number of U.S. employees.
For example, multi-national U.S.-based corporations that have a larger percentage of outsourced workers (call centers in India, factories in Mexico, etc.) would be hit with tax penalties, while ones that have a higher percentage of workers here in the U.S. would gain tax credits based on that percentage. Higher percentages each way would result in more penalties/credits, possibly with a midpoint around 65-70% (U.S. v. foreign employees).
There could even be a one-time substantial tax credit for a company bringing a large number of jobs back to the U.S.
U.S. businesses with no international branches would only be subjected to a fair, competitive tax rate with no penalties/credits involved.
 
...

Look at the lead-up to the Meltdown - people mortgaging their homes to the hilt (or above) to get cash to buy more shit. Or to pay off credit cards with which they had bought shit, only to run them back up buying more shit. We fill our homes with shit, and it just makes us want more shit, because we think that will somehow make us more happy.

I think a vast majority of this country's problems are cultural at their base, and this is at or near the top of the list.

.

You just described the plight of a good friend of mine.

Got married to a younger woman, together they ran up their credit cards, got a debt consolidation loan to pay them off, and then ran then up again. Might have done that twice.

And then she left him.

Last time I checked he was still upside down in that house.

He is fucked. Royally fucked.
 
But I don't want them to interfere with the free market. We're not in a free market with China. We import things from China and export things to them... that's not free market, that's a trade deal we made with China, a non-free market, non-capitalist country. OUR system is free market capitalism.

I think we have a different definition of what a free market is. I've got news for you, China is full of capitalists, they may call themselves communist but they really love $$$ and will do anything to get more $$$.

It's impossible to claim that you have a free market and close your borders to competition at the same time.
And no, free market capitalists don't want TTP/TTIP and didn't want NAFTA or WTO. The people you are calling "job creators" are crony corporatists who use power and influence in Washington to leverage an advantage over others... again... not free market capitalists.

Nice to see we agree about the crony capitalists who run Washington. Funny thing, those are the same people that claim to be in favor of the "free" market, just like you.
Job creation only comes through a demand for labor. There are no magic "job creator" fairies out there who sit around creating jobs for people. Big companies aren't looking around thinking... well, things are kinda bad, let's create some jobs! Presidents and politicians don't wave magic wands and make new jobs materialize or pass bills that suddenly blossom new jobs. Government can offer incentives to create new jobs... sometimes that works. But primarily, there has to be a demand for labor and something has to drive that demand.

Indeed, there has to be demand for jobs to create them. What do you think would happen if the government invested a few $trillion to fix the crumbling infrastructure system instead of wasting it to liberate "moderate" jihadis on the other side of the planet?

:smoke:

You could certainly have a free internal market with high tariffs, vs outside trade.

And CHina is not full of Free Market Capitalists.

They are operating more from Mercantilism.
 
We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.
The problem with your argument is that we don't have free market capitalism in our economy; thus, your fallacy of false Cause.
 
We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.
The problem with your argument is that we don't have free market capitalism in our economy; thus, your fallacy of false Cause.

Compared to our external trade, our internal trade is certainly RELATIVELY Free.

THe point is valid despite our internal market not being PURELY Free.
 
You could certainly have a free internal market with high tariffs, vs outside trade.

And CHina is not full of Free Market Capitalists.

They are operating more from Mercantilism.

As I said before, you can't have a free market protected from outside competition. Those two ideas are mutually exclusive.

And I didn't say China was full of free market capitalists, they're not bothering with ideology at all. It all about the money, I bet Mao is spinning in his grave as we speak.

:alcoholic:
 
You could certainly have a free internal market with high tariffs, vs outside trade.

And CHina is not full of Free Market Capitalists.

They are operating more from Mercantilism.

As I said before, you can't have a free market protected from outside competition. Those two ideas are mutually exclusive.

And I didn't say China was full of free market capitalists, they're not bothering with ideology at all. It all about the money, I bet Mao is spinning in his grave as we speak.

:alcoholic:

Sure you can.

A internal market can operate from different rules from the outside market.


And as you say, China is not about Free Trade. They are not doing it with us, and we should not be doing it for them.
 

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