CDZ Should the state be able to force parents to change the sex of their children? This parent had to flee to save his son.

[JoeMoma]

Why

Why?

That's what parents do. They make decisions for their kids. As kids get older, parents give the kids more responsibility to make their own decisions, but parents retain "veto" power until the kids officially become adults. If you take away parents ability to make decisions for their kids, then you take away their ability to parent.

 

[Papageorgio]

Ahmed is 16.

In most states, that means he can marry.

If he can marry then why the hell can't he make his own determinations about his sexual identity?

Some states allow you to marry at 15, however in all states you can only marry under the age of 18 with parental cnsent, otherwise you wait until 18.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I think at 16, if the child is allowed to buy guns, marry, even with consent, and even become emancipated in some states, that child is old enough to have a say in his own medical decisions. If he wants to, and the parents don’t, who should the state support?

Not true.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

.

And he can own/possess an AR-15 and ammunition.

.​

He cannot own it. He can possess it, but you must be 18 to own it.

 

[Papageorgio]

Who said anything about with or without parental consent? My point stands. He can marry.

Sure with consent by parents. With a sex change operation which is much more permanent and much more intense should also be with parental consent until they are 18 and the parents are no longer responsible. If the state removes parental control and allows him to have the operation, then the state should bear the cost and responsibility from that moment on. As they are making the decisions rather than the parents. At that point, I believe the government is overstepping their authority and should be reeled in for abuse of power.

 

[BlackSand]

He cannot own it. He can possess it, but you must be 18 to own it.

.

There is no age restriction in Federal Statue in regard to owning/possessing an AR-15 and ammunition.

In some cases Minors cannot purchase an AR-15.
They can however receive one as a gift, and actually own it.

.​

 

[sartre play]

A the Planned Parenthood clinic they give parents a "choice" early in pregnancy whether to raise their child "as" a boy or girl — so with the "appropriate" treatment of anabolic steroids administered in utero via amniocentesis they can raise a girl, conceived with the XX chromosome pair, "as" a boy, force her to grow male genitalia, shrivel her ovaries, cause her to develop testicles, and "assign" a male biological sex to her at birth.

It can be done of course but it is more difficult and less desirable and pleasing for the ladies and gentlemen of the district to force a male fetus to grow up "as" female.

Remember it is especially women's sports we are talking about, even as Samson's hair was cut, and he was blinded and put in prison for the sport of women, and Samson at his death killed more Philistines than he did while alive, and judged Israel twenty years.

Complete rubbish. Its an over hyped topic, no need to add lies

 

[sartre play]

The parents.

There are a lot of crazy parents out there, SO no wonder there are a lot of confused children.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

.

There is no age restriction in Federal Statue in regard to owning/possessing an AR-15 and ammunition.

In some cases Minors cannot purchase an AR-15.
They can however receive one as a gift, and actually own it.

.​

Wrong answer.

Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) and (b)(2); 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

Now, you were saying what?

 

[ClaireH]

Hopefully, these parents that are consenting are fully aware regarding logical thought development … not fully developed until age 25 for most adults. Since we didn’t have this biological information until relatively recently, there was no way to know when these laws were developed pertaining to minority versus adult status. Now? We know.

“Brain maturation during adolescence (ages 10–24 years) could be governed by several factors, as illustrated in Figure 1. It may be influenced by heredity and environment, prenatal and postnatal insult, nutritional status, sleep patterns, pharmacotherapy, and surgical interventions during early childhood. Furthermore, physical, mental, economical, and psychological stress; drug abuse (caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol); and sex hormones including estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone can influence the development and maturation of the adolescent brain. MRI studies have suggested that neurocircuitry and myelinogenesis remain under construction during adolescence because these events in the central nervous system (CNS) are transcriptionally regulated by sex hormones that are specifically increased during puberty.”

Maturation of the adolescent brain - PMC

Adolescence is the developmental epoch during which children become adults – intellectually, physically, hormonally, and socially. Adolescence is a tumultuous time, full of changes and transformations. The pubertal transition to adulthood involves ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Any parent who knows the above information but ignores it, needs a refresher course about want versus need. The wants of an adolescent (regardless of what comes out of their mouths about knowing it all) can be different than their needs.

 

[ClaireH]

Sure with consent by parents. With a sex change operation which is much more permanent and much more intense should also be with parental consent until they are 18 and the parents are no longer responsible. If the state removes parental control and allows him to have the operation, then the state should bear the cost and responsibility from that moment on. As they are making the decisions rather than the parents. At that point, I believe the government is overstepping their authority and should be reeled in for abuse of power.

Reading your thoughts quite carefully Papageorigo, there might be concern about a certain subset of the government planning just that - to take over decisions that parents are currently making. There is evidence that members of the extreme leftists would embrace government control over adolescent decisions, if allowed.

 

[BlackSand]

Wrong answer.

Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) and (b)(2); 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

Now, you were saying what?

.

No it isn't ,... Read your link, and it doesn't address ownership.
You can purchase one for a minor as a gift (or the minor can inherit one) and they will own it.

You won't find a link to what you are looking for because it doesn't exist ...


.​

 

[Coyote]

Not true.

Which part?

 

[Coyote]

Reading your thoughts quite carefully Papageorigo, there might be concern about a certain subset of the government planning just that - to take over decisions that parents are currently making. There is evidence that members of the extreme leftists would embrace government control over adolescent decisions, if allowed.

Take over decisions like these? Are the parents right? What rights do the minors have to accept or refuse treatment?

These Parents Lost Custody Of Their Toddler With Cancer After Refusing To Continue His Chemotherapy

Doctors told BuzzFeed News chemotherapy is the only viable choice for the child's survival.

www.buzzfeednews.com

Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ

The Followers of Christ is a religious sect that preaches faith healing in states such as Idaho, which offers a faith-based shield for felony crimes – despite alarming child mortality rates among these groups

www.theguardian.com

Why a 17-year-old with cancer is being forced to undergo chemo against her will

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

If an adult made a decision to halt treatment, courts would not intervene. But with minors, the system works differently: parents or guardians have the final say over what type of medical treatment occurs. That is, unless the courts rule the patient a mature minor.

This comes to the mature minor doctrine, a legal concept with variations in each state that acknowledges it. The mature minor doctrine acknowledges that an unemancipated minor may be mature enough to move forward with or reject a health care treatment. Cassandra and her mother argued that her status as a mature minor should have been considered by the court before DCF took custody.

Many instances of minors turning away cancer care come from religious or spiritual beliefs. Young Jehovah's Witnesses have refused life-saving treatments because of their religious beliefs, and courts have respected those decisions. In 2007, 14-year-old Dennis Lindberg died of leukemia after refusing to undergo life-saving blood transfusions. As a Jehovah's Witness, he didn't want to receive blood as the practice is banned in the faith. In that case, a judge ruled Lindberg had the right to make that decision for himself.

 

[Coyote]

Sure with consent by parents. With a sex change operation which is much more permanent and much more intense should also be with parental consent until they are 18 and the parents are no longer responsible. If the state removes parental control and allows him to have the operation, then the state should bear the cost and responsibility from that moment on. As they are making the decisions rather than the parents. At that point, I believe the government is overstepping their authority and should be reeled in for abuse of power.

I am having doubts about tbe veracity of the OP. Everything I can find indicates that in order to perform the surgery, the person must at least 18 and meet a number of conditions. Puberty blockers might be used, but hormone therapy is likewise restricted (all of which I agree with).

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....

Here is the story...

Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.

“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.

At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
---------
The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.

But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:

“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”

Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.

Amazon product ASIN B07YL6XK55
Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?

The lawyer is full of shit and generating revenue for his business.

The father should consider listening to professionals, instead of to his evil God or his large intestine.

 

[BlackSand]

I am having doubts about tbe veracity of the OP. Everything I can find indicates that in order to perform the surgery, the person must at least 18 and meet a number of conditions. Puberty blockers might be used, but hormone therapy is likewise restricted (all of which I agree with).

.

I found an article about a California law that mentions children as young as 12 receiving hormone treatments without parental consent.

Closer review of the article and text also emphasizes the concern and legislation focusing more on foster children though.
The foster parents have no say-so, and the child can proceed without parental consent ... Costs covered by Med-Cal.

Other reviews also indicate that surgery is an entirely different matter and can carry restrictions as high as 25 years old.
There is also an arduous standard and process, that actually makes a person eligible for surgery below a certain age.
That process/policy would usually disqualify a candidate until a later age, if it was truly followed to its intent.

. ​

 

[Coyote]

.

I found an article about a California law that mentions children as young as 12 receiving hormone treatments without parental consent.

Closer review of the article and text also emphasizes the concern and legislation focusing more on foster children though.
The foster parents have no say-so, and the child can proceed without parental consent ... Costs covered by Med-Cal.

Other reviews also indicate that surgery is an entirely different matter and can carry restrictions as high as 25 years old.
There is also an arduous standard and process, that actually makes a person eligible for surgery below a certain age.
That process/policy would usually disqualify a candidate until a later age, if it was truly followed to its intent.

. ​

Is it hormone treatments or puberty blockers?

 

[BlackSand]

Is it hormone treatments or puberty blockers?

.

There was some discussion of puberty blockers, but not directly in concert with references to hormone treatments.
It was hard to tell (from the different sources) if the categories don't overlap in definition ... And I am not a doctor.

There was an article from Australia indicating hormone treatments (specifically identified as such) could be used on a child of any age.
But ... It was more about the medical community's recommendation (cited board approved Physicians and Scientists).
It specifically didn't discuss legislative or regulatory concerns.

I also wasn't familiar with the source, and the same comments were not found in other articles.
The only concrete consensus I could find about hormone treatments, and across the board ...
Is that they should be stopped for a considerable period prior to surgery.

Summary ... There is a lot of information, and it's all pretty muddy ...

.​

 

[ClaireH]

Take over decisions like these? Are the parents right? What rights do the minors have to accept or refuse treatment?

These Parents Lost Custody Of Their Toddler With Cancer After Refusing To Continue His Chemotherapy

Doctors told BuzzFeed News chemotherapy is the only viable choice for the child's survival.

www.buzzfeednews.com

Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ

The Followers of Christ is a religious sect that preaches faith healing in states such as Idaho, which offers a faith-based shield for felony crimes – despite alarming child mortality rates among these groups

www.theguardian.com

Why a 17-year-old with cancer is being forced to undergo chemo against her will

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...

www.vox.com

If an adult made a decision to halt treatment, courts would not intervene. But with minors, the system works differently: parents or guardians have the final say over what type of medical treatment occurs. That is, unless the courts rule the patient a mature minor.

This comes to the mature minor doctrine, a legal concept with variations in each state that acknowledges it. The mature minor doctrine acknowledges that an unemancipated minor may be mature enough to move forward with or reject a health care treatment. Cassandra and her mother argued that her status as a mature minor should have been considered by the court before DCF took custody.

Many instances of minors turning away cancer care come from religious or spiritual beliefs. Young Jehovah's Witnesses have refused life-saving treatments because of their religious beliefs, and courts have respected those decisions. In 2007, 14-year-old Dennis Lindberg died of leukemia after refusing to undergo life-saving blood transfusions. As a Jehovah's Witness, he didn't want to receive blood as the practice is banned in the faith. In that case, a judge ruled Lindberg had the right to make that decision for himself.

Coyote, let’s not lose the baby in that dirty bathwater. (I like that you can jump out of box though, because I do that all the time!) I’ll address your points before going back to gender surgery, and why adolescents might change their mind post-surgery.

The cases where the kids die because caregivers denied life-saving treatment is not anything remotely like elective gender surgery. I tried to connect those dots, but I don’t see it.

I watched a documentary about parents who refused life-saving treatment (kidney transplant with available donor) for their child. These cases are absolutely heartbreaking. Placing their religious views over the life of their child, I’d be pretty sure I was in the wrong church, but that’s just me.

One thing we have in common, and most readers on this thread, is that we care about these kids, right? I agree that kids have rights, all humans have rights. But with permanent gender surgery, until an adult is able to fully grasp the short/middle/long term treatment requirements, and continued need for medical visits, this is a no-brainer.

It is a hard follow-through for bio males and females to maintain adequate hormone levels and this regime impacts brain development.

There are many girls who need hormone therapy following puberty to minimize monthly cramping, regulating erratic periods etc. That’s outside of this discussion box, however, since the levels are minimal compared to what’s needed for gender transition. They’ll be more studies come out about risk factors as we learn more.

Gender surgery should not be something that teens consider to be “just another option to explore”, but this is happening. As you know, peer influence maxes out and peaks during adolescence. Most teens cannot even imagine that they will not be with these same friends forever and ever. I thought the same thing back then! Ha

Example: a new, shy girl befriends a small group of girls at her new school. One girl wants to have gender surgery and that’s all she talks about. The new girl has been sheltered and given very little attention during her formative years, and notices how much attention this new friend is getting. Knowing how middle school girls are, that new girl (who lacks self-awareness and confidence) could consider it as an optional attention getter. Most wouldn’t go beyond that, but some would. Preteens are even more gullible. This needs to be part of the conversation.